Slovakattack's first cube attempt (Legacy-Lite?)

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I'll let you in on a secret, don't tell anyone you got this from me, but these two reanimator spells are really, really sweet!



That's right, three mana is the sweet spot for reanimation spells in my mind, not too fast, not too slow, and this is the only playable option at that cost. Don't be afraid to double up on it!
 
You know, I find a lot of resemblance between your Cube and mine when it was in its infancy (which was a few short months ago, actually). I also wanted to support a lot of super cool archetypes and make a Cube that resembled a non-rotating format (even though I had Modern's power level in mind rather than Legacy's). Because of this, I will tell you what I did after receiving the first, precious feedbacks on these forums.

At the time, my Cube was just an Excel spreadsheet and a CubeTutor list. It didn't physically exist yet. A number of issues had been already identified and I knew I had to solve them before I could be satisfied with my list. So I just decided to restart from scratch, armed with the insights I collected on here: I thought it would be better to do it then, rather than sleeve up a list whose flaws I already knew.

I started from the numbers. I first decided how many cards I wanted in my Cube (the magic number was 405 for me) and then I focused on what archetypes to include. I was suggested to pick 6-7 archetypes and so I did (in retrospect, I can confirm that it is a good amount: less would make my list stale, more would make it unfocused). This was the most time-consuming part, for me: I wanted my archetypes to have a certain degree of overlap, so that I could choose cards with broad applications. At the same time, I wanted to make sure that my archetypes included both aggro and control strategies. I also made sure that those archetypes allowed me to give at least a couple of deck options to every colour pair (I support all 10 colour pairs, but that's not compulsory). Another important thing to consider at this stage is the power level your archetypes have, compared to each other. For example, you can't have a Tinker deck and a Kithkin tribal deck in the same Cube and expect the Kithkins to be competitive.

Once I was done with this, I decided how big each colour section would be and how many gold, colourless and land cards I would have. For each of those sections, I decided how many cards would be creatures and how many would be noncreature spells. Then I decided how many of those cards would be 1-drops, 2-drops, and so on. Each colour has different needs, based on what you want them to do. I think it's crucial to decide your mana curve before you start choosing the actual cards to include. We are all partial to some cards, maybe because we once built a super sweet draft deck with them, or because they remind us of a standard format of yore that we particularly enjoyed. Having a rigid (or semi-rigid) grid helps to avoid such traps and keep on the right tracks.

The final step is, of course, compiling your Cube list. At last!

This approach will not give you the perfect Cube, of course. In my case, for example, some colours were a bit unbalanced power-wise and some archetypes were more effective than others. Still, the list felt much more coherent than my previous one. Even the first few drafts were quite enjoyable. There will always be room for improvement, but the foundations felt very stable from the get go.

I am telling you this because I think you are trying to patch your list without a systematic approach. Without looking at the bigger picture, I'd say. I know it might be annoying to do this, but I think it would be the best course of action in order to make your drafting experience more enjoyable from the very beginning.

Or maybe not. If this approach doesn't resonate with you, just go ahead and explore the way you are doing. This is a game, after all, and only you and your playgroup can decide what is right for you. Whatever brings you the most enjoyment is the best path ;)
Sorry for the long post!



Don't apologize for long posts, please! I really appreciate the help, and the more help, the better. Does there exist a 'tier list' of cube archetypes that I could maybe use to deduce the general power level of the archetypes to include?
 
Does there exist a 'tier list' of cube archetypes that I could maybe use to deduce the general power level of the archetypes to include?
Well, there's a thread called "Archetypes", might be useful to at least take a gander: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/archetypes.874/

In my mind, the major archetypes that are thrown around in discussion on most cubes are (some fairly obvious):
Rx aggro (recursive and not)
Ux control
Spells matter
Ramp
"Weenies"
Monsters
Skies/evasion
Reanimator

A lot of cubes around here also have: Pod

I think a solid exercise to go through is figuring out what deck types there are/you like in every color pair, and looking at the ones you want to be using in your environment.
Taking UW as an example, a few solid options for that pairing might be:
Skies aggro
Draw-a-card.dec (think looters, jhessian thief, solid white removal and finishers, etc)
UW control
Blink value
Some of these might overlap, and that's fine. Finding spells that overlap is an exquisite pleasure in itself, and makes colors stronger overall. Seeker of the Way is an A+ example of this sort of card, as are Thirst for Knowledge, vendilion clique, and fiery confluence. I personally trimmed my section down to about three "archetypes" per color pair (Blink, Skies, classic control-tempoier). Note that doing this per pair will end you up with wayyyy more than 6-7 "archetypes". That's because archetypes in the Alphez post are more holistic for the entire cube. What 6-7 paths do you want your drafters to guide themselves down? For you maybe 8-10, cause your cube is bigger. They can be combinations of multiple color pairs, they can be available to virtually the whole cube (pod).
For example, imma look at "ramp". this is almost invariably a green-centric archetype. This drafter works the mana dork angle, going for big finishers with a smooth curve that enables plays on all turns. We can build up ideas from pairs and colors that can make the ramp deck happen, and in doing so provide a ramp deck of multiple varieties tied into individual things we want colors doing:

Green: we want a nice selection of high impact spells right in color (vorapede, PrimeTime, woodfall primus), and we need dork density.
Red: Have some monsters (Crater Hellion, thundermaw hellkite etc), and X burn spells shine here
Gruul: we decide this pair is focusing on the beats with monsters, combat tricks, and big removal.
Simic: We can put some big spells into simic. Gas up into big genesis waves, power out a Treasure Cruise, or slam an early Sphinx of Uthuun. Gives us options into mass bounce (cyclonic rift = yay)
White: Angels. Boom. Value enchantment removal backs up our feathered friends
Selesnya: we get X spells, token makers, big doods. Selesnya = maximum dudes on board (armada wurm :))

In this way we take what I'll call color pair identities, combine them with what you want to be doing with your colors, and the Ramp.dec becomes an archetype, flexibly enabled across multiple colors. Black can easily be added too, often partnered with the reanimator archetype (ramp = backup way to get early big dood). Important step is reading up/knowing what holistic-style archetypes want to be doing: ramp is going for early mana acceleration to make up for a normally too-high curve. Early value creatures help carry the deck into it's prime zone. Card selection can help get either dorks or monsters when needed. Finding out this "general strategy guide" for other archetypes is key.

Hopefully a somewhat coherent glimpse into how I, at least, build up major archetypes. This will start to make pieces of the cube click into place. And it'll highlight areas that might have spells that aren't needed, or where you need more support "wow, Oring has come up like 7 times already" -> add banishing light. Etc. That is, your identities shape archetypes, which feeds back into shaping identities ("My white section is too slow, I want aggro to work in multiple pairs and colors" -> reducing white curve)

And as always, we are all here to help. Come forward with a rough list of overall themes, and we can start bashing out stuff.
 
I'm considering running two Grafted Wargear. I love everything about this card, and I don't think Bonesplitter really compares anymore. So I might give it the axe (heh heh) for a second Wargear.

If you're running explicit support for equipment (I am not) then I imagine the gap between Wargear and bonesplitter is even wider, as cheating a 1 mana equipment into play is pretty measly.
 
I'm workin' away! I should have something concrete from the 'top down' front soonish. So far, I've got:

U/R 'spells matter'
U/W 'blink abuse'/'cataclysm'
W/R 'equipment'
B/R 'aristocrats'
G/B 'dredge-style recursion/sacrifice'
U/B 'evasion/reanimator'/ self-mill
U/x 'tokens'
R/G 'super-ramp'
?/? Artifacts
C/C Eldrazi


I think that's enough of a base to start building something up from. What do you guys think?
 
I'm workin' away! I should have something concrete from the 'top down' front soonish. So far, I've got:

U/R 'spells matter'
U/W 'blink abuse'/'cataclysm'
W/R 'equipment'
B/R 'aristocrats'
G/B 'dredge-style recursion/sacrifice'
U/B 'evasion/reanimator'/ self-mill
U/x 'tokens'
R/G 'super-ramp'
?/? Artifacts
C/C Eldrazi


I think that's enough of a base to start building something up from. What do you guys think?
That is an excellent base! I'm really liking the layout and how things can overlap handily. For instances:
  • U/R 'spells matter' + U/x 'tokens' = URx 'token spells matter'
  • G/B 'Dredge-style recursion' + U/B 'reanimator/self-mill' = GBU 'Dredge sytle reanimator and self-mill'
  • G/B 'Dredge-style recursion' + G/R 'Super Ramp' = super rampy recursion
And so on, being able to do that just off the cuff is a very good sign :) . One other thing that I think will work well is GR ramp helping your C eldrazis get the mana they need. Now one question I have is the slots you want control to live in? Is that what you mean by 'Cataclysm'? Control can find a home all over UW, RW, UB, UG, WB, you name it basically. Just wondering where you hope your controlling decks will be taking their resources from.
 
Major update, everyone! I've taken a lot of your advice, and took another crack at the cube- this time from a top-down perspective. I've also taken the liberty of overhauling the initial post to reflect the changes. You can view them there. Any suggestions are much appreciated!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I gave it a whirl, and have to say this looks much more cohesive, and your aggro decks a lot more playable! One worry though is that your fixing is still sub par. You might run 55 lands, but 14 (? quick count) of those don't fix, leaving you with only 41 fixing lands. I would say at 450, 50 is the bare minimum to ensure solid mana bases.
 
I gave it a whirl, and have to say this looks much more cohesive, and your aggro decks a lot more playable! One worry though is that your fixing is still sub par. You might run 55 lands, but 14 (? quick count) of those don't fix, leaving you with only 41 fixing lands. I would say at 450, 50 is the bare minimum to ensure solid mana bases.


What would your suggestion be for the next 'cycle'?

I currently have Shocks/Fetches/painlands/filter lands (pains and filters help the Eldrazi 'colorless matters' splash.) as my mana-fixing core. I would consider putting in the Ravnica bounces, but those seem a bit strong in this cube. Perhaps the Temples? I'm a big fan of the temples in cube.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Well, you're running Swords of X & Y, Opposition, Recurring Nightmare, Brimaz, and a lot of other cards that are very stronk, I don't think adding a few Ravnica bounces would be a problem. I do note the original duals are missing though. There is some great art out there for the online printings which you could use for proxies!
 
I think you should go for either the original dual lands or a second set of shocklands. That would make your fetchlands much better.

I tried some drafts. I only saved a sweet Aristocrats deck, because in the other cases I didn't really come up with anything decent.

Impressions:
- gigantic improvements over the previous list ;)
- aggro is definitely draftable, but it's very very tough to stick to it when there are such bombs in the draft (once I found an Inferno Titan in the mid of pack 2, I was on a RW aggro deck... I could only think "why am I even doing this?" Picked the Titan and switched to midrange)
- some cards have wildly different power levels (I can't imagine Part the Waterveil or Vengeful Rebirth seeing play in your environment, for example)
 
I think you should go for either the original dual lands or a second set of shocklands. That would make your fetchlands much better.

I tried some drafts. I only saved a sweet Aristocrats deck, because in the other cases I didn't really come up with anything decent.

Impressions:
- gigantic improvements over the previous list ;)
- aggro is definitely draftable, but it's very very tough to stick to it when there are such bombs in the draft (once I found an Inferno Titan in the mid of pack 2, I was on a RW aggro deck... I could only think "why am I even doing this?" Picked the Titan and switched to midrange)
- some cards have wildly different power levels (I can't imagine Part the Waterveil or Vengeful Rebirth seeing play in your environment, for example)


Could you give me some examples of crazy outlier cards (the ones that seem too strong or too weak) and maybe some suggestions for replacements? I'm not fantastic at evaluating individual cards. Example:

I know that vengful rebirth is no Regrowth, but being able to turn your slain eldrazi titan into 10 points to the dome (and get it back!) seems worth the cost...
 
Well, you're running Swords of X & Y, Opposition, Recurring Nightmare, Brimaz, and a lot of other cards that are very stronk, I don't think adding a few Ravnica bounces would be a problem. I do note the original duals are missing though. There is some great art out there for the online printings which you could use for proxies!


I'm not sure what this forum's stance on proxies is, but... I actually have a rather extensive collection, which includes all the OG dual lands. Including them is not a price issue. This entire cube will be using non-proxied cards... I dunno if you guys like 'swag pics' or not, but I could take a couple once it's complete, if you'd like.
 
Could you give me some examples of crazy outlier cards (the ones that seem too strong or too weak) and maybe some suggestions for replacements? I'm not fantastic at evaluating individual cards. Example:

I know that vengful rebirth is no Regrowth, but being able to turn your slain eldrazi titan into 10 points to the dome (and get it back!) seems worth the cost...
An important part of card evaluation is recognizing the Average Case Scenario. How many Titans are you running that can stay in the yard? What are more likely candidates for things needing to be regrown? If you are using vengeful to regrow a bomb, could it not just be a bomb? Is it in line with what you want the color pair to be doing?
-The best Case Scenario is good to know, to see if something might be too good, but most plays are made "on average", so you are much more likely to be regrowing a Polukranos, Siege-gang commander, or even Sword of X+Y, which makes the {3}{R} for some damage a little less attractive.
-The worst Case Scenario is also important to realize. Six mana, Vengeful in hand and..... nothing much in the grave. A fetchland is about it. You've been ramping, dumped your hand of dorks and value drops out to build velocity and.... phfft. Dud.

Echoing errybody in saying that you are making leaps and bounds, looking very good :). Honestly, just get down to testing and having fun! Fiddling with intricacies only holds water for so long before you need raw data.

As for lands, either a second round of fetchables or the buddylands imo. You are aiming for a higher-powered affair, so a cycle of CIPT lands like temples would roadblock your aggro even more than it might already be.

On standout I noticed is spikeshot goblin. maybe you are trying to help your equipment theme with this... but your equipment mostly want to be dealing combat damage. That slot could be something along the lines of prophetic flamespeaker and still help that theme out.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I'm not sure what this forum's stance on proxies is, but... I actually have a rather extensive collection, which includes all the OG dual lands. Including them is not a price issue. This entire cube will be using non-proxied cards... I dunno if you guys like 'swag pics' or not, but I could take a couple once it's complete, if you'd like.

There are people who refuse to use proxies, and there are people who run an all proxy cube. Then there are people, like me, who run customs. No matter if you try to acquire all WotC-printed cards, your customs are going to be proxies no matter what you do.
 
There are people who refuse to use proxies, and there are people who run an all proxy cube. Then there are people, like me, who run customs. No matter if you try to acquire all WotC-printed cards, your customs are going to be proxies no matter what you do.


True that! I don't mind em', myself. Magic is all about having fun, and proxies are a way for more people to experience it.
 
Do any of the cards seem particularly extraneous? Too weak? Too strong? Are there any cards that I just don't know about, and should totally have in the cube?

I know that a lot of this information can only be gotten through testing, but I'd like to have a decent solidified list before sleeving this baby up, and you guys have been incredibly helpful in pointing out the odd cards out!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I'd like to have a decent solidified list before sleeving this baby up

Ultimately, sleeving a cube up is the best you can do, so that's my tip! There is no such thing as a perfect cube, and even obviously "flawed" cubes are often a hoot to draft. Just go out and see what you like, and what not. You got a solid base here, it's time to get cracking! :)
 
Could you give me some examples of crazy outlier cards (the ones that seem too strong or too weak) and maybe some suggestions for replacements? I'm not fantastic at evaluating individual cards. Example:

I know that vengful rebirth is no Regrowth, but being able to turn your slain eldrazi titan into 10 points to the dome (and get it back!) seems worth the cost...


Disclaimer: the power level I like is much lower than the one you are using here. This is my cube, for reference. Therefore I might be a bit biased. The thing is, I prefer people to focus heavily on synergy rather than raw power. This doesn't apply to every playgroup, though: it's possible that your friends aim for an entirely different experience. I am giving you my opinion, but I hope that doesn't push you away from your desired outcome!


That said; stuff I consider very strong (i.e. might convince me to change deck/colours if seen mid-pack):
Brimaz, King of Oreskos -> I run (and love) Hallowed Spiritkeeper. Still plenty strong, but more manageable than Kitty King
Hero of Bladehold
Sun Titan
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite -> Sunblast Angel, maybe?
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Dig Through Time
Tinker
Upheaval
Opposition
Pack Rat
Ophiomancer
Griselbrand -> untested suggestion. I'd like Avatar of Woe in a reanimator list. Powerful enough, more versatile, bonus points for the old-fashion vibe
Malicious Affliction
Living Death
Whip of Erebos -> I love the reanimation part; I loathe the lifelink part that makes games last forever
Vexing Devil
Inferno Titan -> I'm trying out Soul of Shandalar. Don't know if it'll be good enough, it's still untested
Primeval Titan
Skullclamp
The Swords of X and Y -> it's not easy to find as many good equipments. Probably because there aren't


Stuff that I consider too low-powered (i.e. would probably not run in my own Cube; would likely never consider drafting in your Cube)
Scattering Stroke
Part the Waterveil
Mardu Shadowspear
Remorseless Punishment
Spikeshot Elder
Mirari's Wake -> I'm not sure on what you want to accomplish with this slot. If you want something that enhances your creatures and shines when you have a lot of mana, I'd rather go with Gavony Township
Argentum Armor
 
Lot of good suggestions above, and in prior posts, but I'm with Onder here! Test time :). You can start figuring out for yourself what's underwhelming and overwhelming just by asking people how it went. Keeping super detailed account at least the first couple times helps, and helps us help ;).
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Did a test draft:

GW Ramp from CubeTutor.com











As others have said, there's a massive gap in power between the best cards in the Cube (staples in the most hardcore power-max Cube) and the 'worst'. Examples of the latter that stick out:

Reconnaissance, Whirlpool Whelm, Scattering Stroke, Sharding Sphinx, Pawn of Ulamog, Reaper from the Abyss, Sorin Markov, Remorseless Punishment, Goblin Sharpshooter, Guttersnipe, Mul Daya Channelers, Rakdos, Mina and Denn, Howling Mine, Argentum Armor, Sidisi
 
As others have said, there's a massive gap in power between the best cards in the Cube (staples in the most hardcore power-max Cube) and the 'worst'. Examples of the latter that stick out:

Reconnaissance, Whirlpool Whelm, Scattering Stroke, Sharding Sphinx, Pawn of Ulamog, Reaper from the Abyss, Sorin Markov, Remorseless Punishment, Goblin Sharpshooter, Guttersnipe, Mul Daya Channelers, Rakdos, Mina and Denn, Howling Mine, Argentum Armor, Sidisi


All fair points, however I feel a strong need to specifically defend Reconnaissance. It's a pet card of mine, and can provide some great advantages for it's nominal mana cost. It gets exponentially better when paired with something like Geist of Saint Traft, or Alesha, who smiles at death. At minimum, it can make blocking a frustratingly unprofitable endeavor for your opponent.
 
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