General The Draft Exchange

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Drafted Onder's Cube again. I really like your format, and I think its a really good example of tasteful customs, as there isn't such a density of them to overwhelm the drafting experience. I also really like some of the thematic directions (counters!) and multi-color cards are always fun, especially when the focus is on some of the sweet tri-color cards we don't get to really experience. Energy is a great mechanic, and counters overlaps naturally with it. Thats a pretty nice wedge/shard structure to play with.

But I do think the mana base is an issue, and hurts the overall experience. This is a lot of the same issues I was running into with the min/max experiment until I finally swallowed my pride and went up to 13% fixing. 50 at 450 is 11%, and thats assuming that someone is willing to treat a three color card as a modal fixing pick (which I found hard to remember). 11% fixing density was giving me a lot of inconsistency in the draft experience, and that was with a focus on two color decks.

Last draft I didn't have lands to enable a splash, and than this draft...

Four color good stuff from CubeTutor.com












Pack 1, there was no fixing, and my picks lead me to a G/W deck, than pack 2, there was fixing, but it was all U/R fixing, so I started to panic and pivot over, than in pack 3 there was tons of fixing, which I gobbled up (but GW fixing only later in the pack).

The draft ended up feeling like I was assembling a sealed pool, and than I was just good stuffing a deck together during the build period. In this case, the draft wasn't a particularly interactive experience (and oddly enough, the last one wasn't very interactive either for different reasons, as the limited fixing put me on rails drafting G/W which happens to be mostly counter focused cards).

You can really see the indecision in the 4 drop picks, where I clearly had no idea what was going on, and was taking speculative picks on the basis that I was going to have to pivot on a dime in pack 3 depending on what fixing I saw. In the spot I was in, the fixing was putting me in a position where I was essentially having to restart the draft every pack, and of course, that nullifies wheel cards, creating more of a sealed deck or grid experience, where I am grabbing first or second picks.

To expand on that, when you get up to the 4 slot or bigger, you tend to have a lot of independently good cards, while in the 1-3cc slot, there is more of a clustering of low power synergy cards (this incidentally is why Daghatar the Adamant is going to have a hard time slotting into a deck) meant to serve as enablers. When you're having to pivot around the draft, cards that have dismal floors (like aethertorch renegade or visionary augmenter) can't really be considerations, since those strategies require a fairly early color focus to obtain mechanical density (and will prob be picked up on the wheel).

You can run lower land percentages, but you'll pay a price in draft consistency, and that seems especially unfortunate in a format intending to enable sweet 3 color combinations and synergistic decks.

As an aside, Metallurgic Summonings also seems fairly absurd. I'm not really sure how you beat a resolved copy of it. Its probably the best card in the format by a mile.
 
Drafted the Min/Max experiment! The elusive UG deck seemed to materialize fairly readily for me. Started with a Wolfir Silverheart, followed by Saprolling Burst. Think I pivoted into Blue with Master Biomancer. The red splash is very good-stuffy on my part, but this is what the format is trying to be, so ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯. Think the gameplan leans a little on sticking one of the midrange 4 drops, and then Silverhearting them to death, which makes chord good.

UG tempo from CubeTutor.com










 
Getting back to GiftsForgiven here: Started off with Gilded Lotus and Solemn Simulacrum, leaving myself open to any kind of deck I want, as long as I want a big mana deck. (I do.) A Balance later and we're trying to go broken. Deck came out pretty odd, and it's probably a trainwreck but that's my fault for being very, very greedy.

4c Stuff from CubeTutor.com











Moving along to sigh's cube: Started off with Karmic Guide into my choice of Traverse the Ulvenwald or Sphinx's Revelation. I went for the spicy pick in Traverse. Here's where we ended up:

Bant Company from CubeTutor.com











I like the deck and it seems like a good home for Brago, Collected Company, and Birthing Pod while also supporting a small, tight delirium theme. When I took the Karmic Guide I anticipated making some kind of Lark combo deck, but this is a really interesting deck.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
But I do think the mana base is an issue, and hurts the overall experience. This is a lot of the same issues I was running into with the min/max experiment until I finally swallowed my pride and went up to 13% fixing. 50 at 450 is 11%, and thats assuming that someone is willing to treat a three color card as a modal fixing pick (which I found hard to remember). 11% fixing density was giving me a lot of inconsistency in the draft experience, and that was with a focus on two color decks.

You can run lower land percentages, but you'll pay a price in draft consistency, and that seems especially unfortunate in a format intending to enable sweet 3 color combinations and synergistic decks.
I know :( I was at 13% in early iterations of my cube, and got multiple complaints that there was too many fixing in the cube. That's half of the reason for tying trilands to the three-color cards (the other being that without adequate fixing they are unplayable, which often leaves them un(der)drafted). I think I cut the manlands (while fun to play with, they are pretty boring, safe picks during the draft, and they can be annoying to play against) without replacing them with something else though, so maybe I should put 5 back in. I could also go up to 3 three color cards, which would be a stealth 1% increase to fixing, though none of the Naya cards make me really happy...

Edit: Wait, we're forgetting the 5 Borderposts, I did replace the manlands with something! They're easy to miss though :) Anyway, that's 55/450 or just over 12%. That still leaves the increase to 3 three-color cards, but what cards are we even adding?

To expand on that, when you get up to the 4 slot or bigger, you tend to have a lot of independently good cards, while in the 1-3cc slot, there is more of a clustering of low power synergy cards (this incidentally is why Daghatar the Adamant is going to have a hard time slotting into a deck) meant to serve as enablers. When you're having to pivot around the draft, cards that have dismal floors (like aethertorch renegade or visionary augmenter) can't really be considerations, since those strategies require a fairly early color focus to obtain mechanical density (and will prob be picked up on the wheel).
Yeah, you might have a point there. Maybe I should scale back a bit on the pure good stuff. I mean, Sharding Sphinx can be pretty powerful, but it's also right on theme. Restoration Angel, however, is pure good stuff that isn't really necessary. I'll have a look!

As an aside, Metallurgic Summonings also seems fairly absurd. I'm not really sure how you beat a resolved copy of it. Its probably the best card in the format by a mile.
Maybe, but it is a five drop that does nothing the turn you play it, the tokens don't have evasion, and it's hard to assemble a never-ending string of instants and sorceries.
 
Drafted StormEntity's Alfonzo's cube on accident! First pick was Time Warp, and from there I had a plan, a vision. And it worked out! Got the taking turns deck laid out pretty well, and have some ways to (more) unfairly leverage the turns, especially tradewind rider + eternal witness + 1 more creature + 8 mana = infinite turns..... :D

Let's do the time warp again from CubeTutor.com










 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Did anyone ever try just replacing all the fixing in their cube with <Land of choice>?
Ie: Fetchland of choice, Shockland of choice, etc

I havent thought about it a lot, but one of the "Eh, I'll get around to it" issues I have with cube is when you draft a sub 100% amount of the cube, and all your signals scream green white, yet all of the green white fixing isn't in the draft
 
Now I drafted StormEntity's cube! First picked... Doomed Necromancer, I think? Worked myself into a decentry UB reanimator deck. Except one thing... no on color bombs! Legitimately don't know if this was my fault or how the draft played out. Soooo, Borborygmos it is! I mean, He's a pretty great reanimator target, so I'm not complaining too, too much. Feel like there will be more value reanimation than is healthy for what the format wants (it wants more cheaty)

Uncastable fatty reanimator 101 from CubeTutor.com










 
Getting back to GiftsForgiven here: Started off with Gilded Lotus and Solemn Simulacrum, leaving myself open to any kind of deck I want, as long as I want a big mana deck. (I do.) A Balance later and we're trying to go broken. Deck came out pretty odd, and it's probably a trainwreck but that's my fault for being very, very greedy.

4c Stuff from CubeTutor.com










This deck seems to live and die by it's big plays, but you did managed to draft both balance, greater gargadon, and a bunch of planeswalkers. Live by the topdecks, die by the topdecks. I honestly don't hate it :p

Edit: plus, you know. Mana drain. I think this deck will do nothing a percentage of the time. The other, you'll be king.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I know :( I was at 13% in early iterations of my cube, and got multiple complaints that there was too many fixing in the cube. That's half of the reason for tying trilands to the three-color cards (the other being that without adequate fixing they are unplayable, which often leaves them un(der)drafted). I think I cut the manlands (while fun to play with, they are pretty boring, safe picks during the draft, and they can be annoying to play against) without replacing them with something else though, so maybe I should put 5 back in. I could also go up to 3 three color cards, which would be a stealth 1% increase to fixing, though none of the Naya cards make me really happy...

Edit: Wait, we're forgetting the 5 Borderposts, I did replace the manlands with something! They're easy to miss though :) Anyway, that's 55/450 or just over 12%. That still leaves the increase to 3 three-color cards, but what cards are we even adding?

I really like the boarder posts design, but they have that problem of only provide fixing for certain guild pairs, and I'm also not sure they are really high picks in terms of fixing sources, in this format. Any feedback down the line would be really good!

Thats really great that you listen to the individual feedback of your drafters, even on things really fundamental to the format. I think this is the guy whose been playing since ice age, and only runs 14 land decks no matter what? Its great your drafters feel comfortable exerting that level of influence. The guy is doing something that sounds unbelievably silly, and you should be commended on not making him feel bad. Thats always a tough situation.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I really like the boarder posts design, but they have that problem of only provide fixing for certain guild pairs, and I'm also not sure they are really high picks in terms of fixing sources, in this format. Any feedback down the line would be really good!

Thats really great that you listen to the individual feedback of your drafters, even on things really fundamental to the format. I think this is the guy whose been playing since ice age, and only runs 14 land decks no matter what? Its great your drafters feel comfortable exerting that level of influence. The guy is doing something that sounds unbelievably silly, and you should be commended on not making him feel bad. Thats always a tough situation.
Haha, you remembered that guy?! Funnily enough, he was not one of the drafters who complained. Anyway, I'm going to see If I can add another three-color card to each shard. That's probably going to involve more customs though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Haha, you remembered that guy?! Funnily enough, he was not one of the drafters who complained. Anyway, I'm going to see If I can add another three-color card to each shard. That's probably going to involve more customs though.


You know I had completely forgotten you run a 450 format for some reason: thats all thats going on, its not that the format ever had "too many lands," thats just a visual illusion created by the way some of the packs will come together at that size.

Assuming that you have 8 drafters (the effect becomes more extreme the less drafters you have...and I suspect you are occasionally drafting with less than 8?), thats a random 90 card subtraction, every time you draft. This occasionally causes packs to feel weighted oddly, and you end up with drafts that feel disproportionately "land heavy" compared to others, or drafts that feel fixing flooded. We would have that happen occasionally, and people would note that they got a "land heavy pack" or "this draft has all the fixing" etc.

It just never occurred to me though that a second group of drafters might interpret those results to feed their own confirmation bias of "too many lands in the cube."

You guys just had a couple drafts like that due to format size and (probably) player totals, and that worked together to create the myth of Onder's too many lands cube.

Sorry to harp on this, but its interesting, and it made no logical sense before. To achieve 13% fixing at 450, we're talking 58 mana fixing lands; you're running really circa 10% fixing, which puts you at circa 45 fixing lands. This is a 3% in the card pop, or a 13 card difference, and shouldn't even really be detectable in the draft: i.e. its difficult to imagine how running 3% more fixing could actually cause someone to feel their draft was land flooded, unless there was some other phenomenon going on: like confirmation bias triggered by occasionally land heavy drafts due to the naturally fluctuating percentages of the card population.

It also made no sense that they would stop complaining about total fixing density when you artificially up the fixers via things like boarderposts: we're now running close to the same fixing total we were when people initially complained (closing that gap with generally worse, non-land fixers). Of course this magically doesn't illicit any response, because they are eyeballing a pack and not seeing the occasional heavy weighting of lands that gave rise to the myth in the first place. Because it now can't visually confirm to their bias, it becomes invisible, even though if they were consistently applying the logic of their original complaint, they should be up in arms.

Things make so much more sense now.
 
This is likely the reason that I've experienced the same inconsistent commentING in my own environment.

With 54 fixers in 405, there still is a theoretial maximum of 54 in 360, which is 15%, definitely high. On the flipside, I could potentially get 45 of the fixers cut, leaving 9/360, or a dismal 2.5% lol. One of the downsides to a slightly inflated pool, and one of the rea sons I've switched to tenchester drafting for my usually-smaller groups.

Definitely one reason that market research needs to be tempered with other forms of analysis.

Edit: and my absolute maximum based on drafting history would be 54/180, however unlikely, which gives us a whopping 30%!! Now, shuffling techniques can drop this ceiling, but it's still eye opening (to me).
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
You know I had completely forgotten you run a 450 format for some reason: thats all thats going on, its not that the format ever had "too many lands," thats just a visual illusion created by the way some of the packs will come together at that size.

...

Because it now can't visually confirm to their bias, it becomes invisible, even though if they were consistently applying the logic of their original complaint, they should be up in arms.

Things make so much more sense now.
:D It's silly maybe, but if it works, it works! I've been thinking of ways to make my boosters feel less land-heavy for a while now, because it is a concern that I would like to adress, but I don't want my players to be unable to play their cards. Fixing is a very important part of cube drafts, even more so in an environment with a lot of gold cards. I really like the free triland with three color cards rule, as it not only achieves this goal, but also makes sure people always get the right fixing to splash their three color card, making those cards eminently more drafteable.

The borderposts are a recent addition, but in testing they've been really nice, since they double (triple?) as artifact support, ramp support and prowess support!

All in all I've been able to cut 20 lands from my land section this way (since I am going to add a third three color card to each section), which means that, on average, there'll be 20*(360/450)/(3*8)=2/3 less lands per pack. So that's down from 2 lands per pack on average to just 1 1/3. I think that's a noticeable difference actually!

Edit: There's actually another important reason for the "too many lands" illusion. Experienced players know lands are important, and will often snap pick adequate fixing once they already have a skeleton of a deck. These players would hardly complain about seeing lands. Now imagine an inexperienced group that undervalues fixing. What would they pick given the choice, an exciting real card or a dull land? In there mind the land does nothing. The consequence is that lands will wheel much more often in an inexperienced group, reinforcing the image of packs with too many lands!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Drafted Sigh's cube:

Booster.jpg

First picked the Soul Swallower because I was curious if I could make delirium work. Second picked an Ohran Viper, then third picked a Grapple with the Past. Nice! Then never saw another delirium card again. Turns out there's hardly a delirium card in the cube, which surprises me, since Soul Swallower is hardly the biggest pay-off for that keyword. Anyway, I got a bit grumpy because I wasn't seeing any delirium after such a beautiful start, then I got really grumpy when I spotted a Mirran Crusader in a wheeled pack. I'm just going to ruin someone's draft because (s)he happens to be {B/G} through no fault of her own. Honetly, I loathe permanent protection from colors, permanent protection from two colors is even worse! Anyway, mainly picked up good stuff in open colors and ended up with a non-synergistic {G/W} deck that doesn't look particularly interesting but will probably win its fair share of games because it runs powerful cards. Sorry Sigh for not feeling it! :oops:

Onderzeeboot's draft of Sigh, A Cube on 28/11/2016 from CubeTutor.com









 
Hey, no hard feeling for the draft not ending up where you wanted to see it! That's my bad, if anything. You drafted GW basically to the extent where I expect it to end up, as kinda the "good stuff" color pair. Haven't turned my gaze as closely to that pairing yet, so I've been happy just letting it run as a color pair that is easier for beginners to work with. For now. Maybe it's time to start honing in a little?

Imma let you in on a little secret: Miran crusader is still in by the grace of it being signed. Yep. I'm a slave to "cool and unique". If you wanna send me a signed Fabled Hero, we're good to go :p

I think Soul Swallower is a little underrated, being a gigantic threat very quickly, if you can reliably reach Delirium. And it conforms to the "fewer ETBs" philosophy. I'm trying it out at least. Interesting though about your frustration on Delirium. Guess I haven't counted in a while, but maybe my delirium count is very low... I'm using more as a compact tool than as an all out theme (drafting trap?), and I think it worked in your deck? You have a very tight selection of cards that can get you there fairly readily for your Swallower. If you had picked up the Traverse, that would have been sweet.

If I was to add to the theme, Ishkanah is an obvious candidate. But I like Spider spawning soooo much! :( Should I just swallow my tears? I can also put Topplegeist back in, would have been great for this deck. Any others?

Thanks for the draft! Sorry it made you grumpy. Definitely want to try and avoid that, if at all possible.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Hey, no hard feeling for the draft not ending up where you wanted to see it! That's my bad, if anything. You drafted GW basically to the extent where I expect it to end up, as kinda the "good stuff" color pair. Haven't turned my gaze as closely to that pairing yet, so I've been happy just letting it run as a color pair that is easier for beginners to work with. For now. Maybe it's time to start honing in a little?
Ah, that explains. I'm a deckbuilder at heart, but a lot of the card are indeed simply "good stuff", autoincludes if you will. That leaves only a marginal amount of cards to tweak with. I do delirium is a possibility for the Soul Swallower, though I would have loved it if I had picked up some sorceries.

Imma let you in on a little secret: Miran crusader is still in by the grace of it being signed. Yep. I'm a slave to "cool and unique". If you wanna send me a signed Fabled Hero, we're good to go :p
You put signatures before gameplay? I call shenanigans! :eek:

I think Soul Swallower is a little underrated, being a gigantic threat very quickly, if you can reliably reach Delirium. And it conforms to the "fewer ETBs" philosophy. I'm trying it out at least. Interesting though about your frustration on Delirium. Guess I haven't counted in a while, but maybe my delirium count is very low... I'm using more as a compact tool than as an all out theme (drafting trap?), and I think it worked in your deck? You have a very tight selection of cards that can get you there fairly readily for your Swallower. If you had picked up the Traverse, that would have been sweet.

If I was to add to the theme, Ishkanah is an obvious candidate. But I like Spider spawning soooo much! :( Should I just swallow my tears? I can also put Topplegeist back in, would have been great for this deck. Any others?
Extricator of Sin is great fun, especially if you run some aura-based removal, and Descend upon the Sinful is pretty decent as well. If you're going deep, Desperate Sentry is a 4/2 for {2}{W} that makes a 3/2 when it dies. That's pretty insane if you can reliably turn it on. Kindly Stranger is a non-etb Nekrataal, Mindwrack Demon feeds the graveyard and is a nice evasive beatstick. Tooth Collector is fantastic if you've got enough 1-toughness creatures in your cube! I think you only missed Obsessive Skinner in green. It's a simple bear on turn 2, but it slowly gets out of hand in the late game. And of course there's Grim Flayer, expensive to acquire, but a pretty good two drop in {B/G}.

Thanks for the draft! Sorry it made you grumpy. Definitely want to try and avoid that, if at all possible.
No sweat! If I'ld had known {G/W} was the "good stuff" "beginner" color, I would have gone with Prophetic Bolt p1p1, which would undoubtedly have led me down a much more satisfying path. I can't remember getting grumpy doing your cube before, so I was a bit surprised to be honest :)
 
Drafted Onder's cube, ended up in one of my favorite archetypes (currently writing a in-depth archetype primer for it like I mentioned the other day, stay tuned!):

BW Aggro from CubeTutor.com










I began with a P1P1 Ayli looking into a more lifegain-y or aggressive BW build. I was rewarded by seeing a Bloodsoaked Champion not long afterwards along with Blood Artist and the Zulaport Cutthroat. At that point, I knew exactly which deck I wanted to draft and I was able to assemble it. I wish I had seen the second Champion of the Parish which would have given me the perfect one drop suite, but I suppose you can't have it all. There are the right amount of early drops that I wanted though I may have a few too many cards in the 4 drop slot. I usually prefer to go 16 lands with my aggressive decks but I feel like that would have been a bad idea here. I really wanted another removal spell or two, but I think I'll be able to get there with the plethora of 4s that I've got and the various life-drain effects and evasive creatures. For a grindier match where I can maximize Ayli's exile ability, I can bring in Reveillark and Ranger of Eos from the sideboard to keep me fueled up with threats.

After seeing the various Orzhov cards with Extort, I think a card that would make this deck and other lifegain/drain decks very enticing would be Karlov of the Ghost Council. I have no idea of the density of the incidental lifegain you have all throughout the cube, maybe he'd be overpowered, but I just found him to be a really fun card when I cubed with him months back and recently brought him back. This was a sweet deck, I'd definitely love to play it irl.

FYI to anyone that drafts my cube: If there's a lack of on-color fixing that comes your way, it's not due to a lack of them in the cube, but because I value fixing highly and I think that the draft AI has been conditioned to do so at this point. I've noticed this more recently when I've drafted on Cubetutor where I can't play 4C goodstuff as easily due to a lack of fixing unless I prioritize it.
 
Drafted Shamizy's cube, starting off with a Collected Company, one of the cards that can lure me out of my blue deck shell. Here's where I ended up:

Good Company from CubeTutor.com











I like this deck a lot and want to play it. The mana's pretty greedy, but I reason that Birthing Pod or Collected Company can find me sources if I get creative enough and having access to the blue cards to Pod or Company up is powerful enough to be worthwhile.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Drafted StormEntity's cube!

Booster.jpg

Pick one I decided to go with Vengevine. I don't know that it's the best card, but I run or have ran most of the other cards in one of my cubes, but not Vengevine! I'm always curious where new cards will lead me (even though I know, in this case, that it's a well-loved card).

Pretty soon I picked up a Life from the Loam, then a Smokestack (nice!), and then the booster after the Smokestack I saw Braids and LftL number two o_O I decided to go with the second LtfL because I had seen some lands matter cards, and then Braids, Cabal Minion wheeled! YAY! During the draft I got a bit lost in a madness theme in {B/G}. I've kept most of the discard outlets and all of the madness cards in the sideboard, but Fauna Shaman and Pack Rat are pretty good in the maindeck, and there's enough stuff to put in the graveyard!

Also, yes, I got the two cycling lands, and I wheeled a Drownyard Temple to go along with my Smokestack/Braids soft lock! :D And Crop Rotation can search for one of them :)

Onderzeeboot's BG draft of Cube Eternal on 28/11/2016 from CubeTutor.com












This looks like a puzzle I would like to play (and hopefully solve) during a draft night. Love it!
 
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