Card/Deck Tezzeret (either one) and making them work in cube

[CML]

Two things, I think WO is good in both aggro and Tezz. Second, I think we have a different understanding of fun. I'm not trying to persuade you because fun is subjective. I just want to offer an alternative viewpoint. I am a big believer in having "villains" in my cube. I don't want too much broken stuff, but having a small amount creates opportunities for good stories. I almost always lose to Jitte, but it was really sweet when I used Opposition and Llanowar Elves to eventually beat it one time. Winter Orb is a perfect mini-game card. It's also a lot more difficult to play than Armageddon, Sulfuric Vortex, or other cards aggro uses to seal the game. From what I've seen, most time WO is cast, neither deck can break the symmetry. It requires timing and set-up to be good. Also, I started playing Magic shortly before Legends, and so WO has a some nostalgia for me.




There's often an undercurrent in these conversations of what is "fun" or "good design" that seem pretty subjective for me. For example, I like Batterskull and want artifacts that are good in everything. I don't mind having some broken cards, like Jitte, Swords, and Tezz locking people out of the game. I think Tezz requires so much to come together for him to be good, that if someone manages to draft the deck, kudos. A Tezz deck has yet to 3-0 any cube draft I've participated in, and I've seen a couple 0-3.

i agree with most of this -- after all, this forum was birthed when someone decided typical cubes were in poor taste and that our subjectivity was something both to be recognized but also analyzed, and not used as an excuse to substitute whatever our fetishes are for the elusive moving target of 'good design.'

the best way i can put my own objective is that i think magic at its best is a game about people, and designing a cube to maximize fun not only makes the games a more psychological experience, but is itself also psychological: what's the best way to get my friends and playgroup to have fun? remember that they too are unreliable narrators of their own experiences, just as they can misplay and dissimulate in game. nabokov and kafka novels are all about this kind of creative process.

by maximizing psychology, you can make good players screw up more. decisions should feel and be important. the ideal game of mtg for me is one where each player plays well, maybe not even perfectly, casts haymakers, makes a number of interactive decisions based on the opponent's decisions, etc. and then it all comes down to something very marginal. that way, it has the ebb and flow of a good narrative or sports game or whatever. magic coverage struggles to create that narrative because (a) the sets are not designed that way often enough and (b) because official wotc coverage is full of idiots.

anyway, the experience of modern magic is way too often 'what cards do you have?' and i find this kind of level-zero consideration to dominate casual play, as well as the culture of the game; wizards all but explicitly encourages its customers to have and memorize stuff, instead of using and analyzing it, and so the players begin to be as dull as their cards. when that boring constraint is not eliminated but lessened (after all, sometimes you just get passed and draw the nuts), you get the forms of mtg that I find to be the richest -- competitive constructed, and cube.

 

[Jason Waddell]

There's often an undercurrent in these conversations of what is "fun" or "good design" that seem pretty subjective for me.

Well, the main issue is that these are inherently subjective topics with no right answer. And that's a good thing.

 

[Ryan]

the best way i can put my own objective is that i think magic at its best is a game about people, and designing a cube to maximize fun not only makes the games a more psychological experience, but is itself also psychological: what's the best way to get my friends and playgroup to have fun? remember that they too are unreliable narrators of their own experiences, just as they can misplay and dissimulate in game. nabokov and kafka novels are all about this kind of creative process.

by maximizing psychology, you can make good players screw up more. decisions should feel and be important. the ideal game of mtg for me is one where each player plays well, maybe not even perfectly, casts haymakers, makes a number of interactive decisions based on the opponent's decisions, etc. and then it all comes down to something very marginal. that way, it has the ebb and flow of a good narrative or sports game or whatever. magic coverage struggles to create that narrative because (a) the sets are not designed that way often enough and (b) because official wotc coverage is full of idiots.

anyway, the experience of modern magic is way too often 'what cards do you have?' and i find this kind of level-zero consideration to dominate casual play, as well as the culture of the game; wizards all but explicitly encourages its customers to have and memorize stuff, instead of using and analyzing it, and so the players begin to be as dull as their cards. when that boring constraint is not eliminated but lessened (after all, sometimes you just get passed and draw the nuts), you get the forms of mtg that I find to be the richest -- competitive constructed, and cube.

This is the way I feel too. When playing cube I want it to be an engaging experience for everyone from first time cubers to veteran cubers. I don't want it to leave a sour taste in people's mouth and make them feel as if they wasted their time. Cards like Winter Orb or something like Black Vise have that effect on people. I highly doubt that there's ever been a time in magic where Orb was cast and both players were sitting there thinking "I'm glad that this card is in play." This is not an objection to powerful cards by any means. It's an objection to cards that stop either side from even playing the game. There's a reason that I think Hexproof and True-Name Nemesis are some of the worst things they've ever done. Everybody hated losing to the guy with Invisible Stalker Butcher's Cleaver. I think avoiding cards that create feel bads is one of the most important things to creating a good cube environment. I want first timers/newbies/veterans to think "man that was a ton of fun. I can't wait to do it again." I want them to have a rich and rewarding experience where they get to play with fun/good cards in a fun/good environment. It seems that the word fun has started to correlate to the word bad and that's just not the case. Fun and good aren't mutually exclusive by any means.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

This discussion about "fun" began with what to play with Tezzeret(s), and I think including the lock down cards like Winter Orb is good for that. I don't think my point of view about fun is mutually exclusive with anyone else's; I'd love to draft any of the cubes posted here. I do however, enjoy WO, both playing against it and with it. Not all the time, but I can definitely remember some fun games with WO, and all of them were when it sat across the table. Just like with Swords, there are moments when it feels unfair, it just crushes. It can feel bad to win (or lose) this way, but overall I like having these cards in my cube. I talked about the "villain" reason. There's also nostalgia. I also think that some cards, not necessarily WO, but stuff like the swords, add variance to the cube. I generally only include these broken cards if they are best in aggro, though there are limits (I don't play Black Vise, for example.) I think higher variance environments are friendlier to newer players and more fun for Timmy.

I also appreciate you all and your collective perspective on cube design, which is close to how I'd like the cube I posted here to play out. I joined this forum because I liked what was happening here. I guess as much as I like filet mignon, sometimes I just want a burger. I imagine there's people like me who don't mind the broken stuff, even if it does feel bad sometimes. Ryan, if you try Tezzeret and it sucks, maybe try adding some of the resource denial cards and see if it gets better. It might be unfun and hated by your group, but it might also be cool to see people try to piece the deck together.

 

[Ryan]

I mean I don't have anything against the broken stuff. Like I said I have a combo cube you can check it out here: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/ryans-324-combo-cube.233/. If that thing is not about doing broken stuff then nothing is

My biggest point about Winter Orb is that if you're going to make it work for Tezzeret decks, which are inherently a control deck, you're going to need to include artifact mana which I feel winds up warping the cube. The fact that it can just stop people from playing magic doesn't make for a great experience. Also I just want to make it clear this isn't an attack on you or what you enjoy. I know sometimes things can come across that way on the internet haha.

I would like to take a moment also just to say that Filet Mignon is one of the most overrated cuts of steak there is.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I will say, I had Winter Orb in my cube for a long time and it very often led to super interesting game states. Armageddon too. I don't run either currently, but I can see the arguments.

 

[CML]

I like Geddon and Smokestack and Upheaval and some traditional griefer cards and would not be opposed to giving Winter Orb a try, though I would say that what keeps those cards fun is an aggressive environment, which may make Winter Orb a little much.

I should give the MTGS lists a once-over and see if there are any weird cards like this that completely change the game state, I think this is one area where we might be able to learn a lot from otherwise bad Cubes

edit: as a lover of merfolk i can say that TNN can go fuck itself

 

[anotak]

the thing from the other thread about it being better to be polarizing rather than consistently average comes to mind for me.

feel bads are NOT a good thing to automatically avoid. some feel bads are needed for the good to feel good. as long as the feel bads aren't the most memorable experience a person has with the cube. if you remove all feel-bads all that does is just move the bar for where they are. you can't eat sugary dessert for every meal.


the problem is feel bads that don't have a good aspect that outweighs that. feelbads that can't REALLY be played around. feelbads that are so good that you feel forced to play them.
there's a difference between "i didnt get to play at all" and "i got bodied and it felt bad".

in the genre of fighting games, Capcom tried to remove a lot of the feel-bads from the previous Street Fighter games in Street Fighter 4. an example would be the throws are much weaker so they are much easier to deal. getting thrown to death was the classic SF2 feel bad. But then the feel bad was moved to it being very hard to attack people and actually get damage (i know this isn't true at the current highest level of play w/ all the unblockables and vortexes and whatnot, but it is true at many levels of play and it was pretty true in high level play back in 2009 when the first version came out). this had pretty bad consequences on how the game felt overall. so in effect all it did was move the feel bad to a different feel bad and warped the entire gameplay around it.

games can be overdesigned, as in everything is too thought out and therefore made tame and there is nowhere to explore.

also, if players complain about something, they are always complaining for potentially good reason, but rarely the one they are actually saying.

edit: when your players tell a story about the game they will need a villain.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

If the villian in a game is anything but my opponent or myself, then the game is getting in the way of its purpose.

 

[Ryan]

I should give the MTGS lists a once-over and see if there are any weird cards like this that completely change the game state, I think this is one area where we might be able to learn a lot from otherwise bad Cubes

I'll take decisions CML is going to regret for 1,000 Alex.

 

[Ryan]

Despite having this in a couple of my cubes I always seem to forget about it. This is the kind of mana rock I can get behind

 

[Eric Chan]

I ran that for a while, and was always frustrated by its coming into play tapped, as well as not making coloured mana. Most decks that ran it would've preferred Coldsteel Heart, Everflowing Chalice, or Mind Stone, as the 'manland' activation never really came up.

 

[Ryan]

I'm a fan of it in control decks. It can pressure planeswalkers as well as protect your own. Seems relevant for Tezzerets. I do also like the mana rocks you've listed

 

[CML]

i'm trying Fellwar Stone tomorrow

Ryan i am not going to regret it because i am not going to actually do it

 

[Ryan]

i'm trying Fellwar Stone tomorrow

Ryan i am not going to regret it because i am not going to actually do it

That's probably for the best. One time I was watching Cheon draft MODO cube and he had Fellwar Stone out planned this whole turn around going Armageddon Land Tax go. Cast the Geddon that takes like 5 minutes to figure out why he can't tap his Stone for mana.

 

[Chris Taylor]

the thing from the other thread about it being better to be polarizing rather than consistently average comes to mind for me.

feel bads are NOT a good thing to automatically avoid. some feel bads are needed for the good to feel good. as long as the feel bads aren't the most memorable experience a person has with the cube. if you remove all feel-bads all that does is just move the bar for where they are. you can't eat sugary dessert for every meal.


the problem is feel bads that don't have a good aspect that outweighs that. feelbads that can't REALLY be played around. feelbads that are so good that you feel forced to play them.
there's a difference between "i didnt get to play at all" and "i got bodied and it felt bad".

in the genre of fighting games, Capcom tried to remove a lot of the feel-bads from the previous Street Fighter games in Street Fighter 4. an example would be the throws are much weaker so they are much easier to deal. getting thrown to death was the classic SF2 feel bad. But then the feel bad was moved to it being very hard to attack people and actually get damage (i know this isn't true at the current highest level of play w/ all the unblockables and vortexes and whatnot, but it is true at many levels of play and it was pretty true in high level play back in 2009 when the first version came out). this had pretty bad consequences on how the game felt overall. so in effect all it did was move the feel bad to a different feel bad and warped the entire gameplay around it.

games can be overdesigned, as in everything is too thought out and therefore made tame and there is nowhere to explore.

also, if players complain about something, they are always complaining for potentially good reason, but rarely the one they are actually saying.

edit: when your players tell a story about the game they will need a villain.

I know I'm a little late to the party here but on the winter orb discussion, I seem to be the only one with the stones to cast winter orb in my cube, and I've lost about 50% of the time it's in play (since sometimes they remove your guy and eventually muscle a garruk into play). It's certainly an interesting card, but I think a lot of people just don't find it fun the same way people find armageddon fun (and yes, these people do exist)

It's so interesting to read your posts anotak, since I'm so innocent to the fighting game scene. What is this "bodying"?

 

[anotak]

hahaha

sometimes i say things and i dont think about how people don't have the same context i do. it's just when you beat someone really bad. "originally" it meant to murder someone, as in, turn them into just a dead body. came into fighting games from hip hop, i think.

 

[Chris Taylor]

hahaha

sometimes i say things and i dont think about how people don't have the same context i do. it's just when you beat someone really bad. "originally" it meant to murder someone, as in, turn them into just a dead body. came into fighting games from hip hop, i think.

You learn something new every day
I suppose I prefer it to "raped"

 

[Jonas]

I know I'm a little late to the party here but on the winter orb discussion, I seem to be the only one with the stones to cast winter orb in my cube, and I've lost about 50% of the time it's in play (since sometimes they remove your guy and eventually muscle a garruk into play). It's certainly an interesting card, but I think a lot of people just don't find it fun the same way people find armageddon fun (and yes, these people do exist)

It's so interesting to read your posts anotak, since I'm so innocent to the fighting game scene. What is this "bodying"?

Not the only one, I joyfully slam winter orb down on the table the turn after tangle wire.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I'm just used to being our resident armageddon fanboy

 

[anotak]

You learn something new every day
I suppose I prefer it to "raped"

im not really a fan of that term you mention either

 

[Jason Waddell]

The use of that term was undoubtedly the most abhorrent aspect of MLG culture.

 

[anotak]

The use of that term was undoubtedly the most abhorrent aspect of MLG culture.

it's still used a bit in fighting games but there's a definite movement away from it. i hope the esports world is doing the same

 

[Jason Waddell]

it's still used a bit in fighting games but there's a definite movement away from it. i hope the esports world is doing the same

Well, I know it's not really used (at least nearly as commonly) in the Starcraft 2 scene, so it's use must have surely declined by virtue of the (near) death of the console shooter scene.

Which thread are we in again?

 

[Dom Harvey]

Beyond the obvious Signets etc., you can try:

- Phyrexian mana creatures: Vault Skirge, Spined Thopter, Porcelain Legionnaire, Phyrexian Metamorph, Moltensteel Dragon
- weapons: Whip of Erebos, Bident of Thassa, Hammer of Purphoros, Spear of Heliod, the other one
- coloured substitutes for common effects: Spellbombs, Capsules
- Trading Post (the artifact planeswalker)