Card/Deck Planeswalkers

Diakonov

Diakonov

Which ones are interesting?

Which ones are unfun?

How many is too many?

Here's what I'm currently running in my cube.

Mono-colored



I'm pretty happy with these. It also pleases me that it's the original lineup of characters. To further satisfy my cube OCD, I have one planeswalker in each guild. This is the questionable part.

Guild-colored



Other



I have no legitimate reasoning for including several of these besides wanting to reward each guild with a powerful gold card and (holds arms up defensively, wincing) because I enjoy the wonderful symmetry of it all. Although, as I see it, the only one in this list that might be too strong is Ajani Vengeant. But is this too many planeswalkers? What is the right number, and who are the right ones?

Planeswalkers bring some interesting gameplay to the table, though by the nature of the card type, they can also very easily be degenerate (particularly when played in clusters). For this reason, I have considered making a new rule: approximately one planeswalker per 45 cards.

What are everyone else's feelings on this topic?
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I like the planeswalker card type. I like how it combines incremental advantage with a focus on board play. I hate that there are so few that there isn't a lot of granularity with them. There is probably only one planeswalker that fits the niche you are looking for, so you better pray its the right mana cost/power level/color you need it to be or your out of luck.

I view them like I view any other card: they are there to serve a purpose. I probably run fewer of them then most people do (12), not because I don't like them, but because my demands tend to be fairly specific and most of them just don't do what I'm looking for. Or do it too well as to overshadow the themes involved (Elspeth, KE and Garruk Wildspeaker come to mind here).
 
yan

yan

annoying:
knight errant
suns champion
gideon jura
garruk relentless
primal hunter
sorin lord of innistrad
xenagos

planeswalkers are more managable now that creatures are better

i dont see ajani being too good. like consuming vapors level. cant -2 twice consecutively and doesnt tap
 
GenericZero

GenericZero

yan said:
annoying:
knight errant
suns champion
gideon jura
garruk relentless
primal hunter
sorin lord of innistrad
xenagos

planeswalkers are more managable now that creatures are better

i dont see ajani being too good. like consuming vapors level. cant -2 twice consecutively and doesnt tap
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with Relentless or Xenagos. Only tokens made unconditionally through +#s are a real issue.

As far as how many planeswalkers you should run? I'd say maybe 6-11 in a 360 cube. Depends on what you want.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I currently run (in a 450 cube):



Ooo, even less than FlowerSunRain! I do run a few powerful ones though, but have no problem cutting them if they represent a problem. In the past I cut Gideon Jura, Karn Liberated, Koth of the Hammer and Elspeth, Sun's Champion for precisely those reasons. I greatly dislike Ajani Vengeant's ultimate, it makes me want to rage-quit, but we'll see how that one pans out.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
the recent designs are so unattractive because they're so hard to interact with through combat, which is, you know, how cube games go. in that vein the best pw's in most cubes here are elspeth, knight-errant and elspeth, sun's champion (along with gideon jura). i'm pretty sure there's an old thread where we rank them in terms of power but my quick thought is that you could cut some of the guild ones, kiora vraska ral are the easy ones, and probably make a better environment. it's also criminal to not have garruk wildspeaker and i enjoy koth of the hammer too
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
CML said:
[...] but my quick thought is that you could cut some of the guild ones, kiora vraska ral are the easy ones, and probably make a better environment. [...]
Click to expand...

Are you saying not playing Kiora, Vraska and Ral make for a better environment? I actually like what those three planeswalkers bring to the table. None of them are overbearing the way the "best" planeswalkers are, though Kiora's ultimate is totally game-ending :)
 
Aston

Aston

At the moment I'm running

White: Elspeth Knight Errant, Gideon Jura, Ajani Goldmane and Ajani Caller of the Pride
Blue: Jace the Mind Sculptor, Jace Beleren and Tamiyo
Black: Liliana of the Veil and Liliana Vess
Red: Chandra Pyromaster, Chandra Firebrand, Chandra Nalaar and Koth
Green: Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Relentless and Garruk Primal Hunter
Multi: Venser, Tezzeret, Domri Rade and Ajani Vengeant
Colourless: Karn

In addition, the ways I have to kill planeswalkers:

Hero's Downfall, Maelstrom Pulse, Council's Judgement, Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Bramblecrush, Chaos Warp and Oblivion Stone
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

I laughed when I first saw Sarkhan Vol in Jason's cube. There's no it was good. This thing is garbage.

Then my friend drafted a Jund Zombies deck, stole my Primeval Titan with Sarkhan's minus, attacked me, then sacraficed it to Goblin Bombardment.

I've respected this guy as a solid Riptide-style inclusion ever since.
 
Lucre

Lucre

Seeing Steadfast always makes me think the person wants white to be as two dimensional and boring as possible. I'm not putting that on you, I just think it's kinda like cubing every anthem possible, it's just my #teensreact.

I think Relentless is probably the biggest new player bane there is out there and it's also just kinda awkward and bad.

Man multicolour walkers are such a mixed bag. Venser really puts me to sleep and kiora always makes me feel like there must be a better monocolour option. For 5 mana vraska will eventually destroy 2 permanents over a long period of time, if your opponent has let you get any other value from it, you should thank them profusely through the rest of the match.

Do people really hate good walkers now? I mean I feel like they are more important to some colours than others. They've had such an incredible impact on control I can hardly believe it.
 
yan

yan

tamiyo is mono kiora

elspeth and gideon use to be pains but i dont think theyre all that anymore with the power creep
they went from unbeatable to annoying
 
Lucre

Lucre

When I started planning a modernish cube I wanted to include two walkers per colour
My initial thoughts were:

Sun's Champion + Gideon Jura
Tamiyo + Architect of Thought (or JTMS)
Veil + Brew : /
Pyromaster + Dragonspeaker (or koth if aggro needs work)
Wildspeaker + Nissa (or Primal Hunter)

I like primal hunter a lot, but I realize other people find it annoying. I also really like that it rewards GGG decks. I can't stress enough how bad your draws are as a ramp deck and really adding a 3/3 or suddenly bumping your hand by 5 is a really great way to offset those elf or land draws that you're gonna have so much of the time.

I honestly didn't consider having to include one walker per guild. Those sections are tight. I would also want to think about what those decks wanted to be doing.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I think that depends on your power level. The closer you get to power max, the more I agree, because most of the guild walkers are underwhelming compared to their monocolour peers. But take the power level down a notch or two, and many of the guild ones are fun, rewarding, and maybe most importantly, not dominating. They're "good stuff", but guilt-free, in the sense that they're not all just Flametongue Kavu-like value machines.

Onderzeeboot said:
Are you saying not playing Kiora, Vraska and Ral make for a better environment? I actually like what those three planeswalkers bring to the table. None of them are overbearing the way the "best" planeswalkers are, though Kiora's ultimate is totally game-ending :)
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of Kiora, too - I like what she brings to the table, and her ultimate is both easy to get to, and very much a real ability, unlike some planeswalkers that only have two abilities. I'm probably going to bring Ral Zarek back in, too, cause it turns out Keranos being both indestructible and a non-creature makes him a huge pain in the ass. Vraska though... is she worth the five mana? She reads as really underwhelming, though I'll admit I've never tried her.

Has anyone had any success with Domri Rade in cube? After half a year of running him in cube, I've come to the conclusion that he's a dud. I think he's a better fit in constructed, much the same way that most of us aren't cubing Narset. It's really hard to get your creature density to a point where his plus is worthwhile, as R/G cube decks are often midrange, involving some smattering of ramp, burn, and utility spells, rather than the Kibler-esque Big Zoo decks where Domri does his thing in standard or modern. Similarly, Sarkhan Vol never did much in his time here, as he usually had a more aggressive slant than the Gruul decks that were popping up, though Xenagos, the Reveler sounds like a great idea.

I might add Sorin, Solemn Visitor to the list of annoying planeswalkers, because two activations of the plus ability in an aggro deck can put just about any game out of reach, even if it then takes another twelve minutes to play out.

I agree with Garruk Relentless being obnoxious because his most typical mode of operation is kill a creature, and then make infinite 1/1 deathtouch tokens. It's not necessarily game-winning, but it can grind down a game real fast. At least Garruk Wildspeaker has the decency to kill you.
 
yan

yan

domri always fights something then draws 0-1 cards
i like him but yea only fits the zoo niche
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I like Domri a lot and he makes the final 40 more often then not. Its a 3 mana prey upon, which I suppose is terrible, but the opponent has to dedicate some resource to killing him or else you are going to eventually get a free card and/or a second prey upon which is a pretty fair value for 3 drop. If you are running some topdeck swappers you can even try to synergize for better draws, assuming the 20 creature route isn't looking good. He's pretty much an ideal planeswalker to me in that;

1) He serves a specific purpose
2) He gives you and your opponent interesting options
3) He doesn't run away with the game by himself
 
Lucre

Lucre

I take domri pretty mid-early because I can get him. I like that card a lot.
Giving those stupid decks a little more agency is a nice nod too.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
wtf are you guys smoking domri is the coolest 2-color one, kiora is super one-dimensional, and there are infinite more BG cards that are doper than vraska. domri, venser, UB tezz are exactly what you're looking for, i.e. build-arounds
 
James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
I currently only run 7, apparently. Has anyone here mentioned Koth? I think Chandra Pyromaster might be cooler in that spot, but anyway I still run Koth.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Shhhh!! Everybody knows that if you mention Koth Jason will show up and talk for an hour about the time he splashed Koth in his two Mountain deck.
 
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