General MODO Cube Redesign

[Maha]

Vamps aside, a bunch of other decisions strike me as odd in this update:

- Brain Maggot and Mesmeric Fiend are both solid cards that lead to interesting decisions. Lifebane Zombie is maindeckable, and great when it hits. Black Sun's Zenith to Crux of Fate seems like a downgrade. I won't miss black's aggro package, but I'll miss those.
- Removing Show and Tell/Eureka/Grim seems fine enough, but now the Eldrazi are stranded.
- I don't know about giving blue, the strongest color, three upgrades.
- Nerfing red seems reasonable, but I wouldn't cut Inferno Titan. He's very satisfying to play, easy to stop and rewards more late-game strategies with red.
- Why would you ever cut Awakening Zone? It's a unique card that presents lots of decisions, rewards good play and supports token strategies. It's worlds more interesting than these land auras or another land untapper.
- Is it really necessary to cut Jitte? I think I agree with 2013 Jason Waddell in this article when he says it's an exciting card that you can still very much lose with. If the concern are "autopick" cards, I've certainly cut more Jittes than Wurmcoils or Batterskulls from my decks.

I've actually been planning my first (proxy, singleton) cube based on the Legacy cube, so any comments would be much appreciated.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Welcome!

Agree with you re the black cards, though BSZ vs crux is defendable. You also need to remember they try to put new cards in from recent sets as marketing.

I've cut inferno Titan for power reasons but don't think I'm in the majority. I think Jitte is pretty miserable to play against and have removed it. All depends on your wider environment of course but mine is lower/flatter power level.

 

[Karl]

Oh wow, I didn't realise the Eldrazi were still in. That's actually insane, that means they are dead cards almost ALL the time. WOW.

 

[Maha]

Oh wow, I didn't realise the Eldrazi were still in. That's actually insane, that means they are dead cards almost ALL the time. WOW.

I guess the color for them is now actually red, with Sneak Attack/Through The Breach, which is kind of an interesting direction.

 

[CML]

yuck what terrible design with the eldrazi.

inferno titan is sweet and there is no reason to cut him because Red cards by definition can never be overpowered.

to be honest i didn't look in depth at the updates except the vamps catastrophuck but i am not surprised the entire thing is more lol than i could have imagined

 

[Jason Waddell]

Vamps aside, a bunch of other decisions strike me as odd in this update:

- Brain Maggot and Mesmeric Fiend are both solid cards that lead to interesting decisions. Lifebane Zombie is maindeckable, and great when it hits. Black Sun's Zenith to Crux of Fate seems like a downgrade. I won't miss black's aggro package, but I'll miss those.
- Removing Show and Tell/Eureka/Grim seems fine enough, but now the Eldrazi are stranded.
- I don't know about giving blue, the strongest color, three upgrades.
- Nerfing red seems reasonable, but I wouldn't cut Inferno Titan. He's very satisfying to play, easy to stop and rewards more late-game strategies with red.
- Why would you ever cut Awakening Zone? It's a unique card that presents lots of decisions, rewards good play and supports token strategies. It's worlds more interesting than these land auras or another land untapper.
- Is it really necessary to cut Jitte? I think I agree with 2013 Jason Waddell in this article when he says it's an exciting card that you can still very much lose with. If the concern are "autopick" cards, I've certainly cut more Jittes than Wurmcoils or Batterskulls from my decks.

I've actually been planning my first (proxy, singleton) cube based on the Legacy cube, so any comments would be much appreciated.

This is a great summary. I agree with everything you said.

Awakening Zone is a little low on the power scale, though, even though it's a favorite of mine.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Vamps aside, a bunch of other decisions strike me as odd in this update:

- Brain Maggot and Mesmeric Fiend are both solid cards that lead to interesting decisions. Lifebane Zombie is maindeckable, and great when it hits. Black Sun's Zenith to Crux of Fate seems like a downgrade. I won't miss black's aggro package, but I'll miss those.
- Removing Show and Tell/Eureka/Grim seems fine enough, but now the Eldrazi are stranded.
- I don't know about giving blue, the strongest color, three upgrades.
- Nerfing red seems reasonable, but I wouldn't cut Inferno Titan. He's very satisfying to play, easy to stop and rewards more late-game strategies with red.
- Why would you ever cut Awakening Zone? It's a unique card that presents lots of decisions, rewards good play and supports token strategies. It's worlds more interesting than these land auras or another land untapper.
- Is it really necessary to cut Jitte? I think I agree with 2013 Jason Waddell in this article when he says it's an exciting card that you can still very much lose with. If the concern are "autopick" cards, I've certainly cut more Jittes than Wurmcoils or Batterskulls from my decks.

I've actually been planning my first (proxy, singleton) cube based on the Legacy cube, so any comments would be much appreciated.

Though it may be weaker than batterskull or wurmcoil, it's more public. People think Jitte is better, and convincing them otherwise takes enough work that it's probably more profitable to just cave here.

I think Crux is miles better than zenith though

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Maybe I'm an outlier, but my cube has produced 3-0 decks that don't run any cards over 3cc, nevermind the less specialized aggro decks that don't want cards over 4cc. Cards like Batterskull and Wurcoil not only have no place in those decks, they are often irrelevant against them. Personally, I feel that Jitte is the warping card. It goes in more decks and dismantles more decks.

Not that I want Batterskull or Wurmcoil anywhere near my cube or anything, I just think Jitte ruins more games.

 

[Maha]

I think Crux is miles better than zenith though

Why is that? It seems to me like the option to cast on turn 3-4 against aggro and also getting rid of Persist has got to be better than killing a few more fatties during the midgame (for which there's a bunch of spot removal in the cube anyway). The dragon option seems unlikely to matter too, as you don't really want to be playing any of them.

 

[Eric Chan]

It's mostly that Infest/Drown in Sorrow aren't very efficient sweepers, and Black Sun's Zenith is a full turn slower than either of these. And when you go up to five mana for a sweeper, you generally want to be clearing the board. If you're staring down a midrange green opponent with Obstinate Baloth, Polukranos, and other assorted beef, you'll want the nuclear option.

 

[Meltyman]

Why do they add Pack Rat... that card has no interesting value in a cube.
Most of the time the best decision is just to make rats until your opponent has died...

 

[Jason Waddell]

Why do they add Pack Rat... that card has no interesting value in a cube.
Most of the time the best decision is just to make rats until your opponent has died...

When I had it in my cube, it usually didn't work that way exactly, but it was never a very "interesting" card, so I'm fine with chopping it.

The two most common cases (packrat overrunning the board / dying to 1-for-1 removal) aren't all that compelling.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

It's a discard outlet for reanimator that can also do good in other decks. It's an alright aggro card and a potential control wincon! I like it

 

[Chris Taylor]

Why is that? It seems to me like the option to cast on turn 3-4 against aggro and also getting rid of Persist has got to be better than killing a few more fatties during the midgame (for which there's a bunch of spot removal in the cube anyway). The dragon option seems unlikely to matter too, as you don't really want to be playing any of them.

It's mostly that Infest/Drown in Sorrow aren't very efficient sweepers, and Black Sun's Zenith is a full turn slower than either of these. And when you go up to five mana for a sweeper, you generally want to be clearing the board. If you're staring down a midrange green opponent with Obstinate Baloth, Polukranos, and other assorted beef, you'll want the nuclear option.

Essentially this. The flexibility is not worth it not being a wrath to me. Sure, black sun's zenith can sweep the board, but it's never efficient and often it's unable to. It's absolute garbage against anything played on curve.

It's probably alright if a lot of the creatures in a cube have toughness lower than thier CMC, or the critical toughness is like 2 or something, but with a critical toughness that low basically all dividable burn is waaaaaay too strong (See arc trail essentially being a mythic in SoM Draft)

 

[Lucre]

I quite like packrat in a number of riptide cubes because usually removal keeps up with it pretty well, you don't have access to 4 vaults and most only let you play slow value gaveyard strategies and not outright reanimator, so its nice to have another vector of attack / something that can attack and block better than a looter lol.

 

[Jonas]

I liked pack rat when I had it in my cube, but I'm biased since I had one amazing game with it against a living death deck.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I like pack rat in principle, especially the way to put cards into the graveyard, though it is too often removal or die to be interesting in a non power max cube.

 

[Lucre]

I'm pretty dubious about how often it's removal or die, like by the time you have your pack rat chugging your opponent should have their own shit going on, it's 3 mana and a card to do stuff with it and players play cards that provide value or have bodies above the curve in cube. Like I've had stagnant games with packrat in cube, but they were winable and like the sort of value creature vs value creature games that get stagnant anyway.

 

[Lucre]

I don't understand people who like brain maggot. a 2 mana 1/1 that makes them use a removal spell on the card that shouldn't be in your deck?

Am I the only one here that sees fiends primary use as:

A) Removing the removal spell from their hand to short term advantage and possible even getting to make use of the 1/1 body
B) Expensive trick thoughtsieze

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I don't understand people who like brain maggot. a 2 mana 1/1 that makes them use a removal spell on the card that shouldn't be in your deck?

You run it as a curve disruptor in aggro-disruption/aggro control/tempo decks.

It also has interesting synergy with sac. outlets.

 

[Lucre]

Wait fiend is the only one that does anything interesting with sac outlets right? I love fiend and hate maggot.

You run it as a curve disruptor in aggro-disruption/aggro control/tempo decks.

It also has interesting synergy with sac. outlets.

like its so bad when they can just kill your dude in response it's like blarg and the body is sooooo irrelevant without tricks

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, thats one thing I like about it: people will misplay it and try to use it as an actual thoughtseize, and not as a disruptive piece to use in conjunction with existing ground pressure.

There is also a power level issue of course. The more efficent your removal is, and the higher power your format is, the less relevant both the body and the disruption becomes.

 

[Tanner K.]

Brain maggot felt vaguely playable when I had a heavy enchantment theme, and felt terrible the rest of the time. I felt no remorse cutting it and Mesmiric Fiend.

 

[Lucre]

No I don't think removal is your best descriptor of power level lol. Usually when describing busted formats you aren't talking about how the threats were unequal to the removal lol. I know there were formats where control was dominant but still those tended to be very endgame formats and you could still play a variety of decks especially threat based decks supposed to undermine control metagamed decks. I don't think even CMU Blue was a dominant deck through several tournaments.

Like does your low power level format play a lot of cheap cards capable of making a 1/1 for 2 feel stupid and irrelevant? I kinda expect most of them have that and they probz start at the low cost of 1 mana.

Man I would totes call invasion block low power level by todays standards and god damn was the removal better than the creatures! Man does that format teach you that removal cant kill players so you have to take shit threats over removal.

Anyway if I'm removing "above the curve" or "value" creatures for their cost or more, I'm sorta just inherently losing because I'm not getting the chance to be proactive myself. Removal should keep up with threats and should probably always have some edge on them or you're baiting a number of macro problems. I know I've beaten this horse to death but that rhetoric (cheaper removal decides power level) always seems super #problematic to me and I am a magic SJW.

Anyway a sweet exercise is thinking about formats you found problematic and asking yourself who the real culprits were.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I don't really see where the cause for disagreement is. I started running both of them after I found fiend enjoyable in VMA.

Having an opponent choose between using their mana on curve or wasting a 2cc or greater removal spell on a 2cc 1/1 can be interesting. I also like the decision element it puts on the caster. The person they are targeting dosen't always have a removal spell, and it challenges the caster to really think how they imagine the rest of the game will play out, giving them a chance to make a play mistake.

I've always enjoyed playing it in those types of low power environments, because I love the types of decks it goes in: disruptive aggro. For 2 mana I not only get to add to my board, but I get a chance to outplay my opponent, and select the card that I think will most disrupt their strategy.

In those sorts of environments, the 1/1 body is also material. If you led with a 2/2 on turn 1, changing the clock from 2 damage a turn to 3 damage a turn is pretty good. In the pincher cube, its also nice with cards like mogg conscripts or goblin cohort. Those sorts of grindy low power enviornments can really care about 1 damage here and there.

Now, you might not like the types of environments where fiend/maggot would be good, but you asked a nebulous question, and this is where I've ran it and found it enjoyable.