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Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Alfonzo Bonzo said:
I think the emerge cards look like they have the potential to be really strong, and interesting for cube. This has got me to thinking about



Not necessarily saying it's the bee's knees, but definately good with the emerge eldrazi and probably has some interest with some other cards, such as dredge (though the synergy isn't there).
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It can actually tutors up all (most?) of the emerge cards, doesn't it?
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Girlfriend complained that the white deck I made was too weak. I don't think it's true, but, I slotted in this card:


I haven't run this in my main cube for a while, but I think I still hate it. If they're behind when this hits, the game just plays out miserably.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Jason Waddell said:
Girlfriend complained that the white deck I made was too weak. I don't think it's true, but, I slotted in this card:


I haven't run this in my main cube for a while, but I think I still hate it. If they're behind when this hits, the game just plays out miserably.
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Who knew the most powerful anthem in a long time would be a swingy card
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Maybe this is a bit of an exaggeration, but that's generally my issue with Every Planeswalker Ever. Most of them are fair to decent when the board state is about even; many of them are downright awful when you're behind, with some notable exceptions; but the majority of them can take a small lead of yours, and vault that into a dominant position that's nearly hopeless for your opponent to come back from.

It's not so bad with the five or six mana planewalkers, as comparably priced win conditions at those costs tend to have similar effects, but it's pretty demoralizing when this happens with a three or four mana walker. I know that Liliana of the Veil has a big following around here, but she's more guilty of this than just about any other planeswalker; she can take a small, early game board advantage, and then put the game out of reach quickly.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Eric Chan said:
It's not so bad with the five or six mana planewalkers, as comparably priced win conditions at those costs tend to have similar effects, but it's pretty demoralizing when this happens with a three or four mana walker. I know that Liliana of the Veil has a big following around here, but she's more guilty of this than just about any other planeswalker; she can take a small, early game board advantage, and then put the game out of reach quickly.
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That does not mirror my experiences at all. I cut several planeswalkers for having an unhealthy impact on my cube games.



Tamiyo and Vengeant are close to the desired power level, but Tamiyo can really lock away a game with her plus ability, while working toward a really strong ultimate, and Vengeant has one of the most unpleasant ultimates around. Still, of the seven planeswalkers I cut for power level / unfun factor reasons, four (!) are five mana, and one is six mana! Liliana has never run away with a game like any of these seven have.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Well, the effects of a three or four mana planeswalker on the game are often more subtle and insidious than the high impact, immediate effect a five or six mana walker will have. Liliana of the Veil won't win you the game by turn five or six; Jace, the Mind Sculptor often takes a long time to do his thing. In contrast, everybody knows when Garruk, Primal Hunter or especially Elspeth, Sun's Champion makes a splash.

But the latter category is more akin to a 'finisher', to me - just like when Sheoldred, Whispering One or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite announce their presence, every head nearby turns. With something like a Liliana or a Jace, the "ESPN SportsCenter Play of the Day" won't usually be anything flashy or even memorable; it'll be that you had to sacrifice a creature to Lilly's minus, make a bad attack or two into her to finish her off, and then keep soldiering on through the game from a much bigger disadvantage than before. It could even be that another planeswalker, like a Sorin, is what finally lands the killing blow; but the fatal stab wound was delivered much earlier.

That isn't to say that I haven't cut expensive planewalkers on power level, because I have; Elspeth, Sun's Champion lasted all of three drafts before I had to give her the heave-ho. It's just that early game planeswalkers stretching out tiny leads into insurmountable ones is somehow more depressing and demoralizing than when Karn Liberated does it, because in the latter scenario, you at least had a chance to do your thing.
 
genericco

genericco

I think it might be worth making a 'On the Subject of Planeswalkers' thread or reanimating the Shit Tier List discussion. I'd like to hear how y'all approach planeswalkers big-picture and decide which ones to run.

Personally I find them overbearing and "goodstuff"-y, and have whittled down what was once a cycle of ten or nine multi-color ones to five, plus the flip-walkers. Of course the flip-walkers can be pretty pushed and Nissa at least is pretty much generic goodstuff, but it feels more fair when you get an opportunity to remove it while it's still a creature.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

So, I've noticed a lot of TOL mechanics creeping into cubes these days (mine included). Things like Collected Company, miracle cards, etc.

A card that I've always felt was just so close to being good enough but never quite there was



1/1's are bad. I know. But does the 4/5's of an index make it testable? Blue 1's are just so shitty, I feel sad that I'm even considering sage. But until Wizards prints playable stuff, I'm sort of stuck.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Eric Chan said:
That isn't to say that I haven't cut expensive planewalkers on power level, because I have; Elspeth, Sun's Champion lasted all of three drafts before I had to give her the heave-ho. It's just that early game planeswalkers stretching out tiny leads into insurmountable ones is somehow more depressing and demoralizing than when Karn Liberated does it, because in the latter scenario, you at least had a chance to do your thing.
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To each their own. I feel the exact opposite. I hate it when my opponent plays Karn. The game is essentially over from there on. If my opponent lands a Liliana of the Veil, I at least have a chance to push through that. I know she's strong, and yes, little advantages add over time, but she's not nearly as brutal as the big guns.
 
shamizy

shamizy

As far as Walkers are concerned, I try to play with the ones that seem most interesting and/or most interactive. My cube is pretty high powered but avoids most GRBS, so stuff like Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor aren't majorly game-warping. I also like playing with powerful cards so I'm probably never going to cut either of them. The key is to keep them in check with the limits of your environment. If the match is dead even with interaction on both sides, does a walker just completely swing it in one person's favor after a single activation? Can the walker be dealt with effectively via efficient threats? Do you have enough evasive creatures/ways to attack the walker with damage (or outright destroy effects)? These are reasons why I'll never run Karn Liberated or Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.

My aggro suite has the typical RDW available if someone wants to force it, but stuff like Champion of the Parish Wx builds or Recursive Black Aggro with Gravecrawlers and Bloodsoaked Champions aided by double Bonesplitter really go a long way towards applying enough pressure to keep Walkers in check. I'm also a fan of trying out pretty much every new card that comes out with "Destroy Target Planeswalker" text. White has the small threats to apply pressure, Blue has the counterspells + bounce effects, Black has the kill effects, Red has the Aggro + burn for reach, and Green has the ability to power out early threats to apply pressure. As long as you can tailor your environment to reasonably deal with the walkers you choose to run, there shouldn't be too much of an issue with most walkers.

I've definitely toned it back on total walkers with recent iterations of my cube, I much prefer those that shine in certain strategies rather than one that is universally great to just splash for (like Ajani, Caller of the Pride for aggro. That was the problem with Gideon Jura. As much as I love the card and think it's completely badass, that shit swings the game so quickly to one side. It's frustrating as hell to go up against. I'm currently at 14/420 for Walkers, they aren't in every pool we play with either, so I'm fine with that.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Not scrying is a huge deal; just rearranging the cards in the absence of a fetchland is miserable, if you desperately need lands and don't hit any, or vice versa. I mean, I might say Index 10 is worth a card, but then there's still the odd chance that you somehow whiff on lands or nonlands... boy, would that be awkward.

Maybe Mystic Speculation is what we're looking for? Scry 3 is worth slightly less than a card, I think, but at least it does something early and something late.
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

Mystic Speculation has quickly become one of the more popular utility spells in my list. Trips spells-matters, good late-game, fine to throw away early. Draw quality tools are really strong and it plays sooo much better than Crystal Ball, which is kinda what I expected when I slotted it up. Me and my primary draft partner love playing it, especially since I've cut down on raw card draw and trended more towards selection tools. Scry 3 is a lot bigger than Scry 2.
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

What do people think about Silumgar's Command? Is it too strong?
Countering/destroying/bouncing two cards for five mana at instant speed is quite the deal. Compared to Ojutai's Command, which I think is designed very well, for one mana more you get a very flexible removal that usually generates a lot of tempo (I know there was a discussion about 'tempo' on this board which I found to be very enlightening - but I have to admit that's all I remember about it, I even forgot about the name you used for that term instead).
I really want a card which pulls people into that pair of colours but I find that combination to be quite difficult.
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

Mondschwein said:
What do people think about Silumgar's Command? Is it too strong?
Countering/destroying/bouncing two cards for five mana at instant speed is quite the deal. Compared to Ojutai's Command, which I think is designed very well, for one mana more you get a very flexible removal that usually generates a lot of tempo (I know there was a discussion about 'tempo' on this board which I found to be very enlightening - but I have to admit that's all I remember about it, I even forgot about the name you used for that term instead).
I really want a card which pulls people into that pair of colours but I find that combination to be quite difficult.
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We talked about this three pages ago. I don't like it.
 
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