Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
How conditional is Painful Truths?
I really want to do some City of Ass shenanigans and get 4 cards off of Painful Truths. It'll never happen though.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Can we talk a little bit about card advantage vs. card selection? The painful truths vs. read the bones discussion is vaguely reminiscent of the dig through time v. treasure cruise debate.
One of the arguments that I've heard is that formats tend to value attrition more so than selection, and in that model, raw card advantage takes the lead, despite selection being theoretically better.
I think that makes some sense, if you think of a control deck's strategy as being about building up to casting costly "many for ones," you would want to maximize the impact of doing so on the turn you select. Basically, the strategic function of those cards is removed from questions of card quality, or card selection, which is a role which should be generally regulated to draw smoothers like ponder, preordain, brainstorm, or think twice.
One of the arguments that I've heard is that formats tend to value attrition more so than selection, and in that model, raw card advantage takes the lead, despite selection being theoretically better.
I think that makes some sense, if you think of a control deck's strategy as being about building up to casting costly "many for ones," you would want to maximize the impact of doing so on the turn you select. Basically, the strategic function of those cards is removed from questions of card quality, or card selection, which is a role which should be generally regulated to draw smoothers like ponder, preordain, brainstorm, or think twice.
FWIW, I don't think there is a huge power difference between read the bones and painful truths. And I'd agree this is similar to the dig vs cruise debate.
For me, I really like the impact scry has on the game which is why I like read more. With read, you get to see the top two cards and if they are lands (and you don't need lands), it's immensely valuable being able to make them go away (or vice versa if you are desperate for lands). I tested a couple converge cards and it's fairly easy to get 3 colors in most decks (over here anyway), so painful truths is going to get you more raw card advantage most of the time. But not the quality selection that I think is generally more useful.
Raw CA is not hard to come by in cube. It's built into much of the cards we play. Being singleton and high powered though... having the cards you need when you need them is just hugely important which is where card quality comes in. Often times, I'd trade my whole hand for a card that I desperately need. While spending three to just draw cards and not advance the board state might appear bad, it's well worth it in any deck with a longer end game because losing multiple turns to random card variance is much more damaging to losing one turn to help ensure reduced RNG. Not sure how this plays out for others, but you can usually eat one turn of tempo loss especially if you get something out of it. But missing two turns to mana screw or whatever. That's usually fatal unless your opponent is having similar issues.
For me, I really like the impact scry has on the game which is why I like read more. With read, you get to see the top two cards and if they are lands (and you don't need lands), it's immensely valuable being able to make them go away (or vice versa if you are desperate for lands). I tested a couple converge cards and it's fairly easy to get 3 colors in most decks (over here anyway), so painful truths is going to get you more raw card advantage most of the time. But not the quality selection that I think is generally more useful.
Raw CA is not hard to come by in cube. It's built into much of the cards we play. Being singleton and high powered though... having the cards you need when you need them is just hugely important which is where card quality comes in. Often times, I'd trade my whole hand for a card that I desperately need. While spending three to just draw cards and not advance the board state might appear bad, it's well worth it in any deck with a longer end game because losing multiple turns to random card variance is much more damaging to losing one turn to help ensure reduced RNG. Not sure how this plays out for others, but you can usually eat one turn of tempo loss especially if you get something out of it. But missing two turns to mana screw or whatever. That's usually fatal unless your opponent is having similar issues.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Black card draw questions/observations:
1. Night's whisper should, in theory, be a higher pick as a draw smoother, since it fires off on two mana. Yet, night's whisper isn't that great. In pauper, the MBC decks run sign in blood, and I swear there is a correlation between tapping out turn 2 to sign in blood and losing the game. The tempo loss is just too brutal, and i.m.o. those cards are better off being cast on turn 4-5, than they are on turn 2, making them poor smoothers.
2. Painful truths sees play in legacy and modern, read the bones only saw play in standard (doesn't even see pauper play). This seems like a huge gulf in playability for two very similar cards.
3. I thought you preferred TC to DTT?
1. Night's whisper should, in theory, be a higher pick as a draw smoother, since it fires off on two mana. Yet, night's whisper isn't that great. In pauper, the MBC decks run sign in blood, and I swear there is a correlation between tapping out turn 2 to sign in blood and losing the game. The tempo loss is just too brutal, and i.m.o. those cards are better off being cast on turn 4-5, than they are on turn 2, making them poor smoothers.
2. Painful truths sees play in legacy and modern, read the bones only saw play in standard (doesn't even see pauper play). This seems like a huge gulf in playability for two very similar cards.
3. I thought you preferred TC to DTT?
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Constructed isn't a good guide here, as it's generally very easy to have consistent access to 3 colours on T3. Even in fixing-heavy Cubes, most manabases won't be nearly as consistent. When your mana 'fails' and you're stuck on only two colours, Painful Truths is an expensive Night's Whisper while Read the Bones is much more likely to get you out of trouble.
These are some good points.
I do wonder if there are some lessons we can't port from Pauper. The effects are much less swingy, and one of the most prominent decks is a tempo deck that can get ahead then hold up Mana Leak / Counterspell / Faeries all game. I'm not sure what the lesson is though.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I wonder how much of the T2 night's whisper losing you the game is because of the life loss and how much is because you're taking an important turn off, or your hand is pretty horrible that it needs shaping up that early
I do, but it's more a mana cost thing. UU vs U. Dig has the better effect though (and if I had a different opinion on that before, I no longer have that opinion after playing with both for awhile now). This could also account for why I think bones is better since it's more consistent and playable in more decks (including mono black).
I really like the things Grillo had to say about which card is "better", but I know that I for one prefer cards that can get you out of a screwed state, even if less powerful, than cards that are notably better when you have the god hand.
I like this way of saying it. As Dom said, Read will help you get out of color screw. If you are stuck on three swamps, Truths will be... less than helpful. When you already have your three colors of mana and can use it to just keep the gas coming, Truths is awesome. Just look at standard Abzan. When you need that day of judgment, Read will be better when it digs 4 instead of 3.When you just care about refilling your hand, you are probably in a stable game position, and Truths might be better.
As ferret points out, Truths seems better when you are ahead. Read seems better when you are even or behind.
I mean, it really depends on your deck whether you care for the extra selection you get from scrying off Read the Bones. In attrition-y matchups, you just want raw card advantage, selection isn't as important. Read the Bones is really good if a format is slow and you can afford to take that 3rd turn off to help sculpt your hand; the last Standard was such a format. The many CIPT lands made it so that you didn't fall too behind by playing Bones on curve unless you were against aggro or something. I don't think the correct play is to fire off on 3, I've found that aside from like EDH I'd rather play these sorts of effects later when the game has hit a lull or when we're at parity. If you're firing off Truths or Bones at 3 digging for something specific, it's very likely that you're in a bad position to begin with.
Painful Truths has been good in the decks that have used them in Modern (Jund, Abzan, Grixis) because you care less about specific cards and just want to grind out wins via card advantage. When decks have so few dead topdecks, then you're cool with drawing whatever to refill your hand with gas. Sure, you could run into the shitty triple land draw, but that's not likely to happen very often at all.
Painful Truths has been good in the decks that have used them in Modern (Jund, Abzan, Grixis) because you care less about specific cards and just want to grind out wins via card advantage. When decks have so few dead topdecks, then you're cool with drawing whatever to refill your hand with gas. Sure, you could run into the shitty triple land draw, but that's not likely to happen very often at all.
I'm not sure if the wasteland discussion has told us anything about comparing our situation directly to constructed.
Regardless, if one of them seems better in faster decks that care about grinding the opponent down, and the other seems better developing a quality draw, I'd say running both of them wouldn't be out of line. They apparently fill very similar roles in very different ways, which would make them very good companions imo.
Regardless, if one of them seems better in faster decks that care about grinding the opponent down, and the other seems better developing a quality draw, I'd say running both of them wouldn't be out of line. They apparently fill very similar roles in very different ways, which would make them very good companions imo.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think I can actually speak to this a little bit. In pauper MBC decks, most of your impactful play start at 3cc (chittering rats, phyrexian rager, crypt rats etc), and most of your 1-2cc plays are going to be removal. There are a few exceptions: contemporary MBC runs cuombajj witches, and my rats deck has ravenous rats and augur of skulls.
However, you are still going to get certain hands that are going to develop without a turn 2 play other than sign in blood, and this happens especially if you are on the play. I'm still going to fire off a sign in blood in that situation, just to use my mana, but it puts me in a spot where I am effectively passing turns 1-2 without really doing anything. On top of that, doming yourself for two only accentuates the tempo loss. I think thats what losses games.
How applicable that is to night's whisper in cube, I don't know, but we tend to have fairly fast formats, and I can't imagine its a desirable situation to be in, where you have have to fire off night's whisper turn two because you have nothing else to do. This suggests its a poor draw smoother, and makes me really question its inclusion.
Its really interesting btw, the focus on color screw, which seems to further accent the Karsten article ahadaban posted. I still have to question, however, the value of these effects as digging pieces, due to how costly they are: Read the bones looks really bad when you put it alongside preordain. On the other hand, it seems like read is capable of solving a color screw problem, rather than suffering from it, as painful truths is.
And now I'm wondering if any of these cards are actually good.
Interesting thing to bring up about how good the cards really are. Looked through about 30 pages of the 3-0 thread just now. Interestingly, it actually seems like black may be a little underrepresented in top decks? and very unidimensional? By far the largest sources of black card advantage were 2Shieldz, Gravecrawler, Phyrexian Arena, Bob, and Toxic Deluge. Also a solid card was this bad boy (girl?):
Of the sorceries discussed above, the only one I saw was Whisper. Interesting.
Of the sorceries discussed above, the only one I saw was Whisper. Interesting.
Is there any format/archetype where Final Fortune is playable/interesting?
Shortly after KTK came out I fucked with a Sundial of the Infinite Legacy brew for a little while. 4x Cruise, 2x Dig, 4x Final Fortune, 3x Dank Faded, Greatest Thief in the Multiverse, 4 YP, 3 Stifle, 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought. The delve spells prob. 90% carried the deck.
I switched to Viking Funeral (Bob Huang's cRUise Delver) and it was a lot better and more consistent but good god was Fortunate Dreadnought ever fun. In retrospect the list might've worked better as a Ral Zarek Stasis archetype.
So to answer your question, no. But don't let that stop you.
My playgroup likes to do pushups after each game for total life lost (i.e. if you won at ten life with your opponent at zero, you do ten, opponent does twenty). Final Fortune sometimes made decks that the owners knew were pretty bad and was used to limit the number of pushups done. It eventually got cut after never appearing in any good decklists.
I suppose my take for Cube would be "interesting, yes, playable, no".
how did this ludicrousness start and how do I get my friends to do this?
(really wishing I could tag chris right now)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
By having different friends. I can barely do single digit of pushups, and I'm not passing dark confidant just so I can make it through the night without dying
Aoret
Developer
Just scoop IMO
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'd figure it was obvious from the whole punishment angle the "Never Surrender" thing kinda needs to be forfront in everyone's mind