Chris Taylor
Contributor
Correction: a card that makes you feel like shit for laughing
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Surely, people aren't that sensative at your LGS?
Its a valid interpretation I suppose, but seems like a perspective slanted needlessly towards the negative.
Its a valid interpretation I suppose, but seems like a perspective slanted needlessly towards the negative.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Hasn't been mentioned since I brought it up >2.5 years ago and idk why, it looks great on paper? Having a permanent reset stapled to a creature gives decks that can use it a great line of defence
seems alright, I guess. Only problem is how it's shaped, is the way I look at it. Decks that can send it to the graveyard at will, and recur it more easily, generally care more about creatures and don't want any of their own to be exiled (WB, GW, etc). And then in pure control, I guess you have to block for it to die? So it's a tricky deathtouch threat to deal with, but leaves your opponent options. And then those decks won't be able to recur it for added value as easily. Dunno, guess I'd rather have the straightforward exile-wrath effect that can leave a 4/4 beater:
What about a one-time-resetable wrath-like effect that may perfectly fit lower powered environments?
The prophet is ugly because it exiles, costs 4 mana and is recurrable, for example with Tortured Existence, Phyrexian Reclamation and such.
If your sac outlet also is an enchantment or an artifact, you're able to fuck aggro really hard up and down the arse.
You need to draft and draw properly for it to happen, but I don't like to have such thing in my cube, I guess.
The prophet is ugly because it exiles, costs 4 mana and is recurrable, for example with Tortured Existence, Phyrexian Reclamation and such.
If your sac outlet also is an enchantment or an artifact, you're able to fuck aggro really hard up and down the arse.
You need to draft and draw properly for it to happen, but I don't like to have such thing in my cube, I guess.
Divine Reckoning is alright, I guess. It's kinda a lower powered cataclysm effect. Think I would like an actual cataclysm-style effect more (Tragic Arrogance, for example). Creature mode:
A wrath on a creature that I really like
A wrath on a creature that I really like
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Superior!
I don't like wraths that put big or a lot of bodies on the board. For a while, I had Kirtar's Wrath in. It was still strong enough as a wrath but boring.
Tragic Arrogance is cool, I made the switch to Cataclysm a while ago but still have to test it. The Gearhulk looks great on paper but some people here told me to play Arrogance instead. I don't have a lot experience with white staxx so I still need to find out which of those cards fit best for my cube.
Divine Reckoning is especially interesting as a repeatable wrath that still has a very real condition. My big problem is, that I don't have a lot of experience with all of those cards and that I don't know which ones are worth the try.
Tragic Arrogance is cool, I made the switch to Cataclysm a while ago but still have to test it. The Gearhulk looks great on paper but some people here told me to play Arrogance instead. I don't have a lot experience with white staxx so I still need to find out which of those cards fit best for my cube.
Divine Reckoning is especially interesting as a repeatable wrath that still has a very real condition. My big problem is, that I don't have a lot of experience with all of those cards and that I don't know which ones are worth the try.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I tried both Cataclysmic Gearhulk and Tragic Arrogance, and Arrogance is definitely the more exciting card. The difference between keeping alive their best threats and their worst threats is huge, and more than worth the lack of a 4/5 body.
I actually don't play any wrath effects that leave behind a body anymore, but Sunblast Angel was always stellar without being overwhelming. Instead I run slightly more expensive wraths that help control players, i.e.
Obviously life gain is useful, instant speed also works nicely, and Arrogance leaves your big finisher alive while stranding your opponent with their worst creature.
By the way, speaking of overwhelming...
I cut it for being too good, though your mileage may vary depending on format's speed and power level
I actually don't play any wrath effects that leave behind a body anymore, but Sunblast Angel was always stellar without being overwhelming. Instead I run slightly more expensive wraths that help control players, i.e.
Obviously life gain is useful, instant speed also works nicely, and Arrogance leaves your big finisher alive while stranding your opponent with their worst creature.
By the way, speaking of overwhelming...
I cut it for being too good, though your mileage may vary depending on format's speed and power level
Oh yes, I remember, that was the argument for Tragic Arrogance and against the Gearhulk. Truest story.
I had Rout in my cube for a long time, cc5 wrath seemed to be about perfect to give aggro decks enough room, but I wanted to play weaker sweepers in other colours (Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Consume the Meek, Blasphemous Act) and for that I had to go higher in the cc again with Kirtar's Wrath, which has the advantage of being available in old frame. Now I find unconditional wrath effects to be boring, the already mentioned Sunblast Angel was one of the first that came to my mind, but a 4/5 flyer and an at least potential board wipe seemed too good, just like Descend Upon the Sinful, Phyrexian Rebirth and Martial Coup, although they're a tad stronger because they always clear the board.
Now I thought that, if my spot removal got conditional, my sweepers should be so, too. Tragic Arrogance is very strong as a sweeper, but Cataclysm is more of a staxx card, potentially stronger, but has some more play to it as it hits lands and planeswalkers, too, and you need to do more for it to be that backbreaking. Having Cataclysm alongside Divine Reckoning, as the only real creature sweeper for control in white, seems to be the best solution, I think. Control decks often need more than one sweeper, if they pack some tutoring or a lot of draw then one single Reckoning should be enough as it functions as two sweepers, at least in theory. Additionally, there are more sweepers in other colours, ergo there's a density big enough for if the former shouldn't be the case.
I had Rout in my cube for a long time, cc5 wrath seemed to be about perfect to give aggro decks enough room, but I wanted to play weaker sweepers in other colours (Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Consume the Meek, Blasphemous Act) and for that I had to go higher in the cc again with Kirtar's Wrath, which has the advantage of being available in old frame. Now I find unconditional wrath effects to be boring, the already mentioned Sunblast Angel was one of the first that came to my mind, but a 4/5 flyer and an at least potential board wipe seemed too good, just like Descend Upon the Sinful, Phyrexian Rebirth and Martial Coup, although they're a tad stronger because they always clear the board.
Now I thought that, if my spot removal got conditional, my sweepers should be so, too. Tragic Arrogance is very strong as a sweeper, but Cataclysm is more of a staxx card, potentially stronger, but has some more play to it as it hits lands and planeswalkers, too, and you need to do more for it to be that backbreaking. Having Cataclysm alongside Divine Reckoning, as the only real creature sweeper for control in white, seems to be the best solution, I think. Control decks often need more than one sweeper, if they pack some tutoring or a lot of draw then one single Reckoning should be enough as it functions as two sweepers, at least in theory. Additionally, there are more sweepers in other colours, ergo there's a density big enough for if the former shouldn't be the case.
Taking a slight step back, it seems a little odd you are depowering spot removal so much. You still run a bevy of the most powerful creatures across colors (Hero of Oxid Ridge, Sower, Huntmaster, Titania, etc. etc.). And I'd say your wrath count doesn't seem that high to offset effectively not having sweepers in white. Cataclysm et al. do not function in the same decks as Wrath of God and pals, so you are making a format decision to reduce support for hard control. That's fine, but if it's not a conscious decision, it's something to consider.
Gearhulk is a synergy card more than Arrogance, with artifact shenanigans making it a format decision.
Also FWIW, I don't think almost any 6 mana wraths steps on the toes of other, different, wraths. Or are too strong for your format. Descend, for instance, takes actual work to enable (delirium) so it's not a guaranteed value.
Gearhulk is a synergy card more than Arrogance, with artifact shenanigans making it a format decision.
Also FWIW, I don't think almost any 6 mana wraths steps on the toes of other, different, wraths. Or are too strong for your format. Descend, for instance, takes actual work to enable (delirium) so it's not a guaranteed value.
Those creatures are strong, but Not too hard to handle as all of them are low toughness. I'd rather have to oppose a sower than an enchantment stealing my best creature. Unhandled it's still swingy, I have to admit that.
I already thought about replacing the Hero with Ogre Battledriver, but I don't know if that's necessary. Hero in't Hellrider.
Huntmaster is multicolour and Titania still needs some work to bei done. I'm thinking about replacing the fetch/shock mana base with something else so it isn't as busted.
Yeah, it seems I have to test a lot concerning white sweepers as well as staxx. Gearhulk will be, too.
I already thought about replacing the Hero with Ogre Battledriver, but I don't know if that's necessary. Hero in't Hellrider.
Huntmaster is multicolour and Titania still needs some work to bei done. I'm thinking about replacing the fetch/shock mana base with something else so it isn't as busted.
Yeah, it seems I have to test a lot concerning white sweepers as well as staxx. Gearhulk will be, too.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I consciously removed Titania, because I don't want to sacrifice my good mana base to make a single card not busted. There are plenty of interesting green cards I feel that you don't need to warp one of the most important parts of your cube (your mana base) to accommodate a single card.
She's also broken with Wildfire, by the way.
She's also broken with Wildfire, by the way.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
There is such a thing as RNG creatures. Things like baneslayer, that are giant non-etb bricks, and represent a giant tempo blow-out if bounced or hit with cheap removal, but if allowed to untap just win the game. Either way, based on RNG, someone is either about to be way ahead, or way behind.
You basically have removal checks, value creatures, RNG creatures, or bricks. And you kind of need to have your removal tailored to run parallel with those threats, or things get miserable fast.
It does feel like we're kind of going all over the place here with these threats and answers. If they are mismatched, you get these rng based rock, paper, scissors metas, where mismatched power disparities pre-determine the likely outcome of games. Who cares about your deck, or your interactive plan, when I automatically win a certain % of games just by having Hero of Oxford ridge in my deck.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The example list was purely indicative, to be sure. Any particular card inside or outside of that list might have a justification for inclusion or not, but the point is, the cube does include some very powerful creature cards. Aggressive and midrange decks seem well positioned to be overbearing, and hard control doesn't have many good catch-all answers (spot removal or wrath).
I'd recommend at least one hard wrath. I see Kirtar's in the list still, so that's decent enough. If you still want another cutesy conditional wrath, this fits a lot of what your removal suite in white is already doing:
I'd recommend at least one hard wrath. I see Kirtar's in the list still, so that's decent enough. If you still want another cutesy conditional wrath, this fits a lot of what your removal suite in white is already doing:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, that kind of distracts from the broader point he has to contend with. The data point you're suggesting isn't very clear either, and certaintly dosen't apply to his format.
I'm seeing a lot of cards from my list mixing with a lot of cards from Jason's list, coupled with a removal suite thats more symbolic than practical. Green has nothing, red has burn spells that largely seems capped below 3 damage, black is conditioned and has way too many edict effects, while the white removal is expensive and conditioned. Blue is low density, but good for enabling tempo plays.
Low density, high cost interaction with double champion, double noble, double expo 1, and cards like hero of oxid ridge or sower of temptation? Plus there are temp proc effect in white and recurssive black one drops? The large number of necessary removal costs at 3 is going to be a nightmare in draft and deck construction too.
The meta here is pretty clear: aggressive decks and built out assertive boards. It shouldn't be too difficult to overwhelm most removal suites and just crash in for the win, lean on reach, or go over the top with value ETBs. Any other strategy to me seems very inconsistent, and likely weeded out quickly.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Oo! I run Dusk till Dawn, and it's cute indeed! Saw play and did work actually.
@Grillo: Fair enough!
@Grillo: Fair enough!
Grillo's absolutely right in that I pushed aggressive decks very hard. My 'playgroup' (which really isn't one, but there are players I usually come up to play with) is full of guys that want to draft multicoloured, blue-centric control decks. It's always tough to balance blue, as everybody on these forums knows and isn't tired of mentioning it, so I started to push aggressive decks in doubling up on 1-drops that make aggro very viable.
I like a lot of your ideas Grillo, and as you recognized rightly, I adopted some of them, but in some cases I made the same experiences as other people on these forums (toning down removal; making board clears available on later turns; counters should be somewhat conditional; no colour should be clearly better at CQ, removal or disruption in direct comparison of the particular cards, but rather have a small difference in cost/domain and density, which is only natural as red usually has the most burn, blue the most counters, green the most ramp etc). It's nowhere near perfect, but I think in some cases it works out pretty good. I think I have to change my whole cube completely: size, cards that I double up on, archetypes that are available.
The biggest actual problem: the list in my signature is somewhat outdated, at least a little. And I have cubed only about two times in the past six months while making changes here and there that didn't undergo any testing besides what I did in mind. Maybe that's why there are phases from time to time where I post a lot here, and then nothing for a few months. Quite chaotic, I know, but that's how I roll. Always.
I like a lot of your ideas Grillo, and as you recognized rightly, I adopted some of them, but in some cases I made the same experiences as other people on these forums (toning down removal; making board clears available on later turns; counters should be somewhat conditional; no colour should be clearly better at CQ, removal or disruption in direct comparison of the particular cards, but rather have a small difference in cost/domain and density, which is only natural as red usually has the most burn, blue the most counters, green the most ramp etc). It's nowhere near perfect, but I think in some cases it works out pretty good. I think I have to change my whole cube completely: size, cards that I double up on, archetypes that are available.
The biggest actual problem: the list in my signature is somewhat outdated, at least a little. And I have cubed only about two times in the past six months while making changes here and there that didn't undergo any testing besides what I did in mind. Maybe that's why there are phases from time to time where I post a lot here, and then nothing for a few months. Quite chaotic, I know, but that's how I roll. Always.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Thats fine. I would encourage you though to not nerf your removal. Your list isn't being depowered at all, you're just shifting the power focus more towards the low end of the curve.
Also, remember that the cards from my list get slots based on the mechanical demands of designed wedge/shards/guild relationships. A lot of them, I would expect, would be largely invalidated as cards when moved to a different format, especially if they have to compete with old power max staples like sower.
Also, remember that the cards from my list get slots based on the mechanical demands of designed wedge/shards/guild relationships. A lot of them, I would expect, would be largely invalidated as cards when moved to a different format, especially if they have to compete with old power max staples like sower.
Updated list, though still untested in the actual iteration (Demonic Rising, for example).
What about
What about
Don't think it can hold a candle to the Death Cloud in the list, which is an excellent and unique card.Updated list, though still untested in the actual iteration (Demonic Rising, for example).
What about
My opinion still holds that you should just put some normal wraths into your list. Like Crux of Fate and hallowed burial, for example, instead of trying to skirt around the effect so much. I do appreciate seeing the wrath-creatures in white with the update, but they shift the focus to more midrange strategies, is all (especially gearhulk).
EDIT: What led you to putting eight Chromatic Star in your list? I'm a fan of baubles, but gee whiz.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean, on balance I've got more brainstorm equivilents than he has stars, and if the shoe fits (and it's colorless)...
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is why I'm suggesting not nerfing the removal so much. If anything, its going to have way more pressure on it than before.
Nothing in the format is realistically going to have an even semi-reasonable matchup against something like that, and it was trivial to draft.
Mardu Aggro from CubeTutor.com
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Nothing in the format is realistically going to have an even semi-reasonable matchup against something like that, and it was trivial to draft.
Be careful not to make the multicoloured blue-centric control decks inviable.
Bad removal and counterspells favors midrange, not aggro. Midrange does not need removal to beat aggro, but control needs it to beat aggro. Bad boardwipes, though, do favor aggro and midrange to a lesser extent.