The Penny Pincher Cube 2.0--Inventors' Fair

Thanks for uploading the videos, I really enjoyed watching them.

Aston's deck was great, and I loved the lieutenant recursion, along with the outlast guy, it was great to watch.

Watching salvaging station was great too, even if a little painful on modo.

Got a new appreciation for glint hawk as well.
 
Playing with the deck I was very impressed with Oversold Cemetery, has anyone had experience with it in a higher powered environment? I've had Genesis in my list for ages but it's a bit slow, I was thinking this might work as a replacement.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
He had fun. It was a nice casual, social experience for him. Afterwards he was asking if we would be drafting once a month, and sounded excited. If there had been competitive brackets and shit talking, maybe he would have had a bad time, but you guys were all great. MTGO went smoother than I thought for him.

I'm hoping to make this a monthly thing. I was trying for every two weeks but I think that is asking too much from the community.

Everyone playing seemed to have a great time and there have been, what, 3 comments on how they enjoyed the videos? That is what I was really aiming for. I think trying to ask people to prepare a month in advance is a bit much too, as plans can change in that length of time. I will announce another draft next week sometime. Warn me if there are any changes you are thinking of so I can implement them ;)

Edit: Actually, thinking about different cubes some more and one week I might try and run the Bonzo cube (if that is alright with Alfonzo) as there isn't that many cards different, so the cost shouldn't be much of a burden.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
After this weekend, cut



For



In a format with this much ramp, and a focus on longer games, invoke has been pretty obnixious. It just ends otherwise interesting games on the spot, and was doing that again this weekend.

Steam Augury is a card I've been wanting to try for a while, and its defect seems like an interesting perk in the context of a format where we are trying to shift CA to the yard, and less on OP blue draw affects.
 
Epiphany for x=5 is pretty solid, and this is a 2 mana discount. Plausible include at the very least.

Also neat to have a "suite" of this sort of effect. (with drownyard)
 
I find that surprising. How do you feel about ribbons in cut // ribbons?

I understand that it's more telegraphed and there is the potential to shuffle it back into the opponent's deck with a few cards. I'd be curious how much that actually comes up.

From the outside looking in, Invoke just strikes me as such an underwhelming card.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ribbons hasn't been obnoxious yet, and that mostly seems to be because of the {B}{B} cost and it needing to be cast from the yard. You really have to run base red for it to be worthwhile, and everytime I see someone splash for the ribbons end, it ends up awkard. Plus you can interact with it in the yard as well as on casting, and you can see the play coming from 10 miles away. So its been fine for now.

Any fireball affect performs in relation to the amount of mana a format allows to be ramped and the format's speed. This is a slower format, and invoke is in a ramp color already, and can easily be splashed into a RUG big mana deck. Once you hit the mid-late game, invoke starts to warp the game around itself with each passing turn, in a way that even approach of the second sun can't do.

And thats how it feels in a lot of matchups: like they have a copy of second sun that only has to be resolved once to win.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
We want strong big mana effects that can end the game, but not ones that end the game immediatly for no work, and are difficult to interact with.

Its a tricky line to ride.
 
Not a draft report, but I had fun at least. I feel like I could've committed more to the labman plan but I'm happy winning two matches out of five. Somnophore was definitely the MVP against Durdle_Master, tapping down Krenko in two games before he could get out of control. And that giant Lorescale Coatl against Grillo followed by an actual labman win was fun too.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
This is a very cool list and I’m going to build it. That is all.

This is probably the safest list to build out of all here at riptide. I have also made a copy of this cube and my players haven't said a bad word about it. You can also alter the foundation to whatever suits your playgroup best. I dislike the Karoo cycle in this cube. None of my players picked them as they just felt so underwheming compared to the other lands in the cube. I changed them to some spicy rares for each colour that I have enjoyed over the years that I thought would fit the environment well, which they have.

Just don't think of a cube like a constructed deck, you don't have to have all the same cards to make it optimal, just work with what you have and make changes to what you enjoy. This is the real cube experience.
 
Yeah, makes sense. As Maro says, I want to understand magic before I take it apart and so I probably want to give Grillo’s creation some thorough playing before seasoning to taste.

That said, out of curiousity, which cards did you end up replacing the karoo cycle with?


In other news, I have an order out for the cards I need and they are on their way! :D Luckily I already have Life from the Loam and a bunch more so it ended up being pretty reasonable. I’m pretty excited to try it out. I have created Innistrad and Rise of the Eldrazi draft simulation cubes which were a lot of fun. I’ve played the MODO cubes now and then, which are neat but don’t really feel like something I want to invest too much time exploring. Haven’t seen anything else, though, until I encountered this place.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Cutting the Karoos are fine. The only reason they are there is because there is nothing else that really fits in thematically with the cube, and those are the closests picks. They see play here, but kirb's playgroup's response is 100% reasonable, and understandable.

The important takeaways from the format are the way wedge and shard identies turn into guild identities to create structure, while the idea behind individual card choices are to be flexible enough to move around the cube without hurting anyone if misplaced, but still having enough of the right amount of narrowness to fit into a theme.

That and you can explore different power levels, making solid formats off the back of careful design, by understanding the psychology. No need to play someone elses game of relying on overpriced single collecting to compensate. If you understand what makes a game fun, you can replicate that, using already printed magic cards (taking the manufacturing strain off of you), at whatever price point you want.
 
What's your approach to analyzing wedge/shard/guild structures? Spreadsheets? Top down, bottom up? Sweet pie charts? What are some fundamental architectural approaches to building something with distinct wedge/shard/guild identities?

How do you determine that a w/s/g could use a boost? How do you determine whether a card is working well or poorly? Do you select new cards by seeing a neat card and then trying to make it fit, or by seeing a gap in the cube and trying to fill it? Or both? Basically, do you have a systemic approach to swapping a card?

Sorry for all the questions, but if you're willing, I'd like to know a bit more about your process for making changes.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Shift the focus to how players experience reality, rather than persuing some kind of objective reality. Whatever perspecive you adopt for a card/cube/wedge/shard/deck/guild there are numerious other perspectives that players can apply to it. If you go to different communities, they might have a set perspective on an object, but understand this is a product of that community, and that community's collective experiences, biases, etc inform it. It may (and in many cases probably won't) translate over authentically to your drafters. This is why Jason can run 6 branstorms and its the greatest thing ever, while I run it and my drafters just scratch their head. Its why I can run Karoos and my playgroup drafts them, while Kirb's group just has them float to oblivion. No one is objectively right or wrong here--we aren't measuring plate tectonics--its just that you're in a very interpretation based realm, which is what makes the game fun in the first place.

But now everything can be anything, and anything can be everything, its total chaos, and you've fallen into a postmodern existential problem. Grillo you're a jerk :(

Well, this is where we bring in the wedges, shards, and guilds. From this complete jumble and mess, we want to pull some element out that we can hold above everything else. Something that shimmers and shines for the drafter (something first pickable). This gives us a hierachy, and now we can have some consistency, some form, some structure to keep everything from being an unreleatable mess. Its our drafters that will ultimately determine what these are, but we can guess, and we can lay out a framework, about how we think our playgroup will experience reality.

Thankfully we have some guideposts here, and as the designer we kind of know our drafters. Its a magic community and you have a magic playgroup, we even have several different forums where people talk about cards endlessly, and how they feel about them. You have your own memories about formats, decks, and cards, and how people reacted to those. We want to tap into that. Most importantly you have your friends, and that relationship, so you can kind of guess what they will like or not like, and you always have that resource to tap to keep you from going to far out into something no one can relate to, or which will be dull.

For example, we kind of know, that when someone looks at red card combinations, they are going to be biased towards aggressive archetypes to some degree. This is just because of the way magic formats have been made for the past decades. So when we lay out a blue print for our Red based shard/wedge/guilds, we can kind of anticipate that this is going to happen. So we can pull that characteristic out and use it as a standard to at least partially figure out what kind of cards should be populating red (and by extension suggest what should be in the other colors).

When you can identify what people are predisposed to expect from each color or pair, that rapidly reduces the design complexity down to something manageable. Having that relationship with your drafters, learning their expections, their biases, and how they view individual cards, is priceless, because thats the lens for how they will interpret your format, good or bad. Meet them where they're at, now where you think they should be, and just talking with them is the easiest way to do that.

The hardest thing about cube design is the infinite options, and the infinite ways cards can fit together. The guild/shard/wedge design is first there as a tool to help you manage that complexity, and also second to help the drafter manage complexity during the draft (they have the same potential problem with fresh packs if there is nothing to direct their gaze--you don't want people sitting there staring at the pack likeits made of white noise).

The way that this was dealt with traditionally is designers would just pull out power max, and set that as the sacred thing at the top of the pyramid. And thats fine, and better than nothing. It fits in with the consumer bias that they've been conditioned to after years of playing this game. However, its also one dimensional, expensive, limits what you can do, and can only ever make one thing. Power max can be self-defeating, however, as it demands you run more and more powerful cards, which means you end up replacing weaker cards that the drafter still has an emotional attachement to (or it warps the way those cards play in an unsatisfactory manner). Its that spot of the familiar that you can tap into, and have greater liason to be creative. Even if you're doing something radical, there should be something familiar they can latch onto, to direct the draft.

Literally, all that I do is write out the shards/wedges/guilds, and try to come up with two viable decks (decks with sufficent density of cards from the print pool). If you go through that exercise, its hard, and its unlikely you'll complete it on the first, but thats also fine. The important thing is that you're reducing the complexity down to something mangable, and now you can start populating those colors in cube tutor, with cards and interactions that you have reason to believe will be well recieved, based on your memory, and what you know about your drafters. Every iteration of the cube, you gain a better understanding of what your drafters are being drawn to, what the cube wants, and how you can better make tweaks to facilitate those patterns.

Than from there its just trial and error, and talking with your playgroup. In a small group, it can take 6 months to properly evaluate the performance of a cube, but thats fine, as long as people are having fun (which they should---WOTC already did the really heavy lifting with the mechanics and card design, you're just moving the furniture around). Like most things, it dosen't come fast or easy, and if you want something, you have to put the work in, and experience the ups and downs and stick with it.

So thats a hard post to read, but there you go. Its an ontological problem at the end of the day. Looking at it from the lens of guilds/shards/wedges is the most sensible way to think of it, given how many magic players already do that, with the emphasis on the guilds. For better or for worse thats how they experience the game, I think.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
That said, out of curiousity, which cards did you end up replacing the karoo cycle with?

I posted it over on my cube blog, but to save you clicking a link here was what I added:

They were just some spice I had lying around. Half were from a previous iteration of Grillo's cube as well. I just really like ink-eyes, what can I say.
Thankfully we have some guideposts here, and as the designer we kind of know our drafters. Its a magic community and you have a magic playgroup, we even have several different forums where people talk about cards endlessly, and how they feel about them. You have your own memories about formats, decks, and cards, and how people reacted to those. We want to tap into that. Most importantly you have your friends, and that relationship, so you can kind of guess what they will like or not like, and you always have that resource to tap to keep you from going to far out into something no one can relate to, or which will be dull.
I was halfway across the country visiting my sister at the start of the year and there was an LGS doing a cube draft and I thought it would be great to draft a cube that wasn't mine for a change. When we were doing setup there was only me and one other who hadn't drafted it before and his first question was 'What kind of archetypes are there?'.

I feel this is a question you need to be able to answer as a cube designer/owner to give a straight answer here to be able to give the player something to latch onto. People crave familiarity, so if they hear GW enchantress or UB control, then they can flashback to a time where they have played those kind of decks before (in limited or constructed) and know the cards that work well in those decks to have a pick order in their head and a vague idea of what they might see.

If you don't have an answer, or you lie, things may end up a trainwreck where no one is happy with their decks as they tried to go down a path that didn't exist and just feels disappointed in their deck. You always want people to be wowing over packs and agonizing over cuts to the final deck not dreading every game they are about to play.

I never used to think archetypes were that useful, just having goodstuff should be able to make vague archetypes anyway right? While this is somewhat true, it always makes you feel like your deck is always just that little bit 'not there', but you don't want them to be drafting the same deck everytime though, so you want a lot of overlap so things swap around every draft or so. Just build this cube and you'll find out yourself through time :)
 
Are these still the basic archetypes?

RB: Hellbent//madness//sacrifice
RG: lands // Berserkers//Horizontal Aggro
RU: Spells Tempo
RW: Artifacts//Tiny Control//Horizontal Aggro
UG: Ophidian Tempo
GB: Reanimator
GW: ++ Counters//Humans//Reanimator
BW: Zombies
UB: Ninjas//Zombies Control//Reanimator
UW: Flyers//Golem Control
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This is probably a better mental sketch for the meta atm:

RBU: Discard/Sifting/Looting powered decks
RWU: Aggressive Artifact decks
UWB: Esper Zombie decks
RWB: Hard Control
BUG: Library Depletion Themes

RB: madness
RG: Berserkers//Horizontal Aggro
RU: Burn Tempo// Burn Control
RW: Artifact Aggro//Horizontal Aggro
UG: Ophidian Tempo//Ramp
BW: Zombies
UB: Hard Control//Tempo
UW: Flyers
GB: Reanimator
GW: ++ Counters//Reanimator

Defining and communicating archetypes is always hard. I have my initial vision, but drafters will run away with that, and figuring out what patterns are consistent and prevelent enough to rise to the level of an true archetype, versus what is fringe, is not easy, and sometimes they may switch.

UW, for example, has been pretty consistently flyers, but sometimes you'll have sub themes pop up, and come and go. Golems is a deck that comes and goes, sometimes you'll get artifact based decks, other times hard control. The constant though right now is they tend to be very tempoy, with a minority of decks that are hard control. It feels like 90% of those decks though want to distort time and attack in, though they might go about it in a variety of ways.

But hey, maybe next month people start going heavy into control, and the meta shifts that way. I might have a 6 month period where no one is drafting tempo in UW, and than it swings back the other way. I don't think thats going to happen though.

GB can also get pretty wild. Last time we drafted , we had a baron deck that was looping loaming shaman with dread return to go infinte and grind people down. Dude had no idea what baron was, but just kind of stumbled across that interaction (which wasn't even on my radar when I was thinking about baron in the cube). On a base level, they tend to be reanimation focused, but the well can go pretty deep from there, in ways I find very hard to anticipate.

I'm also forgetting something about BW and GW, but thats probably good enough for now.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
With all of the bouncelands, this card would be pretty cool:


Not sure where it would fit though

Just take out the Karoo's and replace it with 5 copies of this :p

But seriously, just take out any colourless land ie:



The bottom 2 have worked quite well for me, so I think one of the top 3 may be worth trading out for. All just personal preference though.
 
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