Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

[sigh]

I never tested Neutralize, but it looks akward. When exactly are you cycling it? On turn two, just before it becomes a castable option? In the late game, where holding a hard counter can be a game winning move? I assume only when you're very far behind and desperately need to affect the board right now.

Yeah if you already have another counter, need something that isn't a counterspell, etc.

 

[Velrun]

I never tested Neutralize, but it looks akward. When exactly are you cycling it? On turn two, just before it becomes a castable option? In the late game, where holding a hard counter can be a game winning move? I assume only when you're very far behind and desperately need to affect the board right now.

Most cycle cards are either:

You need a land in the early game so you sneak in an extra card draw
- or -
You are in the late game and could use a more impactful card than the one you have

The first situation is for Neutralize. No matter how fast the card gets into action, you can still end up with 2 lands and 4 spells in hand. Then draw two additional spells leaving you without a land drop and the wish for a land. So you cycle one of your 6 spells.

The other situation is cards like Savai Triome

 

[Velrun]

Okay it's time. What have you got?

 

[Chris Taylor]

On reflection I guess you also need haste

 

[blacksmithy]

Darksteel Forge
Door to Nothingness
Worldslayer
Crystal Ball

 

[sigh]

 

[Velrun]

Spine of Ish Sah + Mindslaver seems like a pretty cool combo. I feel like the combo only has one shot in it though. You attack with Seraph and exile Spine to give Seraph the protection. Then you attack next turn and exile Slaver to complete the combo. Now you can sacrifice Seraph to Worst Fears once in order to bounce Seraph to hand. But then you're out of gas, right?

Darksteel Forge does exactly what is intended Same with Akroma's Memorial

Worldslayer doesn't do much. Creatures can't be equipped so if a creature Equipment is being attached to a creature, it will stop being a creature. That means we got a Worldslayer out for 6 mana + an attack step. But Worldslayer is already only 5 mana. Correct me if I am wrong.

Blightsteel Colossus might be a route to go down. Seraph becomes 4/4 with both indestructible and flying which makes it a fearsome force. Infect makes it dangerous.

Platinum Angel actually makes Seraph an excellent card! Now you just have two Platinums and one of them cost only 6 + an attack step if you draw it first. This is good.

Wurmcoil Engine... Why do you want to hurt me?

 

[Sheltem]

Spine is actually a nonbo as the Seraph doesn’t change name and the Spines ability will never trigger.

 

[Mown]

 

[blacksmithy]

the question is how to actually get the thing in play and then untap with it

 

[Velrun]

Spine is actually a nonbo as the Seraph doesn’t change name and the Spines ability will never trigger.

Really?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Spine is actually a nonbo as the Seraph doesn’t change name and the Spines ability will never trigger.

I would assume this works the same as cards like Necrotic Ooze, that is: "If an activated ability of a card in a graveyard references the card it’s printed on by name, treat Necrotic Ooze’s version of that ability as though it referenced Necrotic Ooze by name instead. For example, if Cudgel Troll (which says “: Regenerate Cudgel Troll”) is in a graveyard, Necrotic Ooze has the ability “: Regenerate Necrotic Ooze.”"

 

[sigh]

I would assume this works the same as cards like Necrotic Ooze, that is: "If an activated ability of a card in a graveyard references the card it’s printed on by name, treat Necrotic Ooze’s version of that ability as though it referenced Necrotic Ooze by name instead. For example, if Cudgel Troll (which says “: Regenerate Cudgel Troll”) is in a graveyard, Necrotic Ooze has the ability “: Regenerate Necrotic Ooze.”"

I assume that's true for this too, but it does read differently: "has the text box of" instead of "has the abilities of". Not sure if that messes with the rules at all.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I assume that's true for this too, but it does read differently: "has the text box of" instead of "has the abilities of". Not sure if that messes with the rules at all.

I just think that's wacky Un-rules at work. It also copies the flavor text. We should still assume basic rules like how copying abilities that refer to the card name work, work the same.

 

[sigh]

I just think that's wacky Un-rules at work. It also copies the flavor text. We should still assume basic rules like how copying abilities that refer to the card name work, work the same.

Unfortunately the ruling on the specific card doesn't clarify one way or the other. I'm guessing that tilts things in favor of "yeah it works like usual"

 

[Velrun]

Guys, let Sheltem answer. I asked him/her because he/she was the one claiming it's a nonbo because Seraph doesn't change name.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

So we aren't allowed to chip in on a public thread? You could send them a PM if you don't want others to get involved, you know

 

[Velrun]

Wow I did not expect I had to answer that question.

If a question is asked specifically to one person, and the person isn’t you, you probably shouldn’t answer it. It’s rude and you cannot know why Sheltem wrote what he wrote. There can also be a good reason why the question (asked directly to one single person) is asked in public. Usually it’s because the person commented in a public thread and in this way the conversation can continue in the same thread. Notice Sheltem commented on my topic of Seraph. Other times it could be the classic Teacher-Student relationship. Maybe someone else wanted to know the same thing I wanted to so I asked in public instead behind closed doors where only I would gain something. It seem like Sheltem had a knowledge that I do not. Therefore I asked here about the knowledge he had.

Edit: I know I am coming off as rude. I don’t know how I could have asked Sheltem what he had found without others barging in if I still wanted the knowledge displayed publically.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I mean, my hope here was that its text box would persist between zones because un rules.
And yeah in hindsight that might have been loose

 

[Jason Waddell]

Wow I did not expect I had to answer that question.

If a question is asked specifically to one person, and the person isn’t you, you probably shouldn’t answer it. It’s rude and you cannot know why Sheltem wrote what he wrote. There can also be a good reason why the question (asked directly to one single person) is asked in public. Usually it’s because the person commented in a public thread and in this way the conversation can continue in the same thread. Notice Sheltem commented on my topic of Seraph. Other times it could be the classic Teacher-Student relationship. Maybe someone else wanted to know the same thing I wanted to so I asked in public instead behind closed doors where only I would gain something. It seem like Sheltem had a knowledge that I do not. Therefore I asked here about the knowledge he had.

Edit: I know I am coming off as rude. I don’t know how I could have asked Sheltem what he had found without others barging in if I still wanted the knowledge displayed publically.

I think you need to relax a bit. Sheltem can still answer and there is no harm in other people also giving their takes. A few of your posts have been fairly prickly the last few days. I can promise you Onderzeeboot doesn't have bad intentions, and I'd encourage you to read his posts with that in mind.

 

[Velrun]

Received and understood

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Spine of Ish Sah + Mindslaver seems like a pretty cool combo. I feel like the combo only has one shot in it though. You attack with Seraph and exile Spine to give Seraph the protection. Then you attack next turn and exile Slaver to complete the combo. Now you can sacrifice Seraph to Worst Fears once in order to bounce Seraph to hand. But then you're out of gas, right?

It occurred to me that there is another problem with this combo. When a card changes zones, it loses track of cards it exiles. For example, if you have a Mirror Golem that exiled an instant die, then Reanimate it and exile a sorcery, it only has protection from sorceries, because it no longer 'remembers' that it previously exiled an instant.

From the comprehensive rules:

Spoiler: Relevant rules

403.4.
Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield, it becomes a new object and has no relationship to any previous permanent represented by the same card, except for the cases listed in rule 400.7. (This is also true for any objects entering any zone.)

400.7.
An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are nine exceptions to this rule:
400.7a
Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics or controller of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7b
Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7c
An ability of a permanent can reference information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved, including what costs were paid to cast that spell or what mana was spent to pay those costs.
400.7d
Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”) can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.
400.7e
Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5m.)
400.7f
If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast this way.
400.7g
If an effect allows a nonland card to be cast, other parts of that effect can find the new object that card becomes after it moves to the stack as a result of being cast this way.
400.7h
If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability’s effects can find that object.
400.7i
After resolving a madness triggered ability (see rule 702.35), if the 55exiled card wasn’t cast and was moved to a public zone, effects referencing the discarded card can find that object.

None of these exceptions in the spoiler tags apply, so when a Do-It-Yourself-Seraph exiling Spine of Ish-Sah dies, it does return to the battlefield, but it then no longer remembers that it previously exiled the Spine, so the next time it dies, it will not return to the battlefield. At least, that's my interpretation of the rules

 

[Rusje]

It occurred to me that there is another problem with this combo. When a card changes zones, it loses track of cards it exiles. For example, if you have a Mirror Golem that exiled an instant die, then Reanimate it and exile a sorcery, it only has protection from sorceries, because it no longer 'remembers' that it previously exiled an instant.

From the comprehensive rules:

Spoiler: Relevant rules

403.4.
Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield, it becomes a new object and has no relationship to any previous permanent represented by the same card, except for the cases listed in rule 400.7. (This is also true for any objects entering any zone.)

400.7.
An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are nine exceptions to this rule:
400.7a
Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics or controller of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7b
Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7c
An ability of a permanent can reference information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved, including what costs were paid to cast that spell or what mana was spent to pay those costs.
400.7d
Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”) can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.
400.7e
Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5m.)
400.7f
If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast this way.
400.7g
If an effect allows a nonland card to be cast, other parts of that effect can find the new object that card becomes after it moves to the stack as a result of being cast this way.
400.7h
If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability’s effects can find that object.
400.7i
After resolving a madness triggered ability (see rule 702.35), if the 55exiled card wasn’t cast and was moved to a public zone, effects referencing the discarded card can find that object.

None of these exceptions in the spoiler tags apply, so when a Do-It-Yourself-Seraph exiling Spine of Ish-Sah dies, it does return to the battlefield, but it then no longer remembers that it previously exiled the Spine, so the next time it dies, it will not return to the battlefield. At least, that's my interpretation of the rules

It is true that changing zones makes it forget what it exiles. See the new legendary frog, it croaks it's way around this forgetting rule.

 

[Velrun]

Thank you for always being so polite @Onderzeeboot
I know that you are 100 % certain about the game treating the Seraph as a new object when it enters the battlefield the second time. But you write it in such a polite way. I fear I will never learn how to express myself properly in writing. I am not a harsh person in real life.

 

[Sheltem]

Wow, I was only a few days away.
From how I see it Seraphs ability isn‘t a cloning effect. People are right that usually something like Glasspool Mimic might work with an ability like Spines. But from how I read the Seraph it isn’t a cloning effect, so the text box will still refer to a card called Spine and not the Seraph itself.
But I might be in the wrong here. It is an Un-card after all.