General stock cube biases

CML

Contributor
people aren't having as much fun cubing as they ought to be. now as far as tragedies go in MTG this is not a huge one in comparison to "god Theros games are miserable" or "why don't the top players in this massively successful and profitable game, one of the best games of all time, make a motherfucking fucking living wage???" anyway, for the last of these "abstract notions that make riptide cubes sweet" posts, i thought i'd make a short list of design fallacies that ruin the typical outside cube, and enlist the help of y'all in doing so.

not breaking singleton
having 720 cards
including power-9 / power maximization / steep power curve
high mana curve
not enough fixing / control-oriented fixing
the "4c midrange fallacy"
pretending to respect evan erwin and/or max mccall
not cubing enough / inviting lame people over
failure to proxy
poison principle
closet love of bad and thoughtless games
uninteractive mechanics (protection, hexproof)
ignorance of important metrics / autistic attention to meaningless metrics
(these encompass all the previous ones) bad taste / refusal to listen to criticism

MORE
 
Yeah man I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. Power 9 is like the worst shit ever and you wouldn't believe how many times I heard someone over at MTGS spew some stupid shit like "Just include more answers for Power in your cube idiot." Like, wtf could possibly even answer Power? Are they insane? Maybe if your life's motto is #420BlazeItYOLOforLife then Power is a good idea, but any successful game is going to maintain some sane level of balance.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Excessive redundancy in higher casting cost cards. Cubes will include barely enough 1 drops for aggro, so you have to include every one you grab even if they are junk like Jackal Pup. But, when it comes to value creatures, you get tons and tons of choices that can all get slotted in and none of them suck.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
This is related to the poison principle, but I'm not at all of fan of "supporting deck X". If I wanted to play Deck X, I'd play constructed. Cube is a crime of opportunity. It should be a variety of loose themes that can be assembled in a variety of ways, not a bunch of preconstructed decks that you take 30+ minutes to assemble each game so you can pretend that the 3 cards that are different from last time creates the substantive variety needed to justify the activity.
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
This is related to the poison principle, but I'm not at all of fan of "supporting deck X". If I wanted to play Deck X, I'd play constructed. Cube is a crime of opportunity. It should be a variety of loose themes that can be assembled in a variety of ways, not a bunch of preconstructed decks that you take 30+ minutes to assemble each game so you can pretend that the 3 cards that are different from last time creates the substantive variety needed to justify the activity.


This is fantastic. I feel the same, but supporting archetypes makes a good draft format. I don't know how to resolve this.
 

CML

Contributor
Overlapping support and competing demand.


what are you talking about i have no idea why nobody drafted my Varolz / death's shadow / slumbering dragon deck. scrubs

can we add the phrase "card X is good/bad in the cube" to the list


dunno, i think it can be useful for describing cards that don't construe well from constructed, like delver. analogously "people who say card x is good/bad in cube" are bad in cube discussion
 
Great post.

Man do I hate protection. I've actually considered removing every single protection creature from my cube and pretending the mechanic doesn't exist. But I can't bring myself to get rid of the soltari brothers or the original swords. So at present, I have very little in the way of protection, but I still have a few things.

I'd like to add two to your list:
  1. Insisting that the only balanced meta you can build is one built around aggro/midrange/control as three equal theaters
  2. Applying constructed roshambo principles to cube which totally doesn't function that way (in my experience anyway)

I would like to suggest though that running some power can be manageable. I actually really like the original moxen. And if those are the only fast mana you run, I really don't think it completely warps your meta. In fact, it helps to support some cool arch types and play strategies which would otherwise be really clunky (like the upheaval/wildfire style decks). I think where you get into issues is when you can have a mox, black lotus, sol ring and mana vault in your deck. That leads to stupid shit like turn 1 grave titan. But it's impossible to do that with just the 5 moxen unless you lucksack three of them in your packs or something totally unrealistic (and even then, you still can't get a T1 6 drop barring a miraculous draw that includes three moxen and dark ritual.

I will say though, the biggest thing I believe in is that the better cube meta's are ones where card decisions are not being based on raw power. I still don't get why people insist on adding every new powerful card that gets printed - as if adding more power makes the cube better somehow. If wizard's printed a 1CC card that said "you win the game", would it make cube better? It would clearly be the most powerful magic card in history, but I fail to see how it would improve your meta just because it made black lotus look like squire.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Amen.

The Roshambo paradigm has a true root. It is generally true that you will have an advantage in a game of magic if your deck is much faster or a little bit slower. The problem is when people expand that from generally true to true in a specifically tuned environment and attempt to definitively state that those speeds can only be accomplished in a singular fashion.

Maybe the only solution to the roshambo is running every shit one drop that has two power, but then again maybe you don't have to if you aren't running 15+ sources of artifact mana.
 
Amen.

The Roshambo paradigm has a true root. It is generally true that you will have an advantage in a game of magic if your deck is much faster or a little bit slower. The problem is when people expand that from generally true to true in a specifically tuned environment and attempt to definitively state that those speeds can only be accomplished in a singular fashion.

Maybe the only solution to the roshambo is running every shit one drop that has two power, but then again maybe you don't have to if you aren't running 15+ sources of artifact mana.

Rant incoming...

There's a 7000 page thread on MTGS where I futilely argued against the grain on the Roshambo thing. I agree that it isn't a fiction of anyone's imagination. It does exist. There are matchup advantages in this game and they do naturally manifest in the classic aggro > control > midrange > aggro. It's a function of the resource mechanics of this game. But at it's core, it is exactly what you said - an advantage if your deck is much faster or a little bit slower. Really, if you get down to the root of this, it's a pendulum that exists in every single game of magic that is played. One player is always the aggressor and the other player takes the role of the controller (even if they aren't playing a "control" deck). And the match ends up a balance between the aggressor trying to win the game by playing more cards quickly or by putting bigger threats out early versus the control player trying to stall long enough to win the game with unanswerable threats and/or pure CA. It isn't any more complicated than that. Half of every match is figuring out if you should be the aggressor or not. Sometimes it's obvious and other times it isn't. And the best games tend to have you shifting gears as opportunities present themselves.

I generally can talk for hours on this subject, but frankly that marathon thread on MTGS where I was banging my head against a wall for literally days has worn me out a bit. So I'll keep it relatively short (by my standards anyway).

I believe in constructed, you are never going to get away from Roshambo. Because decks are much more consistent and much more focused (because you can run 4 of each card). You can make super fast efficient decks and you can make really slow, ultra powerful control decks with insurmountable CA. And because of that, you will always end up with aggro > control > midrange > aggro. But in cube, you do not have to end up at this level of polarization for two very important reasons:
1. Cube is not constructed and unless you're going out of your way to create tons of redundancy and a draft environment that will produce constructed level consistency, it is impossible to make decks that function on that level. I don't even know why anyone would even want to do this honestly. IMO, constructed magic blows.
2. You can completely control the card pool in such a way that you can make it virtually impossible to draft the extreme types of decks that make Roshambo prevalent. My cube for example is missing a lot of oppressive control finishers. And that has a major impact on how well midrange does. It also allows slower aggro decks to flourish because they can still beat control while being able to run a 5 drop or two to help with the midrange matchup.

My perfect meta is one where the matchup is completely irrelevant, and the winner of every game would be the player that built the best deck (not best as in I'll play control since everyone is midrange - but more I made a really tight synergistic deck and I wrecked face with it) and who made the fewest play mistakes (which necessitates games actually having decisions to be made - a problem I find with un-interactive games where the only real decision that gets made is when the loser scoops). As there is luck involved in this game, that cannot ever truly be true. But I do think you can get close to a meta where each type of deck has a relatively even chance against any other type of deck. Obviously, some decks will have your number just because they play something you are vulnerable too (sweepers being kryptonite to token type strategies, etc.). Maybe this makes for a more homogenized meta (where control is less controlling and aggro is slower on average), but that's a compromise I'm good with personally.

My cube hasn't realized my perfect meta yet, and likely never will. But it's the heart of my design philosophy and what drives my decisions on what cards to run.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
It was the discussion on multiples that drove me insane.

When someone said completely seriously that the desire not to run functionally identical/obsolete cards would "hamstring aggro" I completely flipped my lid because this same person advocates not running multiples WHICH IS THE EXACT SAME THING.
 
It was the discussion on multiples that drove me insane.

When someone said completely seriously that the desire not to run functionally identical/obsolete cards would "hamstring aggro" I completely flipped my lid because this same person advocates not running multiples WHICH IS THE EXACT SAME THING.

Yeah. That makes no sense at all. You'll run Elvish Mystic, Llanowar Elves, and Fyndhorn Elves - all identical cards in everything except name - but suggesting you run 4 gravecrawlers is somehow not acceptable? What? A couple guys were going so far as to say that anyone running multiples wasn't cubing - they were running a custom format entirely so different that calling it a cube would cause confusion. These same guys running three functional copies of Llanowar elves mind you (who would happily run a functional reprint of gravecrawler if it was printed). Hypocrisy at its finest.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Bumping an old thread, I ran into another old chestnut of anti-wisdom today that I've seen in the past that irks me: Only evaluating cards in terms of extreme archetypes and idealized gamestates.

This is the school of thought that says that Jackal Pup is an awesome card, because you need 2 power one drops in aggro vs. control, completely ignoring that the card is bad to useless the rest of the time.

I saw it recently with people evaluating Mogis, God of Slaughter. Much of the feedback was that he was a weaker Sulfuric Vortex, because you could kill a dude to avoid the damage. It could turn into a huge threat, but that was offset by the higher casting cost and lack of a no-lifegain clause. And that's the whole analysis, right?

Except for you know, the fact that Mogis doesn't kill you, right? That two damage vortex deals you is HUGELY RELEVANT in many (most?) matchups, but it doesn't matter in aggro vs control, so I guess we don't have to talk about it? While ideally the deck running Vortex will be attempting to be faster so that the damage doesn't matter, not every hand is perfect even in the best crafted deck. The number of times I've had to hold vortex in my hand because of the damage where another card might have won me the game is very much non-zero. I'm certainly not saying Mogis is a more powerful card then vortex, but pretending that when you maindeck it it will always be against the slow control deck that doesn't care about your life total is silly.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Bumping an old thread, I ran into another old chestnut of anti-wisdom today that I've seen in the past that irks me: Only evaluating cards in terms of extreme archetypes and idealized gamestates.

This is the school of thought that says that Jackal Pup is an awesome card, because you need 2 power one drops in aggro vs. control, completely ignoring that the card is bad to useless the rest of the time.

I saw it recently with people evaluating Mogis, God of Slaughter. Much of the feedback was that he was a weaker Sulfuric Vortex, because you could kill a dude to avoid the damage. It could turn into a huge threat, but that was offset by the higher casting cost and lack of a no-lifegain clause. And that's the whole analysis, right?

Except for you know, the fact that Mogis doesn't kill you, right? That two damage vortex deals you is HUGELY RELEVANT in many (most?) matchups, but it doesn't matter in aggro vs control, so I guess we don't have to talk about it? While ideally the deck running Vortex will be attempting to be faster so that the damage doesn't matter, not every hand is perfect even in the best crafted deck. The number of times I've had to hold vortex in my hand because of the damage where another card might have won me the game is very much non-zero. I'm certainly not saying Mogis is a more powerful card then vortex, but pretending that when you maindeck it it will always be against the slow control deck that doesn't care about your life total is silly.

Mogis is one sided...
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
That's my point. Sulfuric Vortex kills you. Mogis only kills the other guy. So many evaluations of Mogis seemed to exclude the fact that similar cards like Vortex and Ankh of Mishra do damage to you as if you will only ever be playing against decks that you could start the game at 2 life and be totally fine.
 

CML

Contributor
Bumping an old thread, I ran into another old chestnut of anti-wisdom today that I've seen in the past that irks me: Only evaluating cards in terms of extreme archetypes and idealized gamestates.

This is the school of thought that says that Jackal Pup is an awesome card, because you need 2 power one drops in aggro vs. control, completely ignoring that the card is bad to useless the rest of the time.

I saw it recently with people evaluating Mogis, God of Slaughter. Much of the feedback was that he was a weaker Sulfuric Vortex, because you could kill a dude to avoid the damage. It could turn into a huge threat, but that was offset by the higher casting cost and lack of a no-lifegain clause. And that's the whole analysis, right?

Except for you know, the fact that Mogis doesn't kill you, right? That two damage vortex deals you is HUGELY RELEVANT in many (most?) matchups, but it doesn't matter in aggro vs control, so I guess we don't have to talk about it? While ideally the deck running Vortex will be attempting to be faster so that the damage doesn't matter, not every hand is perfect even in the best crafted deck. The number of times I've had to hold vortex in my hand because of the damage where another card might have won me the game is very much non-zero. I'm certainly not saying Mogis is a more powerful card then vortex, but pretending that when you maindeck it it will always be against the slow control deck that doesn't care about your life total is silly.


Hmm, we gave Mogis a try and he sucked (he was just hitting a spirit token every turn or doing 2 when the board state was unfavorable -- in other words he turned out to be the worst nightmare of punisher mechanic stuff), though as this may also have been due to a bad MU vs. "the gravecrawlers," should I try again?

As for Constructed my 2¢ is that a little RPS dynamic is both unavoidable and desirable, though maybe since MTG is too often 'draw-dependent' or 'matchup-dependent' we as designers should try to make the RPS dynamic as small as possible, knowing that it will still exist anyway
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Mogis may well suck, I just am a little confused that the fact that cards he compares with ACTIVELY KILL YOU is apparently completely irrelevant. I'm giving him and Ephara a shot.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Mogis may well suck, I just am a little confused that the fact that cards he compares with ACTIVELY KILL YOU is apparently completely irrelevant. I'm giving him and Ephara a shot.

I'll admit I don't see the vortex parallel, but my idea was: if you ever want him to do 2, he'll eat a dude. If you ever want him to eat a dude, he'll do 2.
That being thought through, do you want a 4 mana sometimes 6/5? Some people do.

Then again though, I'm kinda biased against all the gods. Not a single one has been good for me, even porphy. (But then I cut all the cards that made him playable as just an enchantment like derranged hermit and seige gang commander)
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Well, like Eric said, I probably shouldn't have been reading other people's opinions of cards. It was my mistake and I take full responsibility for my actions. I also think the "punisher" aspect of the card is overstated, particularly since often the situation will often be forced (they have no creature, so they must take 2 is a fairly reasonable occurrence) which is why I am going to try him. 7 power is one hell of a punch in the face too.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Uh, well, Jinxed Idol has been awesome here so I can't really imagine Mogis being bad. Two color devotion is also way way sweeter than one-color devotion.
 
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