Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
RavebornMuse said:
Dimir Charm, sitting at a full 3 mana cheaper, still has its value. I find it extremely playable in my list, and I've splashed for it before and not been disappointed. It's a cool card; people love toolbox-feeling effects. Meanwhile, my drafters were never interested in Silumgar's Command. I think they both have value but the Charm is underrated imho

edit: clarity
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If anything, it sounds like Command is underrated in your group ;)
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

I've run Karn, Silver Golem before, and it was alright. My cube has a lot of artifacts, but even there, the biggest issue was actually building around having a bunch of large artifacts. They need to be purposeful enough when they aren't creatures.
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

Onderzeeboot said:
If anything, it sounds like Command is underrated in your group ;)
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It's not underrated - I just don't like it, and it doesn't excite my players, who don't typically go hard on old-school control.

Let's look at it: Negate, Boomerang, Last Gasp, and (half a) Dreadbore.

Negate is a fine time to do these other things, sure; I love this mode.

Boomerang is where it starts to lose me. Plainly put: I hate bounce. I think it does more damage to a format than most people are willing to admit in their quest to enable ~blue tempo on-board reactive plays~. In particular, I hate how bounce beats up on non-ETB creatures, who are already less desirable than their spell-on-a-stick counterparts (especially so in control match-ups, and especially so versus {U}{B} control). As such, I like to avoid it, because I push stick-em-and-stack-em aggro a lot, and it's been a slow process to see it adopted. Bounce undermines so much of a non-ETB creature's efficiency that I am a complete miser about putting it in, and as a format decision, I try to avoid it.

Next up is... Last Gasp. A control deck around these parts is gonna have more trouble with either
a) go wide decks, which this does little to stem, and
b) go tall decks - ditto
I don't need this. I have enough cool removal. A -3/-3 effect might be dandy, sure, but it's not that neat.

Half a Dreadbore.. Sure. I like incidental planeswalker hate, I think it's great. Walkers are strong and I do my best to balance the fun of playing 'walkers with their fairness in the format. So I'm really happy with this being here.

But overall, the card is a generic control tool, and there's enough of those to go around, especially in {U}{B}. Dimir Charm has a tech feeling to it, and the modes are interestingly conditioned enough to get a Johnny-type thinking.

Personally, I wish this card's options were a bit more in Silumgar's flavour. While I didn't read all of the Uncharted Realms of the block cuz I didn't like the block that much, it seemed pretty clear to me that
a) Silumgar doesn't take risks with smart types around who might start scheming for power
b) Silumgar likes undead servants
Considering this, it seemed like a missed opportunity to put in another Extract From Darkness-style effect. I'm thinking like...

{3}{U}{B}
Choose two:
- Counter target noncreature spell.
- Target player discards two cards.
- Put a creature card from a graveyard on the battlefield under your control. (could be etb tapped for balance purposes)
- Destroy target planeswalker.

I mean, maybe we're undervaluing the Command as-printed in the same way that I'm undervaluing Mana Drain because I don't think it looks cool, fun, or good for my format, but I think I'll take that risk :rolleyes:
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
RavebornMuse said:
Plainly put: I hate bounce. I think it does more damage to a format than most people are willing to admit in their quest to enable ~blue tempo on-board reactive plays~. In particular, I hate how bounce beats up on non-ETB creatures, who are already less desirable than their spell-on-a-stick counterparts (especially so in control match-ups, and especially so versus {U}{B} control). As such, I like to avoid it, because I push stick-em-and-stack-em aggro a lot, and it's been a slow process to see it adopted. Bounce undermines so much of a non-ETB creature's efficiency that I am a complete miser about putting it in, and as a format decision, I try to avoid it.
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I've had similar thoughts over the last couple of months. It basically makes any creature with CC over 3 feel like a potential game losing play if it lacks an ETB. It feels almost like you need the ETB as bounce defense sometimes.

That and when you think about it, being able to answer any creature (and sometimes any permanent) for 0-2 mana, is insane. I know its supposed to be balanced by just being temporary, but within the confines of a single turn, pretty much any generic blue bounce spell is better than the best removal any of the other colors can muster.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Grillo_Parlante said:
I've had similar thoughts over the last couple of months. It basically makes any creature with CC over 3 feel like a potential game losing play if it lacks an ETB. It feels almost like you need the ETB as bounce defense sometimes.

That and when you think about it, being able to answer any creature (and sometimes any permanent) for 0-2 mana, is insane. I know its supposed to be balanced by just being temporary, but within the confines of a single turn, pretty much any generic blue bounce spell is better than the best removal any of the other colors can muster.
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That's a very skewed point of view. I mean, within the confines of the first two turns, any one drop is better than the best four drop any of the colors can muster, but we all know the game doesn't stop after two turns, just as we know a game is not bound to the confines of a single turn. The feeling that you need ETB effects to combat bounce should apply to any removal spell. Auras are just as bad against Doom Blade as they are against Disperse, but at least Disperse lets you keep the creature.

If bounce truly feels too strong in your environment, maybe you run too many bounce spells, or maybe you increased the cost of removal spells (axing Doom Blade and Swords to Plowshares), but you still run Vapor Snag? I don't know what it is, but it seems very weird to me that bounce is your best creature solution.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Onderzeeboot said:
That's a very skewed point of view. I mean, within the confines of the first two turns, any one drop is better than the best four drop any of the colors can muster, but we all know the game doesn't stop after two turns, just as we know a game is not bound to the confines of a single turn. The feeling that you need ETB effects to combat bounce should apply to any removal spell. Auras are just as bad against Doom Blade as they are against Disperse, but at least Disperse lets you keep the creature.

If bounce truly feels too strong in your environment, maybe you run too many bounce spells, or maybe you increased the cost of removal spells (axing Doom Blade and Swords to Plowshares), but you still run Vapor Snag? I don't know what it is, but it seems very weird to me that bounce is your best creature solution.
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Making an opponent reinvest 5-6 mana over the course of multiple turns to recast the same threat is often times much better than simply doom blading it when you have pressure on the ground. Having access to a completely unconditional and undercosted answer is immensely strong, even if its only temporary.

I'm also not saying that bounce is my "best" creature solution, nor that its necessarly too strong in anyones environment. Rather I am echoing RBM's statement that it probably has a much stronger impact on a format than many of us generally give it credit for, and espousing as to why that may be.
 
sigh

sigh

While I really like Silumgar's Command and I really like Dimir Charm, I'm not so sure they exactly occupy the same slot, if even just because they are so different in mana cost. I am, however, getting a little wary of the Command and how much it's actually doing for me. Looking at RBM's list, found a five-drop Dimir spell that I keep forgetting about and that deserves it's fair share of love:

Incidental Lifegain, hard creature control that blue has extra incentive to run, incidental draw, flexibility of color (single or multi)? It's basically a laundry list of things I like.

And if that spell doesn't work out, I'm looking at potentially reinstating my original owner of this slot:


EDIT: and, not that mtgcube.blogspot is necessarily a pillar of our ideals, but check this out
Top 10 Dimir Cards

10. Lim-Dul's Vault
9. Far / Away
8. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
7. Oona, Queen of Fea
6. Psychatog
5. Sygg, River Cutthroat
4. Shadowmage Infiltrator
3. Recoil
2. Dimir Charm
1. Baleful Strix
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I can vouch for ribbons of night being a great card. It has a power level ceiling of course, but where its playable its very good, and feels like a lower power cruel ultimatum.

I ended up cutting it during a balancing patch (my black removal was too strong), and on account that it was a de facto multi-color card which I didn't really have room for.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Jason Waddell said:
Do people like Ashiok? Always seemed like wayyy too much loyalty for a 3CMC walker.
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I like it so far, it takes a while to take over a game and has no immediate impact, so your opponent has time to do something about it. Certain players also like the psychological aspect of exiling random important cards :)
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I've found Ashiok takes over the game almost immediately if it doesn't die on sight; even if you don't get to put anything into play, the threat of that warps the entire game
 
GiftsForgiven

GiftsForgiven

Ashiok's real good. She's obviously better in creature-based cubes, but even decks like powered cube will eventually give her a good hit. She soaks up removal instead of your more bombastic threats, and spirals out of control when she doesn't.

So... she's basically a PW tarmogoyf.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Ashiok is not fun at all. It warps the entire game around it if it's dropped early and you can just play protect the queen with blockers and removal. It's slower than stupid mill 10 Jace, but it's just as uninteractive and crushing to go up against. It's one of my favorite walkers from that Standard, but I'm never going to play it in Cube again. It's way too good on an even board, busted when you're ahead.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I have never seen this happen in my drafts, but I will keep an eye out. I might need to design a custom planeswalker in {U/B}, because my cube does not have the artifact density required for Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and I do want a planeswalker of controllish bent in those colors.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I love it; if I keep pushing the Human subtheme, I'm more likely to double up on Lieutenant than Champion. You can shape the game around Lieutenant in a way that you can't with Champion, and it's much better in any case except the Champion nut draw. It's great with Collected Company, blink effects, and such in a way that Champion could never hope to be. It also 'feels' right for a card meant to push a subtheme: Champion only cares about Humans insofar as they pump it, whereas Lieutenant gets that benefit but also makes all your other Humans better.

(Standard is a good case in point here: Thalia's Lieutenant is played in the all-in Human deck as well as the Bant Humans deck with Company and a higher curve; Champion would only be played in the former)
 
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