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Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Velrun said:


Opinions?
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Love it, but it never did anything while I ran it. I then tried Grindclock, which did get run, but is a bit one-dimensional, though I did get to play a very sweet game against it once in which I was able to copy and then destroy my opponent's clock, which he recurred, and then it was a really tight mill race :) I recently made the change to this little beauty, but I have no idea if it will stick.

 
ravnic

ravnic

Can anyone share any experiences in any kind of cube with this card? It's so tempting to build around with Flicker/Bounce/Disenchant effects, but ... is it good? Or is the upkeep trigger too sloq? Or the effects just not strong enough to invest 2 cards and 6+ mana in it?

 
japahn

japahn

List the cards in your cube that combo with it and imagine them in a deck with Demonic Pact. It's fairly easy to do that by searching for (o:"enchantment" or o:"permanent"). If those cards make a deck, it might have a home.

Oh, you need a low power level for the deck to be viable.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
People have been building around it in my cube, and it's been good. More importantly though, it's been fun!

Edit: be sure to include enough generic bounce in blue, a Kor Skyfisher/Flickerwisp effect or two in white, and enough enchantment removal in white and green. I think you need around three, ideally four answers to reset/kill the enchantment in your deck. If you can work it into your cube, Pact is also hilarious with Donate/Puca's Mischief effects, since your opponent can only choose things you haven't chosen yet (i.e. it "remembers" choices made by the previous owner of the Pact, as long as it doesn't leave play).
 
ravnic

ravnic

I have (counting O-Ring effects) 5 cards in white and also 4 cards in green (all with ca) that remove enchantments. I also run the following to bounce the Pact:



Although some if them like Wash Out feel like a stretch. I could easily bring back Emancipation Angel and add another bounce to blue. This is all at a cube size of 500. Would that be enough?
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
In my current 450 cube I run:



Of those, I don't consider Thrashing Brontodon and Zacama as feasible options because of my color wheel, and Ayli is so very conditional that it's hard to count on her exiling the Pact as well. This leaves me with 17 cards in 450, and I feel I have barely enough support for the card. I feel like I ought to make room for an additional card in both blue and white (black's allies in my cube) to make Pact more easily viable, but cutting cards is hard!

Of your list, I wouldn't count Wash Out and Ratchet Bomb as feasible options, leaving you also with 17 cards, but in a 500 cube. I think that's a tad short on support, though Upheaval, Brago, and the white creatures are all really, really solid with Pact.

NB Also, make sure your O-Ring effects work! Conclave Tribunal, for example, only exiles opponent's stuff and thus doesn't work with Pact!
 
japahn

japahn

I think 17 is enough. You don't need to draw these cards early, so having 4-5 versatile answers in a deck should be plenty. Seems like any combination of black + white, green and blue could support that.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
japahn said:
I think 17 is enough. You don't need to draw these cards early, so having 4-5 versatile answers in a deck should be plenty. Seems like any combination of black + white, green and blue could support that.
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I honestly don't think {B/G} can support Pact in his cube with only four options that (on average) won't all be in the draft (remember his cube is 500 cards big), and that you're fighting over with other green drafters. You really want at least 3 ways to get rid of Pact, provided you have sufficient card draw and can find the removal piece. If not, you need 4 or 5 to comfortably run it. {U/B}, like {B/G}, is questionable, though slightly less so, because it has one more piece and typically a lot more card draw than green. I just checked his white section, and the 5 cards that remove enchantments he mentioned did exclude the opponent-only O-Ring effects he also runs. In addition to the Emancipation Angel he added he currently runs 9 cards that can remove Pact. That definitely seems like enough to support the card in {W/B}.

In my cube {U/B} has five pieces as well, but it's 50 cards smaller! Also, if you can splash for Bolas, that's a sixth piece. At first blush, {W/B} has less ways to get rid of Pact in my cube than in Ravnic's cube. My artifacts, unlike Ratchet Bomb, are actually well suited for supporting a {W/B} Pact deck, though, meaning I end up at roughly the same proportion cube size considering. In addition, a splash for either green or blue is not unexpected in my cube, because I push three color decks quite hard, meaning in reality a {W/B}-based Pact deck can easily end up having access to even more options through a splash for a third color. Having said all that, I feel even my cube would welcome an additional card to get rid of Pact in both white and blue (especially blue).
 
Miasmir

Miasmir

Remember while counting Demonic Pact combos that

and friends count!

Also, this discussion has me realizing that my cube has around 2.2% self-answers for DP, much less than Onder's recommended 3.8% minimum. I'll need to add another 12 or 13 cards for this purpose. Things basically got this bad because all of my Oblivion Rings are gradually turning into opponent-only cards.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Well, one thing between our cube, Ondee, is that mine isn't multicolored focused at all, so 3-color decks of all combinations are easily possible and already pretty common. I think Pact will only rarely see play in 2-colored decks, maybe in Orzhov, but mostly I expect {B}{W}{U} and {B}{G}{W} decks to play it, maybe some {B}{G}{U}. The combo cards are also all mono colored with the exeption of Brago. With that update, I would have the following reliable combo cards at 500:



That sums up to 19 cards, which is almost 4% (counting Ratchet Bomb and Unstable Obelisk as half a card maybe)
In a normal 8 man draft, you see 276 cards, of which 11,4 will be answers to your own DP, statistically
I think that should be enough.

To prove the numbers, I drafted on cubetutor and started this one with a Demonic Pact p1p1
Ironically, it turned out 2-colored, but there are more than enough answers I think, according to Ondee's experience-based call
5 are in the main deck with Dispeller's Capsule, Riftwing Cloudskate and Brago in the sideboard.
Not sure how this would play out now, but the numbers appear to be fine. i even got the tutor for DP.

Orzhov Pact from CubeTutor.com













EDIT: I just realised Survivalist only targets opponents A/E. Damn, why, wizards. Okay, I'll add another version then over him I guess. The Brontodon probably.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I don't think Captive Audience really operates in the same space. It's effects are far more impactful than Demonic Pact's abilities are. Basically, if you get to trigger all three abilities, your chances of winning the game are very high, very high. I expect the ROI on bouncing it back to hand is quite low, even more so because the 'Discard your hand' effect is often near useless the second time around in a game of limited. Another nail in the coffin, for me, is that it's a Rakdos card. Neither of those colors can rebuy enchantments, meaning you have to play at least three colors to be able to "abuse" Captive Audience more than once. Splashing for a fourth color to have access to enough 'combo' cards is going to be a long stretch.
 
Velrun

Velrun

But!

On the other hand: It stays on the battlefield after all three chapters are executed. This means ther should be plenty of time to find a bounce spell.

That being said I think you guys are right and the stickiness doesn’t outweigh the slowness and the color commitment.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Velrun said:
But!

On the other hand: It stays on the battlefield after all three chapters are executed. This means ther should be plenty of time to find a bounce spell.

That being said I think you guys are right and the stickiness doesn’t outweigh the slowness and the color commitment.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wish they would print another card in the same vein as Demonic Pact. It's such a cool design, and I wouldn't mind slightly more card that would push you in the same direction!

Of course... I do run customs... Maybe I should just create one if I want one?
 
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