Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I cut her from my cube a long time ago for this exact reason.
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Not in my experience. Theee upticks and a downtick is 27 power on the board. With flying.
It’s closer to GRBS than fair in my experience.
Usually not all 27 power is alive by that time. To have all 9 soldiers survive in the manner described means the opponent is putting up zero fight and should have conceded. Often almost every soldier dies defending Elspeth or being killed by removal until the control deck draws a boardwipe, or she takes off a turn to boardwipe herself. She drags the game out and focuses the gamestate around her. For that I agree she's GRBS.
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there’s also a lot of ways to just kill her for 1-2 mana, which just makes the experience of playing with/against her that much more of a wild variance trip. like seriously, she’s an EDH card
I've played with this card a bunch in retail limited, and I think it's a nice token factory for aristocrats decks. This card really does not play well with other decayed cards, so don't go adding this in the same environment as Falcon Abominations, Diregraf Hordes, and Gisa, Glorious Resurrector. Jadar is ideally going to be the only decayed card in a given deck. When he is all alone, he's a great source of sacrifice fodder on the level of Bitterblossom and Dreadhorde Invasion without the snowballing aspects of those cards.Has anyone played this?
Looks like a synergy piece to me, not particularly strong, but it would be nice to have a token producer that can't snowball or stall.
Wasn’t that covered in the ‘spot removal’ section?
The argument goes, if she’s not spot removed, she wins the game fast. Someone disputed this and I pointed out the math. Are you bringing back that it can again get spot removed? That feels like a circle argument.
I think the card is way too good for most cubes. It’s soooo strong when it hits and doesn’t get spot removed. And in my experience it also wins the game fast because it adds so much board presence each turn.
You remember how in Standard the win-con for U/W Control with Dominaria Teferi was just decking the opposition via tuck loops? The game is mostly over if backed with protection, but you can't explicitly close it out without going through the motions. The other side has already lost, but they just haven't realized it yet if they're inexperienced. That's pretty much where Sun's Champion lands. Big Elspeth backed with protection should be a scoop, but sometimes you still have to play it out because it's not explicitly lethal until you emblem and present it. It's not quite Grave Titan where you rep 10 and then 14 power before just closing it out in a turn or two. If two experienced players are playing then the losing side knows when its time to scoop em up versus Sun's Champ, but other players may not realize it.
I still think she's really strong and disagree with that EDH take. She's not good enough for EDH because walkers suck 1 vs. 4 unless backed with many wraths to keep the board clear and 3 chumps don't do enough in a turn cycle. If people have exhausted resources, especially in an environment like cube where premium removal is flying all over the place earlier in the curve, I think she's still really strong 8 years after printing.
I will concede that she's not quite as overwhelming as she used to be when straight planeswalker removal was pretty rare and we all got super excited by the printing of Hero's Downfall. There are a LOT of efficient ways to remove her now compared to before. We've even moved on from the generic sorcery speed variants at 3 CMC to quicker instant speed options like modal Baleful Mastery and Fateful Absence at 2 CMC. It's still a removal check like it was previously, but there are more opportunities now to cleanly answer a resolved Elsepth than before.
So I guess in a way it's not as oppressive as before, but I still think it's a very very strong card that presents that answer me or die scenario that I just don't think is great gameplay for Cube.
I like these both provided a higher power level. Teferi is kind of scary to me because he is so effective at protecting himself. Slamming him after a board wipe and being able to hold up a counterspell or spot removal is very strong. Plus, he can immediately replace himself, meaning that even if he does die you're not going down on cards. Being able to tuck a problematic permanent is also a great boon. Having said that, I don't think there is a much better gold U/W control signpost than Teferi. This card is a great value engine for control and he is definitely a worthy inclusion.
How are these as flagship cards for UW Control in a Cube that otherwise doesn't have many planeswalkers?
However, I don't like him as much as I like Elspeth.
The conventional wisdom about Elspeth, Sun's Champion being oppressive or too good is no longer pertinent outside of low power or explicitly slow environments in 2021.
I used to play Elspeth, Sun's Champion years and years ago when I was first getting into Cubing, but I cut her on the advice of others because she is very strong. I was told that the card created too many tokens for many decks to punch through and that her -3 ability was extremely punishing to decks that played big creatures. I was very hesitant to try Elspeth, Sun's Champion again in my Cube, but she was a perfect fit given the goals of my environment. Elspeth saw a lot of play during the Theros-Khans standard season, being what many would consider a defining card of the format. She saw loads of play in Abzan midrange builds as well as her fair share of Esper control lists. Since a key point of my Cube is to include cards that saw extensive play during the 2014-15 Standard season (as well as cards from key decks in other competitive formats at the time), Elspeth, Sun's Champion was basically a must run.
As it turns out, Elspeth, Sun's Champion is not actually a problematic card anymore. Even though my power level isn't anywhere near the top of the power band, the average creature is so much better and there are so many more Planeswalker removal spells that Elspeth is not oppressive. There is an abundance of small evasive creatures that Elspeth can't meaningfully interact with such as Dragon's Rage Channeler, Order of Midnight, Selfless Spirit, and Clarion Spirit tokens that are effectively planeswalker murder machines. As @shamizy also pointed out, there is alot more playable removal for Planeswalkers than there used to be, such as Murderous Rider, Bloodchief's Thirst, and the new Fateful Absence. There's a reason why Teferi sees eternal format play and Elspeth doesn't– she's not really that hard to deal with.
Elspeth actually has a lot of extremely desirable play patterns. She doesn't come down until later in the game, so proactive decks can generally hold on to a strong lead. However, she defends herself well from slower decks, making the 6 mana sorcery speed investment to cast her a little less jarring. While she is a great control card, more reactive leaning midrange decks are also happy to play her. She can build a board, but she doesn't create so much presence in any one sitting as to overwhelm a player who's ahead– she is no Grave Titan. Even when she does get to -3 and kill a bunch of big creatures, she leaves herself vulnerable to small creatures or burn that can clean her up. All in all, Elspeth, Sun's Champion has been a really fun card to have around and I feel her presence has made my format more interesting. She's a very cool and unique control finisher compared to the blue card draw engine Planeswalkers in my Cube.
The average card quality has improved so much since Elspeth was first printed 8 years ago that issues that used to plague the card aren't problematic anymore. Creatures are so much more powerful and Planeswalker removal is so much easier to find that the downsides of Elspeth are entirely mitigated. She's not the best option for low power environments or slow Cubes where every deck is playing abundant 5 and 6 drops, but these are the only places where she is often going to be problematic. If your Cube is trending towards powerful cards and archetypes, Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a great addition for a variety of fun and interactive decks.
Thank you for listening to my TED talk.
(My Cube link for Context)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Interesting
I don't think this is entirely accurate. If your cube is extremely low to the ground and attempting to emulate Constructed with its mana curves and card inclusions then yes, Elspeth is likely too slow to be oppressive if the opponent's board has been fleshed out with proactive and efficient low cost threats. This is the same issue with cards like JTMS or Urza, Lord High Artificer in Modern where 4 mana is now just too slow in a world full of cheap threats like DRC and Monkey, Urza's Saga, and hyper efficient planeswalker removal ala Unholy Heat abound. But I wouldn't say that either of those two cards are weak.
However, I don't think that that's a fair barometer to judge the power level of a cube. A cube built around specific constraints in regards to curve and efficiency is a heavily curated environment that has been built for a certain playstyle but I don't think that's a baseline that should be assumed to be the norm. Plenty of cubes that are of a high power level still deploy 4 and 5 mana cards that can make big impacts in a game if resolved. I get the dies to removal argument that dominates Constructed discussion and what determines playability, but I don't think that's as useful within the context of cube design.
When I think lower powered it's more making the choice to actively play lesser options instead of the top version of a given effect. Like Galepowder Mage instead of Restoration Angel,Omen of the Sea and other 2CMC cantrip options instead of Preordain or Ponder, or Dread Return instead of super efficient reanimation ala Reanimate or Animate Dead. It's design choices to create certain gameplay patterns that would not be present in cubes trying to maximize the power level of their inclusions. I think we might just have completely different definitions of what constitutes a lower-powered environment.
More evasive creatures that apply pressure yes, but I don't know if that suddenly makes Elspeth more palatable. It's not just one side that'll be deploying answers and developing a board presence in a game. Presumably you've been trading resources with the opponent to end up with a board state where you can deploy Elspeth as the finisher. And even if we have more efficient removal nowadays, often times you need it to match up with more pushed threats lower in the curve which might exhaust resources to where you won't have an answer ready for a resolved Elspeth. What's more realistic is that both sides have been firing off removal back and forth to pick off lower costed pushed threats on both sides to maintain parity. If you just deploy an Elspeth without evaluating the board state then sure she's going to suck in the face of evasive attackers, but I don't think this diminishes how powerful she can be. Elspeth is still hard to deal with if she sticks around. Just having more efficient removal available doesn't mean that you'll just have it in hand and ready to deploy.
Big Teferi still sees eternal play mostly due to the fact that it generates card advantage with a +1, is cheaper to deploy, and has a minus ability to protect itself that just lines up way better in those formats where it's usually a matter of timely trading 1-for-1 with interaction versus threats to maintain parity. The presumption is that answering threats and countering spells gives you the opening to resolve and deploy a Teferi without threat of retaliation due to the lack of hasty threats or potential manlands present in the format. If you can resolve an Elspeth and keep her around in the same scenario she'll likely win you the game, but these formats are just more hostile with the type of threats and interaction that are readily available. It's all contextual based on a given environment, but I wouldn't say that she's a weaker card as a result. It's like how Monastery Mentor was (is?) bonkers in Vintage but has never been a thing in Modern. Strong card, but sometimes the environment just isn't conducive to success.
Yeah, I just don't agree with this take. Unless we're working with a very specific definition of high powered here, Elsepth is still plenty strong as a card in the vast majority of cubes. Like I can totally see why you'd say Elspeth isn't a big deal since your linked cube has an atypical distribution of 2s and has very low average CMC for deployed threats and presumed decks. But I don't think this is a typical starting point when evaluating Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I just think that presenting itself as a removal check where it's an answer me or lose card is still very much in play in 2021.
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I do have to agree that your cube, @TrainmasterGT, is worlds apart from e.g. my Wheel of Change cube. For example, you run 11 (!) one mv mana acceleration options in green, I run 0. My mana ramp starts at 2 mv in green, and 3 mv in nongreen (including artifacts). You've got (the greatest) 1 mv discard options, I run them at 2 mv. Whereas you run a whopping five black planeswalker options, I run only one, and it's Never // Return, which is arguably weaker than all of your options. Like, there's certainly overlap in cards, but the play patterns will still be wildly different, and I don't think you can make a blanket statement that Elspeth, Sun's Champion isn't going to be a problem in cubes anymore these days.
That doesn't mean you don't make a good case that this Elspeth can be an exciting and non-GRBS option in cubes these days, I just don't think it's going to be that all, or even most of the time, particularly around here.
That doesn't mean you don't make a good case that this Elspeth can be an exciting and non-GRBS option in cubes these days, I just don't think it's going to be that all, or even most of the time, particularly around here.
This post kind of reads to me like you believe I'm arguing from the position that Elspeth is a bad card, which is not what I am saying. I'm seeing all of these posts from users who haven't played with Elspeth in years saying how she's oppressive GRBS when I know from recent experience that this is not true. I think this argument did hold water at one point when the card was first printed, and there are still plenty of environments where she leads to undesirable play patterns, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be a consideration.
Cube speed and power level aren't inherently linked. While it is true that building a fast low-power environment is more difficult than building a slow high-power cube, that doesn't change the inherent power level of either environment. What does change based on Cube speed is how certain cards interact within said environment. You seem to understand this in your discussion of Urza, new threats, and Unholy Heat, but then you keep going back to the power level point for some reason.
Like, yeah, you can have a high-power Cube where every deck is playing 5 or 6 drops in the mainboard and players don't start to develop their board until turn three on average, but that completely changes the relationships between broad swaths of cards. In that context, Elspeth might be too much because players won't have enough time to develop their board before they have to deal with her. That's probably the situation where she is nothing more than a removal check. But, I also acknowledged the fact the speed of a Cube matters for this card in literally my first sentence.
I don't believe whether or not we agree as what constitutes as low power actually matters here. I only mentioned power level because I think good Planeswalkers like Elspeth and Teferi are going to be a little bit much even for fast cubes focusing on lower power cards. Any good Planeswalker is going to be hard to beat in a fast pauper cube, for example.
Sure but that's just the point of a control finisher. You wait until your opponent has exhausted most of their resources, then you slam your big thing and hope it can win. Honestly that's what teferi does as well. The big issue with Elspeth was that she could come down on boards that weren't totally safe and she could throw up a wall with tokens. The newer evasive threats and improved removal make it much harder to get to a positon where playing an Elspeth is safe. Actually that's a big reason why she feels safe now– there are way fewer situations where she can just come down and warp the game in a manner different from any other control finisher because answers are much easier to find. Having more answers makes it much easier to find an answer when one is needed.
Shamizy I think your framing is all wrong here and that it is leading you to an erroneous outcome. Reading every card through the nebulous idea of the "vast majority of Cubes" is simply never going to lead to a satisfying outcome when trying to uncover any sort of truth regarding Cube design. Many Cubes are somewhere between a clone of a bad MTGO/MTGS list or are working somewhere in a retail limited style "10 2-color pair archetypes" space. However, running with the assumption that every card should be evaluated through this framework is deeply flawed. Cube design has evolved a lot in the last couple of years, but these advancements haven't filtered to every Cube designer yet. The "average" Cube, therefore, isn't going to even remotely mirror what an experienced and up-to-date designer like Dom might build.
Unfortunately, Dom did not really share any details about what the Cube he's working on looks like, how it's supposed to play, or what he's even looking for outside of the fact that the Cube doesn't have many Planeswalkers. We're left to kind of do a lot of guesswork as to what he might have meant for ourselves. When someone is asking about flagship control finishers and puts up a picture of both Elspeth and Teferi (who's likely the best U/W control finisher walker other than maybe Jace, the Mind Sculptor), it's not unfair to analyze those cards through a framework which might be suited to Cubes that lean a little more towards the constructed end of gameplay styles, especially when the dissenting view has already been shared ad nauseam.
Normally, I would try to encompass more design positions in what I have to say. The thing is, most of the anti-Elspeth arguments I'm seeing in this thread are from people who to my understanding haven't actually played with Elspeth, Sun's Champion at all recently. As previously stated, there's a lot more diversity in the Cube design space now than when Elspeth was first printed, and the card pool is quite different. I think it's totally fair to focus on the positive aspects of the card as it relates to modern design, especially when I'm arguing against negative viewpoints that were formed when the Magic ecosystem looked very different. While the negative arguments aren't irrelevant, they also don't encompass a huge swath of modern Cubes. While there was an age when Elspeth may have been unfair in many fair environments, the times have changed and that isn't even close to a guarantee anymore.
To be fair, I think I did not do a good enough job of illustrating in my first post that some of my experiences with the card are due to the context of my environment. My Cube isn't particularly far down the "this plays like constructed" rabbit hole, and I actively handicap my power level in certain areas to make sure certain old favorites can put up similar results to their time in Standard. It's also not much faster than many of the recent "old school" high-power designs I've seen can muster. As such, I felt more comfortable than I normally might in using absolute language. I shouldn't have done that. But to be balanced, when I'm arguing against positions that are equally context-specific and also deeply engrained within this community, I feel it makes sense to try to use more absolute language. I believe my current experience with the card is going to be more relevant to a Cube being built from the ground up in 2021 using modern design theory than an opinion that was formed years ago.
I appreciate your perspective, and to your credit I think you have better arguments than some of the other anti-Elspeth rhetoric in this thread. However, I think a lot of people, including you, just aren't fully considering how much magic has changed since Elspeth was first printed. The general "Elspeth is oppresive" view is not as salient as it used to be because modern Cube construction techniques tend to eliminate many of the situations where Elspeth can feel unfair. There are a ton of environments now where Elspeth, Sun's Champion can have a net positive impact on the format. I think we should try and explore these new options instead of writing off the card. Exploration is what this forum is all about. Is it not?
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I just think Elspeth is so joyless, on either side of the table. I'd rather lose trying to pull off Sun Titan shenanigans than win ticking up Elspeth.
I covered this in my response to Shamizy, but I was still writing that when you posted this.
I shouldn't have used as absolute language as I did in my first post. Most of the anti-Elspeth comments I've been seeing have been treating the card as having a universally negative effect on the game. There are plenty of environments where she doesn't, but a lot of people don't seem to recognize that. Since most of the anti-Elspeth comments seemed to be using absolute language based on old experience, for some reason I thought it would be a good idea to be equally as resolute. Obviosuly it wasn't but whatever.
It's just really frustrating to see a legitimately enjoyable card being written off like this even though it's actually perfectly fine in many cases these days. I don't think that's who we are supposed to be.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
But why would thinking Elspeth is GRBS based on your own experiences be "not who we are supposed to be". I think that's blowing things a bit out of proportions. Like, your point of view is more recent, but your cube is also a lot lower to the ground and geared towards planeswalker removal than other cubes here. I still wouldn't be comfortable running Elspeth, Sun's Champion, because of both past experiences and knowing where my current cube is at in terms of speed and answers. Plus, I consciously pushed back the number of planeswalkers, and am considering cutting even more, because I don't particularly enjoy their play patterns most of the time (there are exceptions).
These are conflicting opinions, yes, but that doesn't mean someone is wrong. Like you said, there are a myriad ways to construct a cube, and the answer to the question "is Elspeth, Sun's Champion a goo fit for my cube?" is not going to be the same for everyone, and neither is the answer to the question "do I think Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a fun card?"
The problem isn't that people don't like the card or find it unenjoyable. Like, I think the Wildfire archetype is no fun, but I don't think people should cut Wildfire from their Cubes if they like the card. I just have a big problem with people dismissing a card out of hand when there are plenty of environments where it's not only perfectly safe but also pretty fun for people who enjoy it.
FWIW I think your Cube falls in the camp of "low power or explicitly slow environments." I really don't think Elspeth would be a safe inclusion for you based on the type of gameplay you wish to curate.
This post kind of reads to me like you believe I haven’t played with Elspeth in years.
I run two. A Theros in foil and an altered art.
My cube link for context
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/q0a?view=spoiler
Dom Harvey
Contributor
In the same vein as Elspeth:
I want a beefy black finisher and reanimation target - this is the obvious one that many of us labelled as too strong for our Cubes years ago. For those of you who do play it or gave it another chance, what's the verdict in 2021?
I want a beefy black finisher and reanimation target - this is the obvious one that many of us labelled as too strong for our Cubes years ago. For those of you who do play it or gave it another chance, what's the verdict in 2021?
In the same vein as Elspeth:
I want a beefy black finisher and reanimation target - this is the obvious one that many of us labelled as too strong for our Cubes years ago. For those of you who do play it or gave it another chance, what's the verdict in 2021?
Literally just took it out of the cube after reluctantly giving it another chance a couple weeks ago. Players couldn't answer it in time and created a multiple non-games and feel bads. For now, keeping to Archon of Cruelty and Sheoldred, Whispering One for in-color targets.
If you want a reanimation target that can also be used as a curve topper in a more controlling deck it is best to stick to mv 6. Grave Titan is a bit dull as it can be chumped indefinitely while producing tokens to gum up the board.
I prefer Noxious Gearhulk which gives a solid two-for-one, a bit of lifegain, limited evasion and opportunity for artifact interactions. If you are going for more of a reanimation target, Archon of Cruelty has good ETB effects but should close the game quickly if it survives.
I prefer Noxious Gearhulk which gives a solid two-for-one, a bit of lifegain, limited evasion and opportunity for artifact interactions. If you are going for more of a reanimation target, Archon of Cruelty has good ETB effects but should close the game quickly if it survives.
In the same vein as Elspeth:
I want a beefy black finisher and reanimation target - this is the obvious one that many of us labelled as too strong for our Cubes years ago. For those of you who do play it or gave it another chance, what's the verdict in 2021?
Have not played with it in cube for years, but have continued to play with it in an EDH deck. Still pretty strong and swingy, doesn't really create any engaging gameplay scenarios. You either run them over right away if reanimated early or you play it fairly and continue to go wide until you swing in for lethal. It's a pretty lame card to play against in 1v1. My preferred reanimation targets in black are currently: