Sets [THB] Theros Beyond testing/includes thread

Heymaker

Heymaker

I've been undergoing a bit of a cube refactoring recently, and Abzan has been shifting between +1/+1 and enchantments until I saw the spoilers for THB. Naturally, a few cards caught my eye and got me thinking (similar to Mondschwein's realizations) that Delirium might have a role in my updates, namely:


Which made me dig out some actual delirium cards like Grim Flayer, Inexorable Blob, and Mindwrack Demon as a nudge towards an aggressive {B}{G} archetype, since I’ve been getting a bit stale on the (I feel) easier-to-support, maybe-default, grindy Golgari package. Kinda excited to give that side of Abzan a unique feel. Tymaret Telephones the Dead and Aphemia both trickle into my Esper Zombie/Tokens theme, so great pickups there.

In addition, I’m excited to give the Orzhov end of that Abzan wedge a utility Aura/Enchantment control feel with:


More as 'testing candidates':


Shifting some of the {W}{B} removal toolset towards auras and permanent recursion/flicker/return-to-hand effects (Kor Skyfisher, Shepherd of the Flock, etc.)seems like a clean overlap with the {U}{W} artifact recursion (Auriok Salvagers, Restoration Specialist, and friends) archetype I already have.


Cards that I’m hoping work well in my Grixis discard/flashback decks without being ‘too much’ (perhaps most concerned about Breach):


My BR decks have been operating more on a discard-cards-for-tempo + play-reach-cards-from-the-graveyard axis, so really hoping Underworld Breach can supplement that slant, while also acting as a similiar reach/combo goal for the UR spells-in-graveyard archetype -- I’ll be perfectly honest, Underworld Breach is my favorite card from the set. I’m also hoping White finds ways to abuse the fact that it’s an enchantment in the graveyard or that it’s a permanent that can be bounced before sacrificing. I could also see Temur 'reprogramming' their graveyard with the cards exiled to Escape, to make whole-graveyard shuffle effects feel just a little bit more like deck reprogramming.

This one too, because I love LabMan:


(There are certainly others that I'd like to run but maybe don't represent strong signals I'm looking for, although some I'm going to run regardless: The Birth of Meletis, Dreadful Apathy, Alirios, Enraptured, Agonizing Remorse, Eat to Extinction, Mire Triton, Pharika's Spawn, Underworld Charger, Woe Strider, Anax, Hardened in the Forge, Careless Celebrant, Ox of Agonas, Mantle of the Wolf, Renata, Called to the Hunt, Wolfwillow Haven, Gallia of the Endless Dance, and Slaughter-Priest of Mogis)
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Totally posted this in the wrong thread :eek:

Ok, first test results are in. I did four drafts where I focused on getting THB cards, and played each of the resulting decks multiple times against different opponents. Honestly, my opinion on some of these might still change, because that isn't too big of a sample size, so view these as a first impression!

Too good (for my cube)
Kiora Bests the Sea God was a bit too strong. The problem is not the hexproof 8/8, that's a fair price. The problem is also not the delayed Lay Claim. The problem is the second chapter, there's simply no coming back from Power Word: Sleep, especially not with that 8/8 that can now attack without fear.

Might be too good
The First Iroan Games is crazy powerful. It didn't win me the game every time, and I think the main reason it felt beatable was the complete lack of one cmc mana dorks in my cube. This is extremely scary on t2 on the back off a Llanowar Elves. I do like the mini game it creates though!

Positive in testing (which doesn't mean I'll add it)
Daybreak Chimera is a great variation on Serra Avenger, that actually gets cast on the relevant third turn. Great little common!
The Birth of Meletis felt really pleasant. The decks you want to play this in care about that Plains more than about a random card I feel, and the 2 life rebuys you some of the life lost from that delayed Wall of Omens. Neat little card.
Elspeth Conquers Death is expensive, but powerful removal. It often felt a bit awkward to cast though, and the second chapter is less relevant at that stage in the game than I would have liked. Not bad, but I think I like The Eldest Reborn better in this role.
Alirios, Enraptured was hilarious with Cloudstone Curio, and still excellent without. I don't know what I am going to cut for it, but this feels like a must include for me.
Omen of the Sea was rock solid, but it's a cheap cantrip, so that wasn't unexpected. Instant speed Preordain with Muldrotha, the Gravetide, Alela, Artful Provocateur and Zur the Enchanter synergy might just get there for me.
Aphemia, the Cacaphony was unobtrusive, but I adore all the little synergies she brings. Definitely going to try and make room for her.
Mire Triton was solid. It beats down, fuels your graveyard, and defends like a king because of the deathtouch. Nice little role-player.
Woe Strider was okay, but felt a bit lacking. I am sure I will feel better about it when I get to draft it in the self-mill deck. I did manage a ninjutsu of the goat once, and that felt pretty sweet!
Elspeth's Nightmare pleasantly surprised me. Rock solid removal spell in my cube, that often either 2-for-1's the opponent or forces an awkward play because they don't want to lose that noncreature card in their hand. Loved it, and I am going to see if I can make room for this.
Tymaret Calls the Dead didn't feel too powerful, but it's a nice way to self-mill. It's going to be hard to make room for this, I feel, but it does make for more enchantment / historic synergy. Will have to think on this one.
Anax, Hardened in the Forge was sweet in the aggro deck, and sweet in the Wildfire deck! Wiping the board but starting with four 1/1's vs. your opponent's zero creatures is prety great!
Tectonic Giant is an elemental! I run an elemental theme in Temur! I don't know what the f I'm supposed to cut for it, but something is going to get cut!
Arasta of the Endless Web survives Wildfire! And has reach! This might be a nice card for my cube, but I already run two green 4 drops that can come out with 5 toughness, so I'll have to take a look. I do like the card, feels like just the right power level!
Warbriar Blessing was funny because it could bring creatures out of the 4 damage range in my Wildfire deck. Interesting variation on the fight spells, really, and that lasting toughness can be pretty relevant.
Shadowspear looks like it finally might be an additional equipment piece that isn't either broken stupid or yawn-inducing. Lifelink is strong for sure, but +1/+1 is such a small bonus, and 2 a rather big equip cost, that it definitely felt balanced.

Weak or meh
Taranika, Akroan Veteran felt uninspired. It's just a big bucket of stats, I much prefer the play experience of Pianna, Nomad Captain.
Gravebreaker Lamia was funny in the Muldrotha deck, but ultimately I feel she's a bit too expensive. I'ld have to look really hard for a spot, because it has the barest of synergies in my cube. There's not a lot of casting from the graveyard, but it was really excellent with Muldrotha.
Careless Celebrant felt a bit meh. I thought it could ding the opponent, but it only targets creatures and planeswalkers. That makes it a lot less relevant when your opponent only has one creature, which happens more often than I liked in the red deck.
Purphoros's Intervention is just a big burn spell. It's efficient, but I never wanted to cast the token side of the card, and there's more interesting burn spells out there imo (for example, ones that can target the opponent).
 
Velrun

Velrun

shamizy said:
So far I've got the following cards on my Acquire/Test list:



In blue it's mostly just more support for the UW Blink archetype. Alirios has intrigued me since I first saw it as it's a lot of stats on a decent body and can get really out of hand with any blink shenanigans. It reminds me of that Commander card that made sculptures that couldn't do anything until it died. Conjurer's Closet is too cute in anything aside from EDH, but Thassa comes down a turn earlier and allows you to curve right into it after a 3 drop (like Alirios) and can eventually turn into a beatstick all on her own to close out the game. She's splashy enough to be played in a Bant blink shell and I think she'll be pretty effective as an archetype signpost.

Intervention is just there to be a flexible counterspell/DTT hybrid, nice utility spell to reach a critical mass of effects.



For black the addition of enchantment creatures has made me want to revisit BG Constellation as a potential archetype. Aphemia is playable at its base as a 2/1 flier for 2, but will shine if it can generate 1-2 more bodies. I see it as a dual early threat + late game card as it can re-populate a decimated board if you have enchantments in the graveyard.

Woe Strider does a lot as a sac outlet and brings its goat buddy along to serve as fodder to block and smooth out your draws. I don't like extreme support for something like Aristocrats, but incidental cards like this are perfect since they're good roleplayers elsewhere. I'm interested in seeing how good Escape is in practice.

Nightmare Shepherd looks like another sweet piece for Aristocrat-styled decks, also just seems good in a generic grindy B/x shell full of creatures with ETB effects. The baseline 4/4 flier for 4 is playable on its own and the enchantment typing makes it even more attractive for incidental synergies with stuff like Delirium.

Eat to Extinction is just going to be swapped in for Vraska's Contempt which was a wee bit too efficient for my liking with the lifegain. "Surveil" is a nice ability to have and will be randomly useful in things like a reanimator shell. The art is gross though. Yuck.



More stuff for potential Enchantress/Constellation decks! I really like the Champion as a creature that can curve into bigger enchantments. Much like Beast Whisperer, Eidolon of Blossoms always felt one mana too high up the curve to set up as an engine, but this slots in really nicely with current cards available. Being able to curve into Nightmare Shepherd + something like Doomwake Giant right after could be an absolute beating and grind you through slower matchups.

The introduction of Sagas in the last two years makes me really want to visit Delirium again as now we can more easily get an additional card type into the graveyard. Iroan Games slots well into a GB Delirium, Enchantress, and in my U/G Simic decks with the counter mode. This looks very powerful if you're able to fire off the 2nd and 3rd modes in sequence.



Uro is mostly a replacement for Oko who was a dumb fucking card to play with. The ETB effect is nice and I'm a fan of the reanimation not being so easy to pull off as other big dumb fatties. I don't know how easy it'll actually be to have this Escape in Simic colors, but using it early as a Growth Spiral and then being able to cash in on used up cards in the late game seems like a fine play pattern to me.

I really have high hopes for Shadowspear as far as equipment goes. It's cheap enough to deploy reasonably early, equip cost isn't too high, and it mimics the best parts of Loxodon Hammer which was always way too slow for my environment. I can see this doing good work and staying in my cube for the long haul.
Click to expand...

I wish I could double like this
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Some further results...

Voracious Typhon is not exciting enough to justify cutting other 4 drops over.
Hero of the Games and Hero of the Nyxborn definitely are, in my cube at least. In one game, I had my opponent on 13 when they stabilized. I had one 2/1 flyer left, they only had ground creatures, so they attacked me for a bit without holding any creatures back. On my turn I cast Hero of the Games, targeted it with Reckless Charge, attacked for 10, and had a 3 damage spell for the final 3 points on the following turn. Attacked for 10 out of nowhere! Love the cards, excellent additions to strengthen the Feather, the Redeemed combat tricks deck (which was pretty much the only card that really cared about those). They definitely make Rimrock Knight and Bonds of Faith even sweeter additions to the cube. I am going to try to add the three good heroes (Hero of the Pride being the third one).
Phoenix of Ash is very fine. It escaped a few times, and is just very resilient in general. The only thing I'm worried about is the fire-breathing, which definitely makes it way more dangerous in the long game. I think I would have preferred the card without it.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
TrainmasterGT said:
Is it not exciting as in it's not splashy or is it not exciting as in it's not a good card. Those are two very different things IMO.
Click to expand...
As in not splashy. It looks decent, but I always had cards in hand that I rather cast, because they had more impact. It’s not necessarily bad, and I think it’s a great option for slower/lower power Pauper/Peasant cubes. I also didn’t get to play it in a discard for value / self-mill package, which might contribute to my evaluation. The front side (plain 4/4 for 4) is just nothing to write home about, and getting it in the yard from play is a large ask when all your other plays are more immediately impactful.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Onderzeeboot said:
In one game, I had my opponent on 13 when they stabilized. I had one 2/1 flyer left, they only had ground creatures, so they attacked me for a bit without holding any creatures back. On my turn I cast Hero of the Games, targeted it with Reckless Charge, attacked for 10, and had a 3 damage spell for the final 3 points on the following turn. Attacked for 10 out of nowhere! Love the cards, excellent additions to strengthen the Feather, the Redeemed combat tricks deck (which was pretty much the only card that really cared about those). They definitely make Rimrock Knight and Bonds of Faith even sweeter additions to the cube. I am going to try to add the three good heroes (Hero of the Pride being the third one).
Click to expand...

I am torn between:

1. How does one prepare against that? You only had a 2/1 flyer on the battlefield and could be down to 2 cards in hand. (And I remember you dislike cards that reveal Villain’s hand for information) Imagine being the villain. He must feel seriously cheated because he was so far ahead and suddenly lost to a combination of cards he couldn’t prepare for. Or could he? Maybe he should just learn and accept that Reckless Charge is in the cube.

2. It seems like you have found a very small and cute theme to your Boros section that really gives your cube a strong identity in those colors! I like it.
 
Kirblinx

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Unsure if I post my prerelease experience here or the spoiler thread, but I decided to be my stupid self and splash everything I could in my first prerelease because I could:









The deck got absolutley stomped round 1 against a RW aggressive deck. I forgot that my deck relied way too much on Ilysian Caryatid and it dying to Omen of the Forge both games was not great for me. I managed to claw out the next two rounds to end up 2-1, so it wasn't as terrible as I was expecting. I mainly got there off the back of Hydra's Growth after stabilising the board. It seems like a great way to have inevitability when the opponent has little to no removal.

My second prerelease deck was much more focussed:








Escape seems like a really well-rounded mechanic. Thing like the gorgon help fuel it, but you can't have the game go too long or you might actually deck yourself. All of my rares were great. The Ox was fantastic as a curve topper, giving me extra cards and the Phoenix was my main win condition. Breezed through the first two rounds until I played against a GW constellation deck where I got my sweeper both games, but I could not stop a Stessian Champion from giving him too much value and getting back into the game.

Bonus content of a friendly sealed I did online:
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This deck was absolutely insane and I went 9-0. Only dropping 2 games in the process. Omen of the Hunt is Busted, especially on turn 3 with Trancendant Envoy. Heliod's Pilgrim is great a dork that can either get a pump aura or a removal spell. Heliod makes games very hard to race for the opponent and Elspeth was also fantastic.

But I want to talk about one card in particular:

This card does surprisingly a lot for one would think is just this sets honorary flicker effect but here are some sweet plays I did with this card throughout the 20 games:
  • Flickered my Heliod's Pilgrim to get a second removal spell
  • Flickered my Warbriar Blessing before combat as a make-shift removal spell and to trigger Captivating Unicorn and tap down a flyer I couldn't block
  • Flickered my Banishing Light to remove a more threatening creature that they were trying to suit up with an aura
  • Flicker The Birth of Meletis to get another plains after making the wall to help fix my mana woes (and make another wall)
  • Saved my Pegasus from a Fateful End
  • I flickered my opponent's creature in response to an Iroas's Blessing so it couldn't enchant and remove my creature
  • I flickered my opponents lethal Slaughter-Priest of Mogis after they had sacrificed 3 creatures
That is a lot of sick interactions for one card. If I ever build another white deck I will definitely include 1 of this card as it has so many potential uses.
The only other sick play I had with this deck that I remember was flooding out being on 6 life facing down a 2/3 Heliod's Pilgrim and couldn't draw any creatures to put my Mantle of the Wolf on. So to stem the bleeding I enchanted the Pilgrim with the Mantle, then proceeded to Triumphant Surge the Pilgrim to have their board clean and me left with 2 2/2s. Who knew enchanting your opponents creatures with beneficial aura's could help you win a game?
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Went to a local prerelease and ended up doing pretty well. My pool clearly dictated a base {B/G} deck, but after losing the first round hard to Shadowspear (backed up by a solid {U/B} build with lots of card advantage), I switched to a white splash for double Revoke Existence, which proceeded to be excellent all tournament long! My deck was chock full of removal, and Polukranos, Unchained is, unsurprisingly an absolute bomb in this format. Curving Skola Grovedancer / Aphemia into Nyx Herald was really good, and Entrancing Lyre was bonkers good removal, I have no idea why people left that in their sideboard. I never dropped another match, and ended up 5-1 (same as the guy that beat me in the first round).









 
shamizy

shamizy

Played in just one Prerelease this time, but went pretty well going 3-1 with this sweet Grixis pool:

Grixis Omens










Literally all but one of my wins came from chipping away and then playing Gary to get the devotion drain. Twice I pulled off Minion's Return on Gary and then using the Lampad as a sac outlet to bring it back to drain for the win. Omen of the Dead was extremely clutch for me allowing me to rebuy my win-cons if they were removed or just chain together some Devotion triggers on back to back turns. I felt like I couldn't lose if I resolved Gary on the field with a Lampad out, 1 mana available, and black Omen in hand. It was just ridiculously good.

The one loss I had was to a guy who had a nutty Abzan pool with multiple on color rares + Elspeth and Polukranos. I managed to take a game off him, but Elspeth ended up being way too good in Game 3. Every other game required me to just position myself with devotion, go wide with blockers + goats, and eventually get there in the late game after grinding my opponents of resources.

I also got to play against Dana Fischer, that little girl who plays Elves in Modern, in the 1st round. She ran some GW deck that had a decent amount of bombs and constellation, but it just couldn't grind through my board or beat Gary. Nice kid, very friendly, and she's waaaaaaay smarter than I was at 9 haha. Some quick hits:

  • Both Omens were excellent for me. Black one is a discounted Raise Dead at Instant speed which is so wild while Thassa's is an instant speed preordain for 2 mana. Both were great at helping me grind and fix my draws respectively, and I cracked them multiple times in the late game to draw into my best cards. I don't know if the black one is good enough for my cube, but now I definitely want to find a slot for the blue omen.
  • Atris is such a fun card to play with at a lower power level. The mind games you can pull off just add so much more to the game. I just took the two card pile every time unless I was digging for something specific at that point in the game. What was hilarious is that I'd often deploy it on T5 with 1 black up, opponent would split 2 piles, I'd lose an impact creature to the graveyard, but then I'd just grab it with Black omen at their EOT anyway. Too much value.
  • Woe Strider was as good as advertised, I only Escaped with it in one game to close it out with power on board, but just being able to scry deeper for impact cards was great. Recurring it with omens and buying time with the bodies was also great.
  • Final Flare with Satyrs and Goats is a lot of fun. That's all.
Opened up UG Titan in my prize packs so that was pretty sweet. I forgot just how much fun it was to cast Gary in a 1v1 game of Limited. I'm definitely going to be drafting this set quite a bit.
 
sigh

sigh

Actually played a prerelease! The first I've been to since....

Dominaria? Or was it Kaladesh????

Been a while. Had a bunch of fun with a five color pile that is lost to posterity. First off, Shadowspear is legit. Very strong equipment but still beatable. I think threads that fine power level needle that equipment have to deal with. I didn't actually have one, but playing against one still felt good. I did pull a Calix, and he's certainly a little lower power level thanks to the specificity of his playset, but he has a fun play pattern that at least one of my EDH decks will benefit from. Also played against a Polukranos. Stronk. But I think very fair in a higher-power setting. The fact that you remove counters for all the damage taken makes it a lot better (instead of just one... that would be broken)
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

I also played my first prerelease in ages this weekend, managed to open some of the cards I wanted and ended up going 3-2 with a UW Skies deck. My impression was that the format was a little bomby, as I lost towards one player in a really boring way vs ashiok, nightmare muse (2/3 token on the +1 ability what the hell!?) and hydra's growth (which is a complete removal check or die), but that I otherwise really like everything going on. Fun cards, fun little interactions with the enchantments. Feels like Theros done right.

UW Heliod Skies










My curve was kind of weak, and in hindsight I could've probably afforded to splash black for some better removal (I did have an unknown shores), but Heliod, Sun-Crowned is a really strong card and Dream Trawler helped me claw myself back into almost every game I played it.

Heliod is much better than I thought it was when I sleeved him up, and is actually making me consider running a lifegain subtheme.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Onderzeeboot said:
My first impression of Triumphant Surge was that it's a bit sketchy. How did you like two in the main?
Click to expand...

One of the reasons I ended up 3-2 instead of 4-1 was losing against a dimir flyers deck, that had a lot of smaller evasive creatures that I just couldn't kill, but I was surprised at how much the 3 life matters for Smite the monstrous. It helps mitigate the tempo loss of such an expensive removal spell. I wouldn't probably run it if I didn't have to though, 4 mana a removal spell with a drawback? Agh! I had one of all the common black removal in my sideboard I should've probably just went with those :p

Edit: The lifegain also played nicely with Heliod, which is why I'm now curious on running a lifegain matters theme with Heliod and 1-2 other matters cards and then just incidental lifegain cards.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist



Also, I've convinced myself to try slotting in Dream Trawler as a UW control finisher as it actually did help me stabilize almost all the games that I played it, and also because I get to have this silly flavor combo between revelation and trawler ;)
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Yeah I played prognostic sphinx for a while and basically cut it because scry 3 is a miserable game action to actually take most of the time

All your removal spells turning into a tap spell (that also stops them from drawing a card and gaining 5) is much much easier of a pill to swallow than them just rotting in your hand
 
Heymaker

Heymaker

This was the first time I played in 4 events in one weekend, and the truth is, I thought this was a great format! Lots of great synergies and little interactions. None of the color combinations stood out as unplayable, but green's common pool did feel the strongest to me and escape seemed to be a powerful mechanic as the game dragged on. With that said, I did remember to take pictures of some of my decks and have enough of a memory for the others:

Thassa Tribal







Decided last minute to do a midnight prerelease before doing a few the next day with friends. I had no idea what this format was going to play like but was familiar with the cards and likely standouts going into it. Ended up 4-0'ing with this deck, largely off the back of solid removal and plentiful looting/card selection to get me through to more business spells than my opponent. Thryx, the Sudden Storm and Storm's Wrath were the clear standouts in the deck, with Omen of the Forge and Incendiary Oracle playing much better than they may look on the surface. I think a lot of the gods aren't great includes for sealed decks, because their abilities can feel very mediocre for what your getting if they sit there as just an enchantment (which is a vast majority of the time, especially when short on playables in that god's color). Fun deck to play though, even if I didn't get to play the spells-on-opponent's-turn variant of {U}{R}.

Gruul Smash? Gruul Smash!









This deck was sick (also 4-0'd with it). Curving out creatures and playing a card like Iroas's Blessing or Mantle of the Wolf just forces scoops a lot of the time. Throw into the mix that Return to Nature and Mystic Repeal fit into the curve so well and have plenty of targets, putting your opponent on the backfoot insanely fast. Klothys's Design was probably the most questionable card in the deck, but I was able to get at least a +3/+3 out of it when casting, which wiped a few of the opponents creatures, but didn't always just seal the game on its own. I boarded in Wrap in Flames a few times instead, but never drew it. Probably goes without saying, but Klothys, God of Destiny is disgusting and I always apologized for playing it.

Aura Borealis







**the decklist is as good as I can muster from memory
This was a 2HG deck that was basically my attempt at forcing as much synergy as I could from the Esper cards I had available. We went 2-1, after losing our first match to a sad, sad Thassa, Deep-Dwelling + Alirios, Enraptured value train. This deck was a ton of fun to play once the game got going, and something I'd like to see supported by the {W}{B}{G} wedge in my cube. My favorite play was casting Rise to Glory, getting back Heliod's Pilgrim and Aspect of Lamprey, putting the Aspect on my Protean Thaumaturge, triggering it to copy my teammates Tectonic Giant, and then swinging in with both to deal 12 direct damage off of the triggers (EACH opponent) and gaining 9 from lifelink. Protean Thaumaturge is such a cool card and great design with the flash enchantments in the set.

HECTOR!!!








I played in one more event since I won a free event entry from the first 4-0. The decks game plan? Race my opponent. I got one victory off of a Wrap in Flames targeting two of my 'heroes', which is probably the extent of the deck's interactions. Haktos won me several games by himself. I could see the deck being much more interesting to play in draft with more copies of the heroes. Ultimately, I went 2-1 before dropping to go meet some friends at a brewery.

Ultimately, I walked away with some memorable games, most of the cards I wanted for cube, and interested to see how the draft format plays out!

Fun recollection: Number of instances where my opponent didn't realize Omen of the Sun also gained them two life...

7
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

It should be ok if there's enough enchantments, right? I think I'd be extra interested in running it in an environment where many of the more powerful creatures are enchantment creatures, because then the second mode has a higher chance of hitting the problematic creature directly.
 
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