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Karn Cuberated

Karn Cuberated

Scourging the gatherer, I also found Dream Cache as a returning option, but I dunno... It's similar to Compulsive Research I've been cubing for some period of time (and 've been more or less content with it), but that card gave you the chance of getting +1 card in hand instead of going +-0 cards at the cost of discarding a land. This one, however, allows you to put stuff to the bottom, but I don't think it's a strict upgrade, because it's sometimes/often easier to interact with cards in your GY than somewhere in the depths of your library.
It's not a taboo for me to break singleton: I'm cubing 4 Gravecrawlers and 2 Champion of the Parish from what I can remember now, but I actually prefer when a card is unique, a 1-of in cube. Perhaps, for me that creates a sweet feeling of playing with a collection of cards :)
 
LadyMapi

LadyMapi

There's also...


Which could support a Miracle theme in a cube with a bunch of value discarding.

Or jank - jank's always fun!



If only the Survivor didn't have such a harsh upkeep...
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I've got a few questions regarding Temporal Mastery...
  1. Is the Time Walk dream really worth the bloat of TOL manipulation needed to enable it in cube? You could play cool and less time consuming cards instead.
  2. Is the high roll of this being played as a Time Walk something you're comfortable with exposing your drafters to?
  3. If yes, why not just run Time Walk? That saves you a lot of room you could fill with actual cards, rather than miracle support.
  4. Speaking of miracle, iirc pro's hated the mechanic, because it's hard to counter, you get super undercosted and overpowered effects, and it's the ultimate random miser's topdeck. Are your drafters prepared to relive prime Avacyn Restored anxiety with this card in the cube?
  5. If you want a Time Walk, but at a fair price, why not run Time Warp?
 
Karn Cuberated

Karn Cuberated

Onderzeeboot said:
I've got a few questions regarding Temporal Mastery...
  1. Is the Time Walk dream really worth the bloat of TOL manipulation needed to enable it in cube? You could play cool and less time consuming cards instead.
  2. Is the high roll of this being played as a Time Walk something you're comfortable with exposing your drafters to?
  3. If yes, why not just run Time Walk? That saves you a lot of room you could fill with actual cards, rather than miracle support.
  4. Speaking of miracle, iirc pro's hated the mechanic, because it's hard to counter, you get super undercosted and overpowered effects, and it's the ultimate random miser's topdeck. Are your drafters prepared to relive prime Avacyn Restored anxiety with this card in the cube?
  5. If you want a Time Waalk, but at a fair price, why not run Time Warp?
Click to expand...
Whoah, I've just woken up and my stream of consciousness may seem chaotic, but I'll do my best. Feel free to ask additional questions if my explanation will be messy!
1. We could also play Moxen and Sol Ring, but is it that fun? :p Jokes aside, I agree that one card might be not worth it, and we'd rather add some extra payoffs in any case.
2. I think, it's not that terrible (below I'll explain why I think so). And also...
3. ...Temporal Mastery is not a Time Walk in and of itself, but rather a card that you have to build around to get a Time Walk.
4. The answer is the same as for the second question: I should test it, of course. But I don't think Mastery is as unfun to play against as the notorious Bonfire of the Damned. Time Walk effect's power depends on your board state: if you have a chance to attack/control planeswalkers/some other permanents woth activating twice, they are better. In a bad position, as it was said above, they just give you a card and untap your board.
5. I guess, Time Warp simply doesn't make the cut at my 360 due to its high cost (maybe, when/if I get to the 450?), but Mastery (since you can make it as cheap as Time Walk) could. So, they are both cards that we could look at as Time Walks at a fair price, but Mastery has the potential to be a more powerful effect, than Warp.
But there's a problem: if we don't choose the "5 Brainstorms" path, then we're most likely forced to add some more low-powered that work better with this theme, but that makes players expect more rewards for drafting less powerful enablers. Thooooough... You know what? Perhaps, even having 5 brainstorms in your list doesn't remove the necessity of adding several more payoffs, than just a Mastery, because there're still Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack, which are (correct me if I'm wrong) not very good without payoffs. I mean, they count as artifacts for Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Karn, Scion of Urza, but require something else to be less narrow.
I'm not against trying Entreat the Angels. Mystic Sanctuary many people call a card that's often awkward since you won't often have 3 Islands on the battlefield. I tried it once in Utility Land Draft and was a bit disappointed. Maybe, I should give it another chance? Counterbalance seems just narrow (though it's not without its charm).
Hey, there's also Terminus!
Maybe, there's someone in whose cube Bonfire of the Damned wasn't GRBS? I definitely remember I saw it in Jason Waddell's cube.
 
sigh

sigh

I have many of the same misgivings about all the top deck manipulation that might be required to "effectively" run temporal mastery. That would have a lot of secondary effects on decks (primarily blue I'd think) that might not be healthy for the environment trying to be built.
 
sigh

sigh

You would have an increase in consistency of decks that can utilize the added cards, reduction of effectiveness in thoughtsieze effects, increased game time (especially with cards like Sensei's Divining Top). Additionally, adding cards that are too efficient, brainstorm + shuffling chief among them, could put other potentially more interesting effects out of consideration. Just the first few things that came to mind.

However, you already seem to have an abundance of very efficient blue library manipulation, so I'm not sure you really need to do much of anything, or that you'd have as much impact with making swaps as some other cubes around here (your power level is decently higher than many).

For a cube at a lower power level, I think the build around of nexus of fate or beacon of tomorrows is more compelling/interesting. It's more like a laboratory maniac win, but with potential utility in other situations as needed.
 
LadyMapi

LadyMapi

Karn Cuberated said:
What could they be?
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that it could give those decks a more "constructed" feel, in a bad, "they're overly consistent" way. Plus, the payoffs tend to be either kinda terrible or fantastic. Though I think you could make a Simic archetype around it that might have some play to it?



If you're OK with Manifest, you have a few more options for payoffs:



Most of the support is going to be in Blue (thanks to all the Scrying that it can bring to bear), but there are some interesting support cards in Green:



---

If you wanted to make the archetype a bit more spell-focused, I'd focus it more towards ramping (so far, so Simic). Instead of ramping into a big ol' fatty, you ramp out three Islands, and then abuse . On the blue end...



And, of course...



(OK, OK, there's way more support for this kind of "topdeck matters" in UR than in GU.)
 
LadyMapi

LadyMapi

Oh, right, the thing I actually came to this thread to ask about:



How much effort would it take to make this lady into a decent build-around? She looks like she works well with Madness and other discard payoffs, but I might just be imagining things.
 
ravnic

ravnic

LadyMapi said:
Oh, right, the thing I actually came to this thread to ask about:



How much effort would it take to make this lady into a decent build-around? She looks like she works well with Madness and other discard payoffs, but I might just be imagining things.
Click to expand...

Yeah, looks like a nice enabler for an {U/B} discard matters/madness/cycling archetype. Also, a 3-toughness 2-drop will usually have a few save attacks during a game. The whole thing is still "lower powered" of course.


Brad said:
Booster Tutor is a lot of fun. As a one mana instant, there's plenty of decks that will use it. It's a lowkey 5c payoff, as the deck has more viable cards in a random pack. I can't imagine cutting it.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll give it a try!

Looking through the unsets, I found something that also warrants discussion. It doesn't feel all that goofy in both effect and flavor. Rather it looks like a potentially sick ramp/combo enabler:



The first thing that comes to my mind is combining this with Hedron Crab or Zendikar's Roil. But it is also a sick ritual with some extra lands. Tap 8, use three and have 5 floating, and then, since the kands come back untapped, you'll have potentially 8 more mana. You basically doubled your mana available for the turn.
 
japahn

japahn

ravnic said:
Click to expand...

No :eek: Imagine moving the basics back to the same deck, since they have the same sleeves and come from the same pool. Plus, it's 2020, Gerrymandering is outrageous and politics is sad... :(

LadyMapi said:
Oh, right, the thing I actually came to this thread to ask about:



How much effort would it take to make this lady into a decent build-around? She looks like she works well with Madness and other discard payoffs, but I might just be imagining things.
Click to expand...


You'd need an environment in which it can attack at least once or twice. I'd say a rule of thumb is: if Centaur Courser is good in your cube, Disciple of Deceit is good. Rationale: if Courser is bad, then 3-drops both stonewall Disciple easily and also provide more value. If Tireless Tracker is your average power level for example, Disciple is bad.
 
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