The Penny Pincher Cube 2.0--Inventors' Fair

Chriskool

Chriskool

Note: It looks like ZNR isn't uploaded yet to whatever our forum plug-in uses... I will have to take a look at the format of this post later to see if it displays correctly :(

PP2: Inventor's Fair V2020

My initial approach is in the spoiler tags, and I'm leaving it in progress as it's too ambitious at the moment. It is probably is leaning more toward PPv3 territory than PPv2.1.

With Zendikar Rising adding MDFCs and completely turning the available bounce-land-based synergies on their hand, a full update to Penny Pincher seems more complex than previously assumed. My full approach is as follows:

Goals:
-Remove under-performers (and assumed given the feedback provided) identified in this thread
-Decrease GRBS and cards that support them
-Update mana-fixing with new toys (thriving lands from Jumpstart, tri-cyclers from Ikoria, misc. other)
-Remove all tribal support (besides golems) to avoid setting incorrect expectations
-Decrease number of unique tokens created by cards to lessen information when analyzing board states
-Integrate MDFC cards from Zendikar Rising to (1) add to bounce-land synergies, (2) increase spell density of decks and (3) add more tension during drafting
-Integrate adventure cards from Throne of Eldraine to increase spell density, specifically combat tricks, while
-Update color triad/pair archetype focus (and update signpost cards accordingly)

Color triad/pair archetypes:

GWB: Sacrifice Combo (Melira Pod)
GWR: Ramp-Aggro (Fires of Yavimaya)
GWU: Midrange Blink
UGR: Ramp-Control
BRG: Graveyard-fueled Attriton (RecSur)
RBU: Tempo Midrange (Grixis Delver with a higher curve)
RWU: Aggressive Artifact decks (Vehicles Aggro in Kaladesh Standard)
UWB: Reanimator Control (Solar Flare)
RWB: Sacrifice Aggro/Midrange (Aristocrats)
BUG: Self-mill/Library Depletion Themes (Spider Spawning / Golgari-Guild limited decks)

RB: Madness
RG: Berserkers//Haste
RU: Burn Tempo// Burn Control
RW: Artifact Aggro//Horizontal Aggro
UG: Ophidian Tempo//Ramp
BW: Attrition Midrange
UB: Flash Control
UW: ...Flyers ?
GB: Reanimator
GW: ++ Counters//Reanimator

Observations In-Depth (continuation from prior, to be continued):
Black
-has too many 5cmc threats (9 if Gruesome Menagerie and 2 ninjas are included)

Cards possibly to remove:


Cards possibly to add:

With the above being said, an update encompassing all of the prior looks to be in magnitude of 15-25% of the total card population. I didn't foresee this when making my first comment, and it feels like too much without understanding the current environment. To limit the chaos, a maximum of 45 cards will be changed in the first update (11 of which are lands). The updates will focus on:

-updating lands
-updating multicolored cards
-removing Kirblinx-identified cards
-removing tribal support
-adding a small selection of MDFCs and Adventures (1-2 each color)

The proposed cuts are:



Cut because they Kirblinx said to cut them: Steam Augury, Magnivore, Cogworker's Puzzleknot, Leave/Chance, Valorous Stance, Citywide Bust, Careful Study, Nimbus Naiad, Undead Alchemist, Aeon Chronicler, Dark Bargain, Onward/Victory, Foundry of the Consuls

Cut because they are tribal: Thalia's Lieutenant; Liliana's Mastery; Krenko, Mob Boss; Necromancer's Covenant

The rest of the cuts are due to lessening the amount of different tokens (e.g., Maverisk Thopterist), removing some hard-to-answer cards that take over the board (e.g., Masticore, Goblin Trenches) and removing cards that will have similarly included MDFCs/Adventure cards.

The proposed inclusions are:


-Modal Dual-Faced Cards (MDFCs): The inclusions are somewhat arbitrary, but in general, I wanted to focus more on utility/situational spells.
-Adventure Creatures: Added creatures that would be impactful bodies even if they didn't "go on an adventure". This, combined with the MDFC inclusion, is to increase the utility/situational spell count without spells mostly residing in sideboards.
-Scrabbling Claws and Soul-Guide Lantern: Some cogs that add graveyard interaction.
-Doom Foretold: Another Braids, Cabal Minion-like card to strengthen black-white's attrition focus.
-Azra Oddsmaker: An interesting madness-enabler.
-Eladamri's Call: Gives green-white some flexibility to assemble creature-based synergies.
-Path of Mettle: There are quite a few haste/double strike/first strike/vigilance creatures in red and white, and in my experience, the quest flip lands are fun for drafters.
-Beacon Bolt: Blue-red doesn't have a ton of great instant or sorcery spell-payoffs... could see something else here.
-Thundering Djinn: Another take on the Masticore-like control wincon, but more fragile and requires some work to take out larger creatures.
-Species Gorger: Green-blue creature-based build-around.
-Ancestral Blade and Mask of Immolation: Bridging between equipment and creatures.
-Emry, Lurker of the Loch: Self-mill and artifact synergies. A sort of second Auriok Salvagers.
-Carrion Grub: Self-mill replacement in mono-black.
-Surly Badgersaur: Possibly madness/cycling-payoff creature. I am unsure if the base stats are too low, but this one interests me a lot! (I'm a sucker for some of these Commander-product-only cards.)
-Elvish Reclaimer: I am not a fan of the forest/plains clause on Knight of the Reliquary. This maintains the effect and opens it up to other green decks.
-Selesnya Eulogist: Graveyard interaction with a pay-off for self-mill; I'd be dishonest if I didn't mention how excited I am at the thought of populating an Eternalize/Embalmed creature...

For the smaller update, does anything seem out of place? Are any of the cards being removed seem too important?
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

I added Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny to the possible cuts due to the record-keeping involved (although, I am a fan of how the cards play). Could easily see keeping them due to their contributions. Though, Figure was a "red" card for the sake of swaps.

Also, an update may make sense as an increase in the size of the cube to 450 or 540 rather than just a big set of swaps RE: v3. Something to consider moving forward (especially as MTGO-featured cubes are at least 540).
 
Kirblinx

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Chris: MTGO Academy said:
I added Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny to the possible cuts due to the record-keeping involved (although, I am a fan of how the cards play). Could easily see keeping them due to their contributions. Though, Figure was a "red" card for the sake of swaps.

Also, an update may make sense as an increase in the size of the cube to 450 or 540 rather than just a big set of swaps RE: v3. Something to consider moving forward (especially as MTGO-featured cubes are at least 540).
Click to expand...


I think I like the attempt to make it a bigger size cube if you are doing such a large sweeping update. Otherwise it may feel like too much of a change.

I like all of the land swaps, I think they were a given. I think you are going in the direction Grillo was after with each card giving plenty of options with the addition of all these land/spells and adventure cards.

This gives every card 2 modes and a lot more options available at any given time in a draft. The amount of cards added though makes it feel like we are trying to make the whole cube go in that direction, which I know this cube is trying to make games feel like you have a chance at any point in the game, but it is just possibly too many options that we are changing.

If I don't post this now I will never post it, as I can't really seem to get the point in my head across. I hope that that blurb gets across what I am thinking about the changes, which some are needed but not this many with so many options.
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

I've rewritten this post 3 times since Kirblinx's comment; it shouldn't be so hard to converse on one's hobby! :)

Penny Pincher (PP) 2.0: Inventor's Fair is pretty wild as far as cubes go. Looking on the list now, it has a lot more in common with an expert-plus-level set like Double Masters or Modern Horizons than a traditional MTGO "Format" (Vintage, Modern, etc.) Cube. And looking at Grillo's last updates, October 2018 had quite a few (~20) changes. My inference is that there is still "work" to be done at the size 360-cards.

To set the stage for any current updates, there is a lot of guidance from Grillo's posts (and assumptions to be made). I've a big thanks to him and everyone for all of the hours spent thinking and typing about cubes. There is so much cube content on Riptide that I cannot even consume it all with my current time allocation!

Grillo's Cubetutor Description said:
To those of you new to the format, this is a fair, midrange focused, bounceland powered format, with an emphasis on artifacts and graveyard interactions--think 2006 Ravnica-TSP meets triple Innistrad, but with a touch of Mirrodin for smoothing, a dash of powerful ramp from the bounces, and a seasoning of color shifting to keep things extra spicy and graveyard focused.
Click to expand...

Grillo_Parlante said:
We want strong big mana effects that can end the game, but not ones that end the game immediatly for no work, and are difficult to interact with.

Its a tricky line to ride.
Click to expand...

Grillo_Parlante said:
This is probably a better mental sketch for the meta atm:
RBU: Discard/Sifting/Looting powered decks
RWU: Aggressive Artifact decks
UWB: Esper Zombie decks
RWB: Hard Control
BUG: Library Depletion Themes

RB: madness
RG: Berserkers//Horizontal Aggro
RU: Burn Tempo// Burn Control
RW: Artifact Aggro//Horizontal Aggro
UG: Ophidian Tempo//Ramp
BW: Zombies
UB: Hard Control//Tempo
UW: Flyers
GB: Reanimator
GW: ++ Counters//Reanimator

Defining and communicating archetypes is always hard. I have my initial vision, but drafters will run away with that, and figuring out what patterns are consistent and prevelent enough to rise to the level of an true archetype, versus what is fringe, is not easy, and sometimes they may switch.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to muse which inclusions would fit Grillo's vision and which are just my own biases when it comes to the tools that have been printed since Grillo's 2018 (Guilds of Ravnica) updates. I hear the concern that adding adventures, MFDCs and more preference-based swaps endanger the core vision of PP 2.0. As Kirblinx much more experience playing the cube than I do, I will start with changing only* the underperforming cards listed, the 5 Visions "Karoo" lands, the 5 "Vivid" lands and a few cards that care about non-Golem creature types.

The cuts proposed are 28 in number (but only 18 if you discount the land swaps, which should somewhat be negligible beyond the Triome addition):


Kirblinx said:
Cards I find to be lackluster or just mediocre:
Click to expand...

The following are non-Golem tribal that are not included in Kirblinx's above list:


Masticore is reserved list and, IMO, most likely GRBS as it was in 1999. Both feel against the cube's spirit.

The lands to be swapped are:

Additions proposed are as follows:


Giant Killer - modal, situational removal spell (in both modes); some amount of Adventure mechanic seems well-placed to cater to the longevity of aggressive strategy plays
Luminarch Aspirant - Thalia's Lieutenant replacement; goes wide or tall depending on needs
Ancestral Blade - Cogworker's Puzzleknot replacement
Shepherd of the Flock - Leave // Chance replacement
Mythos of Snapdax - situational mass removal that encourages splashing
Ghostly Pilferer - Discard outlet; aggressive blue "looting"; some anti-graveyard without being too brutal
Neutralize - A slight bump for pure control
Ethereal Forager - Aeon Chronicler replacement; source of card advantage (but requires effort)
Clear the Mind - "Baron" card that can be used against other graveyard-based strategies if needed
Cling to Dust - Anti-graveyard but also graveyard synergy
Rank Officer - Liliana's Mastery replacement; 4cmc swap as black is very low on 4s; discard/graveyard synergies
Rimrock Knight - Onward // Victory replacement
Goblin War Party - scaling Hordeling Outburst plus Goblin Bushwhacker
Spellgorger Weird - 3cmc swap as red is very low on 3s
Experimental Overload - pushes spells-matter theme of blue-red for mid-to-late game with a faux ETB creature, can combine with other "Baron" cards to prolong Graveyard looping
Doom Foretold - pairs with Braids, Cabal Minion and plays into attrition white-black
Scrabbling Claws - Cog / Anti-graveyard
Lesser Masticore - a tamer replacement for Masticore. I could see argument for Molten-Tail Masticore as the ping is a big mana investment.

*I am having a hard time reconciling playing the Urza's Destiny Masticore in a high-synergy cube; I may be scarred from playing Standard when it was legal, but the card single-handedly obsoleted decks that were attempting to assembling a meaningful cast of creatures *AND* was pretty difficult to deal with.
 
C

cdammr

These are really interesting updates Chris! You've scratched an itch of mine as well. I've been playing Grillo's final iteration of PP2.0 since GRN was added.... but as each new set comes out, I'm left wondering what to add or change.

I'm far from confident as a cube builder enough to mess with what feels like such a well-oiled 360, but what I am curious about is adding an "expansion pack" of 90 or so cards to bring it up to 450, and possibly even 540 in the future.

The initial thoughts I had about new card types that support existing themes, both meta and color pairing, echoed yours as well: decreased variance with MDFCs from ZNR, more utility out of Adventure cards, more graveyard interaction with THB, more cycling/tribal support with IKO, MH1 and M20/M21.

My gut intuition on how to expand on this is to classify all the existing cards in to the 2/3 color archetype descriptions, determine the ratio of total cards that fit within each, and extrapolate those ratio percentages to the 90 card addition package; i.e. 5% of the cube has Cycling synergy, therefore the 90 card addition should have 4-5 cards that work in cycling.

Open to thoughts and suggestions on this! I will post a reply when I take a stab at it :)
 
C

cdammr

Ok! So many months ago I talked about adding a 90 card "expansion pack" to this cube to take it from 360 -> 450 and introduce a little more variability while maintaining the existing distribution of themes. There's actually 94 cards here, I need to make a couple more cuts.

Definitely used @Chriskool's revisions as a starting point, and made some edits to that as well. I tried to push the golem tribal theme, cycling theme and the -1/-1 counters theme a little bit, as well as naya land destruction for some interesting options.

Love adding in a MDFC land in each color for a little smoother draws, and the uncommon Kaldheim lands were kind of a "fuck it let's try it" option to introduce some low-impact land-based effects.

Open to thoughts/comments/questions, and I may come back to this because I'm quite sure MH2 will spoil some new cards that are better fits than what I've got in here now.

 
Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo

Pretty solid, well done. From first quick glance, I think Lorehold Command and Precursor Golem stand out as probably a bit too over the power curve/too easy to get value from them. Wonder about blowfly infestation being worth it, but overall good job.
 
C

cdammr

@Alfonzo Bonzo @japahn Thanks! This is helpful, as I probably wouldn't have noticed either one going off too much right away.

The KLD lands seem to be a fit at first glance, but I'm wondering about Axgard; there's very little equipment in the cube as it is, and auras are sort of prominent in white but mostly in blue and black (bestow).
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Been thinking on expansion from 360 to 450 or even 540 now that Modern Horizons 2 is out. I imagine these additions would take the cube more toward a Masters-/Horizons-level Limited draft and play experience (as singleton would be maintained); not sure this is a big departure from the design goals (beyond effects being available in lesser densities).

I'm eyeing @cdammr 's expansion list for a lot of possible inclusions (as well as bringing back some of the tribal-related cuts).

For future thought:

Addition of more minor themes (some "mini-game"):
* Venture into the dungeon
* Lesson/Learn (if rummaging on the Learn cards looks playable AND the chances of drafting a lesson+learn are palatable)
* Party (Zendikar Rising cards - Rogue / Cleric / Wizard / Warrior / Changeling?)
* Return of tribal synergies (+Changelings?)
* Treasure-based splashing or artifact synergies (Ixalan & Forgotten Realms)

Homogenizing interaction (lesson learn from grid designs):
* Attempt to have similar instant-speed effects for all colors (lessen board state complexity)
* Attempt to have similar conditional (lessen play decision complexity)

More mana-restrictive spells (lesson learned from grid and limited designs): 2+-color-pip cards are harder to splash and reward drafters for picking more lands for 2-color decks or to weight a 2-color deck more heavily in a single color. I admit this is mostly one my preferences for deck construction. {R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}{R}

More conditional tutors: give players utility & more chances at archetype linchpins.

More utility lands and mana fixing lands: accommodate increase to larger population.

Lastly, there may be some consideration for double-faced cards... I suppose I would print out sheets for both sides as drafting aids if anything more than Pathway lands were included. As stated/alluded to earlier, the Zendikar Rising/Kaldheim/Strixhaven MDFCs are so sweet (and I am tempted).

I will review the results, but my instinctive reaction from the forum triangle/rectangle draft was that the synergies in this cube are not in the forefront of drafters' pick logic. This update approach may be to lean into supporting first basic limited heuristics (for pauper-/peasant-power-level cubes) and second the unique interactions present in the cube.
 
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O

ossa

I'm building a variant of this cube here:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/salsashark

The cube will have it's first outing at the unoffical cube side event at MagicCon Amsterdam, details here:

https://discord.gg/akCyR6Hk

I ran the Penny Pincher 1.0 for a few years without changes, following Grillo's guidance and it was great. Want to update it to PP2.0 if only for the novelty. Started with @japahn 's copy: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/inventors-fair (n.b. this copy is missing Approach of the Second Sun if anyone else is having trouble).

I don't want to toy with it too much without playing it, only initial cuts will be the Vivids. I'm expanding boosters from 15 to 16 cards to give 5+24 slots to play with, mostly based on the updates by @Chriskool and @cdammr.

Additions:


Just waiting for the last dozen or so cards to be delivered to finish v1.0 and maybe do a little pruning before getting it on the table.
 
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japahn

japahn

ossa said:
I ran the Penny Pincher 1.0 for a few years without changes, following Grillo's guidance and it was great. Want to update it to PP2.0 if only for the novelty. Started with @japahn 's copy: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/inventors-fair (n.b. this copy is missing Approach of the Second Sun if anyone else is having trouble).
Click to expand...
Weird, I did add it in the initial version according to the history, but the history is also broken, so I see Cube Cobra hasn't been solid lately, huh.

Thanks for the heads up! I added Approach of the Second Sun back.
 
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