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FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I never actually included Opalescence. I did run Humility and am considering putting it back in if I don't go with the Wave. The reasons I listed were not intended to be arguments for not including it (though they certainly could be used that way): I would literally run it without the loophole just like I run Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere without it.

Also is Auratog ever good, even with obscene enchantment support? Atog was a good card in its time, but a lot of good artifacts cost zero or one.



He just looks so happy!
 
Lucre

Lucre

FlowerSunRain said:
Whether or not I like the loophole (and I'll be honest, I don't), its not intuitive. Needing to explain an interaction with the technicalities of a rule rather then simply the face value intention is inelegant. More simply, the people I play with don't care enough to study the rules technicalities involved and are happy to play with cards as they appear to look. I run oblivion ring and journey to nowhere with no problems.

Being a 5 for 2 with Ronom Unicorn or Seal of Cleansing both seems unfun and a needless "gotcha" for the average player.
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I think my thing here is the same as my thing for stacking damage. I usually play with the people who get this stuff and I just prefered the interaction to not having access to it. I always try to let people know what happened and give them a chance to replay once I realize there is some experience disparity, unless I'm in a competitive setting. I don't getcha people. I just like to think of it as a card that does that thing among other things.

Also when I hear the words 6 mana 5 for 2 combo I tend to be pretty comfortable with it. Especially if it hinges on your opponent having 4-5 creatures in play.
If I've spent 6 mana and two cards to deal with 3 opposing creatures I'm feeling pretty unexcited.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Lucre said:
I just saw what you said and it seemed weird to me because champion and stormkirk aren't tempo loses to me, unless your baseline is at 2/1 for 1 mana, and to me that is not the impression you want to be nerfing removal under. Getting into medium creature territory from doing things you'd be doing anyway (attacking, playing small creatures) is not a tempo hit. Neither is waiting for your 1/1 to turn into a 3/2 flyer at no investment of mana beyond the paltry 1 blue for a 1/1 which fits very nicely into most curves without much consequence. I think it's great if it's been working out for you but I know a lot of people here share your inclination and I have always had trouble explaining my view to them and I'm hoping through this folks might see where I'm come at odds with their reasonings.
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I see where you are at odds, but I think--as I originally suggested--that you just have a preference for formats that cater more towards the card advantage/answer end of the spectrum--which is fine.

I am absolutely running a tempo focused format. I absolutely do not want people sitting back on removal, playing signets, wrathing the board, and casting divinations. I don't want reactive decks that just absorb X damage and whose non-signet curve starts at 4 mana--I want them under pressure, interacting, and committing control pieces to the board in order to both survive and further a control gameplan.

The aggro cards in question are baseline a collection of 1/1s. They are powerful cards, with big upsides, and they will take over and dominate a game---if you are durdling and not interacting with them. If you do interact with them, something as simple as bouncing them is a huge tempo loss. Bouncing a 3/3 stromkirk noble is de facto removal and at least a two turn setback for the aggro player. A bounced delver that took several turns to flip is a big setback--maybe more depending on how long it takes to flip again. A bounced champion is never the same again, and represents a huge setback on whatever the aggro clock was. A combination of some bounce with a few decent blockers can really hold down the board against these types of threats. I realize I am skewing the format towards tempo, but that is why I run them.

Now that might not be a format you want to build--which is fine. I don't think cube is really a format, I think it’s a collection of formats, and your approach seems valid enough to me.
 
Lucre

Lucre

It's waaaaay easier to durdle and non interact when your removal costs 3-4 mana or requires a lot of your opponent enabling you with their decision making. That's where I'm at. I ain't durdling when I'm shocking your guy and Impulsing on turn 3. I'm trying to accrue advantage and spend my Starcraft money wisely and consistently because if I'm not your one and two cost guys already have a lot of turns and accumulated value on me.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Lucre said:
It's waaaaay easier to durdle and non interact when your removal costs 3-4 mana or requires a lot of your opponent enabling you with their decision making. That's where I'm at. I ain't durdling when I'm shocking your guy and Impulsing on turn 3. I'm trying to accrue advantage and spend my Starcraft money wisely and consistently because if I'm not your one and two cost guys already have a lot of turns and accumulated value on me.
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ElkY's epithet "Swiss bank account Terran" made a lot more sense when he was having success at poker too
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Screw it, Parallax Wave is an awesome mass removal card that both aggro and control are happy to play. You can't ask much more of your white wrath, can you? If the loophole is such a problem, errata it to work as Banishing Light does and simply notify your players of this.

Oh my, I just realized how much more elegant Wave's wording becomes!

Parallax Wave {2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
Fading 5 (This permanent enters the battlefield with five fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can't, sacrifice it.)
Remove a fade counter from Parallax Wave: Exile target creature until Parallax Wave leaves the battlefield.

ROOM FOR FADING REMINDER TEXT!
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

I don't mind the Wave shenanigans either, but they haven't come up all too often anyway. On its own, the card does provide a lot of interesting decisions to make, especially with so many ETB abilities to potentially reuse on your own side.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Onderzeeboot said:
Screw it, Parallax Wave is an awesome mass removal card that both aggro and control are happy to play. You can't ask much more of your white wrath, can you? If the loophole is such a problem, errata it to work as Banishing Light does and simply notify your players of this.

Oh my, I just realized how much more elegant Wave's wording becomes!

Parallax Wave {2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
Fading 5 (This permanent enters the battlefield with five fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can't, sacrifice it.)
Remove a fade counter from Parallax Wave: Exile target creature until Parallax Wave leaves the battlefield.

ROOM FOR FADING REMINDER TEXT!
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I'm interested in trying this card again. How difficult is it to assemble shenanigans? Does it just end the game out of aggro? Is it any good in control? Etc.

also while we're at it

 
Lucre

Lucre

Removing two blockers for several turns can just end a game.
Removing two attackers for several turns can keep you in a game in time to make your comeback.
 
miles

miles

Lucre said:
Removing two blockers for several turns can just end a game.
Removing two attackers for several turns can keep you in a game in time to make your comeback.
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this has been my experience as well. shenanigans are pretty rare, but also pretty awesome. it does depend on what enablers for it you have though, because having to use something like venser, shaper savant is super mana intensive (although with venser you get to replay the wave again later)
 
miles

miles

those don't exile a million things permanently though, unless you have aether vial for the flickerwisp. well i guess brago can exile things more or less permanently hah
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
miles said:
those don't exile a million things permanently though, unless you have aether vial for the flickerwisp. well i guess brago can exile things more or less permanently hah
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True, but refreshing your Wave is very powerful as well. I also run some instant enchantment removal for the perma-exile interaction.

Edit: That's to say, I don't run it for the express purpose of interacting with Wave this way, it just happens to.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I have to admit I swapped out Oblivion Ring for Banishing Light for the express purpose of preventing shenanigans. The reverse side of figuring this interaction out for the first time is the time where you don't figure it out yourself, but feel totally cheated because your opponent uses his rules knowledge to his advantage and blows you out.

I am seriously considering an errata on Parallax Wave at this moment. The card offers so much play and is super awesome when used as intended, but the perma-ban interaction is not a desirable one imho.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Goldenpineapple said:
Does this do anything?
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Yes, it deals 1 damage to defending player whenever its controller attacks with a creature with power 2 or less. :p

It's also a Hellrider with two upsides: it's cheaper to cast and harder to remove! Seriously though, I think there are better enchantment to reward attacking with small dudes. Captive Flame/Ghitu War Cry lets them trade up, and Five-Alarm Fire lets you build up a giant fireball that can be aimed at creatures as well. Shared Animosity is also pretty good if you happen to run decently sized tribes in your aggro colors.

Edit: Apparently I'm a slow typer :)
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Onderzeeboot said:
Yes, it deals 1 damage to defending player whenever its controller attacks with a creature with power 2 or less. :p

It's also a Hellrider with two upsides: it's cheaper to cast and harder to remove! Seriously though, I think there are better enchantment to reward attacking with small dudes. Captive Flame/Ghitu War Cry lets them trade up, and Five-Alarm Fire lets you build up a giant fireball that can be aimed at creatures as well. Shared Animosity is also pretty good if you happen to run decently sized tribes in your aggro colors.

Edit: Apparently I'm a slow typer :)
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Someone else on these boards recently reminded me of Alpha Orcish Oriflamme:

167.jpg


I just added one to my cube yesterday.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I went immediately looking for that one too, but it's just a bit too expensive for my tastes. I guess that effect is definitely printable at two mana by today's standards though, so who knows?
 
Goldenpineapple

Goldenpineapple

Jason Waddell said:
Yeah, a lot actually. If you cast Raid Bombardment, but pay an extra {R}, you get a 3/3 creature with haste!
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I realize that, but being a creature with a valuable non-ETB effect is a risk. Your opponent doesn't want to doomblade your shitty 2/1s but hellrider? Of course! Figured I'd ask if this was any good- single C doesn't hurt either.
Onderzeeboot said:
Captive Flame/Ghitu War Cry lets them trade up, and Five-Alarm Fire lets you build up a giant fireball that can be aimed at creatures as well.
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Having to pay to pump sucks / can get you blown out. Completely forgot about five-alarm fire though, that was one of my favorite cards from that set. Kinda sucks that it's so slow / vulnerable to bounces etc.
Diakonov said:
Orcish Oriflamme:
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Pretty funny that it's a completely different cost in alpha; I like it at {1}{R}!
 
Lucre

Lucre

Jason Waddell said:
Yes, but these techy things quickly become pretty dumb when you start seeing them week after week, despite their initial allure.
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I really doubt you will be seeing the ronom unicorn / bounce wave deck burning down the tables too consistently. You might see wave just doing it's normal thing pretty regularly to great effect but I wouldn't worry over much about that combo getting stale.
 
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