Baneslayer is just God awful to have to deal with. Sower of Temptation is so much more fun than that monstrosity.
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Baneslayer is pretty easy to deal with if you have 2 burn spells or like any removal spells saved up to be the top end card. I guess since it can avoid or take part in any combat it wants while still taking the game out of your opponents hands is pretty relevant. I just sorta consider it a very swingy stabilizer. It's not really interesting and suuuuuper oppressive in multiples (@christaylor)
Sower annoys me because I feel like I only win games I don't deserve to with it off bad draws the only real aspect that interests me (as I've said) is that it confers summoning sickness if you are the sort of person that hates good instant removal.
On that subject can we talk about removal? It's super relevant to current (delve, spells matter, graveyard) vs (on board themes conflicts).
Anyway lets skip the subject of white point removal spells for now because everyone is touchy on that, what are your favourite black ones?
have you guys found that 3cc removal spells are effective against 4cc creatures that generate more than one card/ body or like absolutely above the curve 1 and 2 drops?
Sower annoys me because I feel like I only win games I don't deserve to with it off bad draws the only real aspect that interests me (as I've said) is that it confers summoning sickness if you are the sort of person that hates good instant removal.
On that subject can we talk about removal? It's super relevant to current (delve, spells matter, graveyard) vs (on board themes conflicts).
Anyway lets skip the subject of white point removal spells for now because everyone is touchy on that, what are your favourite black ones?
have you guys found that 3cc removal spells are effective against 4cc creatures that generate more than one card/ body or like absolutely above the curve 1 and 2 drops?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
On don't hate Baneslayer that much anymore, but why run it when you can run archangel of thune? She fills the same niche, while also being combotific and not completely unkillable by 98% percent of the average cube in combat. Unless being unkillable in combat while being a finisher is the job you are looking for, but in that case isn't Gideon Jura pretty on point?
Right now my favorite black removal spell is ashes to ashes. It is just super interesting:
1) non-trivial casting cost
2) non-trvial additional cost
3) sorcery speed
4) game reversing effect
5) leads to interesting board states and decision trees
6) situational relevant exile clause
The card just oozes awesomeness compared to say, the blunt banality of toxic deluge.
I've been surprised at the work Dead Weight has done for me. I mean, its mostly a disfigure that supports constellation, but considering how many cube dudes have 2 toughness it gets work done.
Its hard to go wrong with black removal, though I avoid the 2 mana terror variants for aura-support reasons. The only one I don't like is dismember, but then again that isn't really a "black" card, is it?
Right now my favorite black removal spell is ashes to ashes. It is just super interesting:
1) non-trivial casting cost
2) non-trvial additional cost
3) sorcery speed
4) game reversing effect
5) leads to interesting board states and decision trees
6) situational relevant exile clause
The card just oozes awesomeness compared to say, the blunt banality of toxic deluge.
I've been surprised at the work Dead Weight has done for me. I mean, its mostly a disfigure that supports constellation, but considering how many cube dudes have 2 toughness it gets work done.
Its hard to go wrong with black removal, though I avoid the 2 mana terror variants for aura-support reasons. The only one I don't like is dismember, but then again that isn't really a "black" card, is it?
Regarding removal I don't think there's much room for discussion. The ultimate conclusion is, "It depends on what you want your Cube to do," and the only way to figure that out is to just play it, play the hell out of your Cube, and then decide if you like it.
Let me explain, discussion is great, it's just that you have to provide a ton of context when discussing this or that removal (or any other stock effect like Giant Growth). It's not an issue of whether Doom Blade is better than Go For The Throat or which one you personally prefer. The issue is whether you want Black to not kill Artifacts or not kill Black creatures in your Cube. If one plays Doom Blade, Go For The Throat, and Ultimate Price in a Cube then that person is not really asking themselves what they want Black to be able or not able to do. In this situation the question you have to ask yourself is "in the 2CMC slot, do I want 2-3 Doom Blades. 2-3 Ultimate Prices, or 2-3 Go For The Throats" or "Do I even want removal at the 2CMC slot. For Black? At Instant?" Removal isn't terribly interesting; it exists because you, as a designer, want players to be able to murder creatures. As a designer, it is up to you to decide how your players kill creatures. We may even decide that that we don't want removal to be good, varying on whatever criteria for "good" or "excellent" may be in your Cube.
TL;DR I guess what I'm getting at is that removal preferences cannot be discussed in a vacuum. We generally do a good job holding up someone's list when we read their posts because one needs to analyze the removal in context to all the creatures in the cube. One analyzes the CMC and Sorcery/Instant choice in relation to desired deck curve or "blowout potential" or usefulness of Auras. Sometimes, you analyze removal because of sweet interactions like Morbid/Persist/Undying or Evoke/Burning Vengeance.
I want to address the card Murderous Cut and why I don't like it in a specific context and that context is the frequency that people unfamiliar with your Cube participate in the Cube draft. I'm not saying the card is bad or that I wouldn't play it myself; I'm just exploring a situation wherein it's inclusion may be unpleasant. Regulars may know that there are Instants that cheat on mana cost with Delve (or cards like Daze) or in the case of something like Morbid, know that Brimstone Volley is lurking around and play with the knowledge that 3-damage may suddenly be 5-damage; or maybe they don't because nobody actually studies the Cube List or you just don't tell them or they like surprises. But new players (to Magic, Cube or your Cube) sometimes don't like surprises as I'm sure you all know that to some degree and maybe it would be beneficial to exclude a card like Murderous Cut just to avoid the chances that someone thinks, "How was I supposed to know to count the cards in the graveyard." because it could go either they learn from the experience or they could think "screw this."
Or maybe before a new player starts drafting you just tell them cards like Murderous Cut is a thing. Or Tragic Slip. Or Daze. Or that you are using Hallowed Burial or Terminus to address the higher-than-normal density of creature recursion like Gravecrawler or cards with Undying/Persist so people don't think that they're bulletproof from expected sweepers like Day of Judgment.
Let me explain, discussion is great, it's just that you have to provide a ton of context when discussing this or that removal (or any other stock effect like Giant Growth). It's not an issue of whether Doom Blade is better than Go For The Throat or which one you personally prefer. The issue is whether you want Black to not kill Artifacts or not kill Black creatures in your Cube. If one plays Doom Blade, Go For The Throat, and Ultimate Price in a Cube then that person is not really asking themselves what they want Black to be able or not able to do. In this situation the question you have to ask yourself is "in the 2CMC slot, do I want 2-3 Doom Blades. 2-3 Ultimate Prices, or 2-3 Go For The Throats" or "Do I even want removal at the 2CMC slot. For Black? At Instant?" Removal isn't terribly interesting; it exists because you, as a designer, want players to be able to murder creatures. As a designer, it is up to you to decide how your players kill creatures. We may even decide that that we don't want removal to be good, varying on whatever criteria for "good" or "excellent" may be in your Cube.
TL;DR I guess what I'm getting at is that removal preferences cannot be discussed in a vacuum. We generally do a good job holding up someone's list when we read their posts because one needs to analyze the removal in context to all the creatures in the cube. One analyzes the CMC and Sorcery/Instant choice in relation to desired deck curve or "blowout potential" or usefulness of Auras. Sometimes, you analyze removal because of sweet interactions like Morbid/Persist/Undying or Evoke/Burning Vengeance.
I want to address the card Murderous Cut and why I don't like it in a specific context and that context is the frequency that people unfamiliar with your Cube participate in the Cube draft. I'm not saying the card is bad or that I wouldn't play it myself; I'm just exploring a situation wherein it's inclusion may be unpleasant. Regulars may know that there are Instants that cheat on mana cost with Delve (or cards like Daze) or in the case of something like Morbid, know that Brimstone Volley is lurking around and play with the knowledge that 3-damage may suddenly be 5-damage; or maybe they don't because nobody actually studies the Cube List or you just don't tell them or they like surprises. But new players (to Magic, Cube or your Cube) sometimes don't like surprises as I'm sure you all know that to some degree and maybe it would be beneficial to exclude a card like Murderous Cut just to avoid the chances that someone thinks, "How was I supposed to know to count the cards in the graveyard." because it could go either they learn from the experience or they could think "screw this."
Or maybe before a new player starts drafting you just tell them cards like Murderous Cut is a thing. Or Tragic Slip. Or Daze. Or that you are using Hallowed Burial or Terminus to address the higher-than-normal density of creature recursion like Gravecrawler or cards with Undying/Persist so people don't think that they're bulletproof from expected sweepers like Day of Judgment.
Yeah great posts guys ^ But I think I should have clarified
I want to know what your faves are and why. What you feel like it is there for in your cube and why you chose it over other options. Do you feel like no one should be able to kill a 5 mana spell with a 2 mana spell without some sort of drawback? Do you feel like most problems should be resolved on the battlefield and removal is only there for emergencies? Do you feel like your choices enable or disable certain archetypes?
I want to know what your faves are and why. What you feel like it is there for in your cube and why you chose it over other options. Do you feel like no one should be able to kill a 5 mana spell with a 2 mana spell without some sort of drawback? Do you feel like most problems should be resolved on the battlefield and removal is only there for emergencies? Do you feel like your choices enable or disable certain archetypes?
My favourite piece of removal from my non budget cube is
its very powerful and kills most things in my cube, I think at most I have 2 Vamps, 3 Zombies and 1 Werewolf and usually black doesn't care to much about the BB casting cost.
In my other cube I am really growing on
I love the fact that like Force of Will, you could be sat there all tapped out and out of nowhere deal 3 damage to a creature, also
seems to be an interesting card with Planeswalkers and +1/+1 counters.
its very powerful and kills most things in my cube, I think at most I have 2 Vamps, 3 Zombies and 1 Werewolf and usually black doesn't care to much about the BB casting cost.
In my other cube I am really growing on
I love the fact that like Force of Will, you could be sat there all tapped out and out of nowhere deal 3 damage to a creature, also
seems to be an interesting card with Planeswalkers and +1/+1 counters.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
How 'bout that new morbid spell?
Haven't seen it in action during my last cube draft, but it looks super sweet.
Haven't seen it in action during my last cube draft, but it looks super sweet.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
How 'bout that new morbid spell?
Haven't seen it in action during my last cube draft, but it looks super sweet.
My drafters threatened to put my head on a pike if I added it, and I was kinda lukewarm on it anyways. I'm all for making black removal a little less easy to slide into a blue/white control deck, but a 2cc twinstrike is a bit much.
Baneslayer is pretty easy to deal with if you have 2 burn spells or like any removal spells saved up to be the top end card. I guess since it can avoid or take part in any combat it wants while still taking the game out of your opponents hands is pretty relevant. I just sorta consider it a very swingy stabilizer. It's not really interesting and suuuuuper oppressive in multiples (@christaylor)
Sower annoys me because I feel like I only win games I don't deserve to with it off bad draws the only real aspect that interests me (as I've said) is that it confers summoning sickness if you are the sort of person that hates good instant removal.
On that subject can we talk about removal? It's super relevant to current (delve, spells matter, graveyard) vs (on board themes conflicts).
Anyway lets skip the subject of white point removal spells for now because everyone is touchy on that, what are your favourite black ones?
have you guys found that 3cc removal spells are effective against 4cc creatures that generate more than one card/ body or like absolutely above the curve 1 and 2 drops?
I do wanna say the reason I added a second baneslayer was because black needed the effect, not because I felt my cube needed two
I'd probably have removed the first one if my wife didn't love the card so much.I still think black needs a big lifelinking creature so that not everything against a UB control deck has wither, while white can just keep on fighting most of the time, but I havent really found one yet. I kinda want blood baron of vizkopa, but without being 2 colors and dual protection and...yeah. Double Vampire Nighthawk has been good for now (and lots of incinerates means he isn't game over against aggro)
Removal: Ultimate price is okay, but wiffs more often than you'd think it would. I actually like go for the throat more, but they're both instant speed
Shriekmaw is awesome, but I don't think my cube could handle two. He's really really good.
Expunge seems super loose to me
Then again my control decks have quite a few creatures in them, so there's less incentive to cycle it, since most everybody will have targets.Downfall I've been super happy with actually. You don't want too many of an effect like that, but hitting walkers is nice, and 3cc isn't unpalatable.
Dismember is okay, it has a very real downside except when it doesn't, so I felt is mostly wasn't worth the variance.
Slaughter Pact is a card I love in theory: Awesome Stories, but it's much less efficient than I thought it would be.
Last Gasp seems not very black
Haven't Tried Muderous Cut
Disfigure is a wannabe tragic slip
Tragic Slip is awesome
Vendetta is a weird one, I had a version that was pay x life: target creature gets -x/-x until EoT, and it was absolutly bonkers. While hitting nonblack, sometimes you get blown out by pump spells, so I fell like it's comparable to vendetta, maybe a bit better?
Consuming Vapors is the only edict I run anymore. Too many small one off creatures to be thrown under the bus.
CML
Contributor
god yeah there's a lot of these. after affliction and cut i've been thinking about making a spot removal thread.
here's the current lineup for my cube
notes:
i don't like ulcerate much but i do like that it is 1 mana. it is a good card and people will play with it, but again the efficiency is less relevant than it would be in constructed.
hero's downfall is kinda bland but balances the format pretty well
bone shredder is cool but eh only so many slots
last gasp and ultimate price are too frustrating to play with
disfigure is too boring given how many other options there are for conditional removal and/or 1-cmc removal
doom blade is a solid, classic option, go for the throat is basically the same thing
snuff out should probably be in, hard to justify both that and dismember too
i like vendetta
i also like slaughter pact
there are fewer options for edicts, which is why i've relegated it to a footnote here, but i run innocent blood and chainer's edict and liliana of the veil. barter in blood and consuming vapors are also fun, you can even do the wadds special fleshbag marauder, depending on what you're looking for
here's the current lineup for my cube
notes:
i don't like ulcerate much but i do like that it is 1 mana. it is a good card and people will play with it, but again the efficiency is less relevant than it would be in constructed.
hero's downfall is kinda bland but balances the format pretty well
bone shredder is cool but eh only so many slots
last gasp and ultimate price are too frustrating to play with
disfigure is too boring given how many other options there are for conditional removal and/or 1-cmc removal
doom blade is a solid, classic option, go for the throat is basically the same thing
snuff out should probably be in, hard to justify both that and dismember too
i like vendetta
i also like slaughter pact
there are fewer options for edicts, which is why i've relegated it to a footnote here, but i run innocent blood and chainer's edict and liliana of the veil. barter in blood and consuming vapors are also fun, you can even do the wadds special fleshbag marauder, depending on what you're looking for
What an abomination. What is it with these wall of text black cards from the old frame?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
God jesus christ. I can see how people are reminiscent of magic back in the day but there is a definite point where magic cards had really dumb conveyance and where it had less dumb (ie. now).
Its like, some of these card have only two rows of text in the errata.
Edit: Ok, I'm just soar after enduring a really horrific dudes grim mongo cube that had an oubliette.
Its like, some of these card have only two rows of text in the errata.
Edit: Ok, I'm just soar after enduring a really horrific dudes grim mongo cube that had an oubliette.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I love Oubliette though, it's great for both constellation and devotion
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
God I wish Ebon Praetor was cubable, that art is classic.
Also, I'm on team Oubliette, though I should probably sharpy the new wording onto it.
Also, I'm on team Oubliette, though I should probably sharpy the new wording onto it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yay! I'm not sure the new wording fits though. It's even longer than the original! o_O
On some rare occasions the old derpy templating works better for clarity AND flavor than the oracle text.
Oracle text:
Cast Camouflage only during your declare attackers step.
This turn, instead of declaring blockers, each defending player chooses any number of creatures he or she controls and divides them into a number of piles equal to the number of attacking creatures for whom that player is the defending player. Creatures he or she controls that can block additional creatures may likewise be put into additional piles. Assign each pile to a different one of those attacking creatures at random. Each creature in a pile that can block the creature that pile is assigned to does so. (Piles can be empty.)
Oracle text:
Cast Camouflage only during your declare attackers step.
This turn, instead of declaring blockers, each defending player chooses any number of creatures he or she controls and divides them into a number of piles equal to the number of attacking creatures for whom that player is the defending player. Creatures he or she controls that can block additional creatures may likewise be put into additional piles. Assign each pile to a different one of those attacking creatures at random. Each creature in a pile that can block the creature that pile is assigned to does so. (Piles can be empty.)
I like the idea behind the new art, but it could have been better. I still like it. The text is definitely an eye sore, though.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I'm glad the thread took this tangent while I was away so I can introduce you all to:
I'm glad the thread took this tangent while I was away so I can introduce you all to:
Well at least you get to draw a card I suppose.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I kinda hate oubliette since it's just shitty black journey to nowhere. in a color that has better removal most of the time.
It really should cost BB
It really should cost BB
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It hits everything everything though, and plays into themes on other black removal spell does. Plus, Magic games tend to be more interesting if the removal isn't much cheaper than the creatures. It's why I only run a single Path to Exile, and no Swords to Plowshares anymore.
Thanks for the replies guys! I think this might warrant it's own new post. I know we've had removal threads but they tend to get convoluted kinda quick. For now I'm supes curious about how much removal you think is necessary vs how much black can support in order to like enable archetypes, make baneslayer and sower fair cards etc.