The Penny Pincher Cube (360)

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Other question was origins changes. Normally I'm super curmudgeonly with adding new cards, and this was no exception. However, I was prompted to actually look over the visual spoiler, and saw lots of cool cards. I am only adding like 3, but am buying a ton of sweet looking commons and uncommons for when I inevitably break down and realize they would be good cards to run.




Of these pia and kira go in for beetleback chief, because I very badly want decent af sac. outlets. Acolyte goes in for guttersnipe, because I like how acolyte plays better than guttersnipe (but we will see). foundry goes in for phyrexia's core, because foundry has perfect synergy with the cube, and core is a very low pick. magmatic insight goes in for faithless looting, because its much better at that same role.

I also made the following cuts

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I just cannot resist grand arbiter anymore, this cube looks so perfect for him.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm pretty sure it is. Having two artifact flyers turns on metal craft for rusted relic, and almost turns it on for the other af cards. It also provides two bodies to sacrifice to pia and kiran.

I think I am going to cut threaten and try thopter engineer: I just like that card.
 
Is it just me or is Pia and Kirin quite a notch above the rest of the cube in powerlevel? I felt like Beetleback was a solid pick and the upgrade looks super strong.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah i slotted it in, and it feels pretty nuts in the draft, in the sense that its just pure power; might be better to go back to chief. /sigh was really looking forward to a decent sac outlet.

I also dropped act of treason for enthralling victor: want to try a more reasonable version of zealous conscriptd.
 
Yeah that's really sad, I am tempted to create a custom version of it with a lower powerlevel. What if the tokens couldnt fly?
Enthralling Victor I can dig!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I had a few custom card ideas bouncing around my head. I'm not sure how a lower powered siege-gang commander/pia and kiran would look, but I'm attracted to a few designs (excuse the lame names):

Goblin Repairman
{R}{1}
goblin
pay {R}{2} and sac an artifact, deal 2 damage to target creature or player
2/2

Goblin Reveler
{R}
Goblin
Sacrifice a creature: target creature you control gets +1 +1 until end of turn
1/1

Electric Burst
{R}{R}{1}{1}
Instant
Electric Burst deals 3 damage to each creature.

Smithereen Strike
{R}{2}
Sorcery
Choose one
* deal three damage to target creature or player
* destroy target artifact

Gadget Thief
{U}{2}
human
When gadget thief ETBs gain control of target artifact. If its tapped, untap it.
2/2

Purity Thopter
{W}{1}
artifact construct
flash, flying
When purity thopter ETBs destroy target artifact or enchantment
1/1
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, I'm really just looking for attractive ways to do AF/enchantment destruction.

I really like that redux of it, as it adds a lot more play to it. I kind of wanted to go with an ETB though, because that way it could work with blink effects, but at least this version can be unearthed. One of my big problems with kor sanctifiers is that the kill clause is triggered by kicker, which really encumbers an already narrow card. There is a lot more upside though I think with that design.

That would actually be kind of a fun cycle of cards to do. I suppose the blue one could bounce, the red one shock, the green one (/sigh on flavor it would be lifegain?), and the black one mindrot.

Maybe that blue theft effect would be better as a ninja?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I had seen master thief but wasn't sure if the death clause would make it unplayable? Thoughts?

Ah mirage...so many quirky cards I don't remember at all. Pirates looks interesting, not sure what to think about it. The ability to threaten to steal artifacts is interesting, but it does little for decks that actually want to answer an artifact asap. Maybe too easy to play around? Really would be cool to see prowess on a card like that though.

Few other cards for me to keep in mind:




Might be approaching enough artifact density where I could finally run shrapnel blast? Really excited at having all of these cards to again artifically increase the artifact count in the cube.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So...steal artifact goes into the cube...no one drafts it, starting to doubt the veracity of my drafters >.>

I P1P1 temur sabertooth...and not sure. Here is the deck, which I really liked, and which felt like a tron deck.


4 color not-tron











What I mean by it feeling like a tron deck, was that its play pattern was to generate an obscene amount of mana, and to leverage that mana in crushing bursts. You aren't really ramping into things, as much as you are fueling big plays to strong-arm an opponent. Instead of assembling tron lands to do this, it assemble bouncelands and land untappers. It had more of a fair controlling feel to it, than the more assertive R/G tron builds you find in modern, or some of the more focused pauper RUG tron builds.

I also don't think this was an optimal build. I kind of got knocked around the draft a little bit, but I think this would have been much better had I gotten more of a RUG build; controlling the game with red cards, filtering with blue, and generating mana with green. Also, of course, cloud of faeries or an actual ramp target would have been nice. Lumberknot was also terrible, and it would have been really nice to have an extra land here. Color screw was a constant worry when playing, and a big role of the land untap effects was just to color fix for me. I think a number of my opponents just did not grasp fully what the land untappers were going to do to them, and were not aggressive enough in killing them. Thats not entirely unreasonable (though still unreasonable) because of how many bouncelands i'm running (logic is that if i'm a ramp deck this dosen't shut down my plays) but seeing as my strategy is to consistantly generate 16-17 mana in a turn and go nuts with mana sinks, its pretty bad.

But there were a lot of really sweet interactions. Muddle the mixture was awesome as a tutor, grabing starstorm, rolling thunder, fertile ground, voyaging satyr, deprive, and nameless inversion. All of the land untappers were great, with magus of the candelabra and krosan restorer being mana generating monsters. One of the sweetest interactions with them is using them to untap a bounceland the turn it comes into play, creating an almost amulet of vigor feel. I also was able to setup some great ambushes by cloaking the amout of mana available, one time overtapping for a starstorm to bait out a mana leak, which I prompty could untap and pay for. I also had one crazy sequence where I had to use frantic search in response to a conditional counter on my removal, in order to untap enough lands to rewind the counter. Being able to play with adult counterspells again felt great.

Hopefully, after tonight starstorm will get the respect that I think the card deserves. Instant speed wraths have been a staple of pauper for a long time, and having access to one as strong and versatile as starstorm was a real blast, especially in a deck running rewind. I could use rewindto either cloak my mana to try to tempt blowouts, fix my (admittedly poor) mana to make starstorm a possibility, or use it as a tool to ramp up the damage I needed to wipe the board. The biggest challenge was figuring out when preserving my own untap creatures and cycling was a better play than sweeping.

Rolling thunder was, of course, just terrifying in this deck once it got going. I was able to kill a guy outright with it from 16 life, lol. Mearly 11-12 point rolling thunders were more the norm though. It worked really nice with the rampers because its a one-sided wrath here, though I wish it was instant speed.

And this brings us to temur sabertooth, which I am still not sure about. Its a very durdly card, and hemorrhages so much tempo to do its thing that even in this deck it was difficult to play. This was partly because of the poor mana, which made casting and using it a challenge, and I was always trying to hold back waiting until I could both cast it and use it in the same turn (which may have been a mistake). I was always under enough pressure too, where I was hesistent to devote the time to get it setup--though this again might have been a play mistake given how impactful it is once it gets going. Late game, with enough mana, however, it did feel like a soft lock, as you could recur bone shredder to take over most boards, or mnemonic wall to rebuy rolling thunder. I think its ideal home would be a two color green deck with a lot of ramp (R/G or U/G). My instinct is that it probably is a little bit too strong, but I kind of want to see if my players can keep it under control.

Play of the night, after all, was a game where I lost. He nightmare voided my sabertooth, when I later went to reclaimit (did it main phase, trying to be efficent with mana), he compulsive researched me so that he could nightmare void it again...off of a treasure cruise triggered dredge. Ouch, but really good play from him.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ok, making some structural changes.

This is kind of a difficult update to describe (great way to start off the update), but I'm trying to better calibrate how I want people to interact with artifacts, adding some lifegain, and refining the black section.

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I know some of those cuts look weird, and i'm open to pushback. Basically, there is no way I can figure out what anti-artifact/enchantment package is going to work unless I experiment and make some odd cuts.

I'm trying to give the af/enchantment interactions a lifegain element to make it feel more enticing in green and white. Blue has enough bounce to interact with these cards, and black has discard. For red I am just taking a page from pauper and running smash and ingot chewer, both cards flexible enough to end up in the format's aggro decks. I feel like there is actually a plan here, which is refreshing.

I'm going with my instincts and chopping sabertooth.

As for the discard package, that I've also been looking to refine, by using it to blur black's control and tempo packages. ETB discard creatures disrupt, provide pressure, work well with ninjas, but can also be tossed aside to a sweeper.

Also adding ink-eyes because ninjutsu is the most fun mechanic in the game i.m.o.

I'm putting in into the roil mostly because of how well it works with persecute.

I think this is a really solid package to help balance out some of the ramp and combo strategies, while adding a pleasent proactive feeling to black.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats an interesting comparison. The potential ceiling on wayfinder is much higher, but with ranger you don't have the risk of milling away a critical card in a format with a limited focus on the graveyard.

Honestly, it hadn't even occured to me that you could grab a bounceland with wayfinder: thats pretty awesome.

This is good point to mention that I am trying some of the R/G control tech from the other thread, so ulasht, the hate seed is coming out (thank god) for savage twister, which is the new R/G nudge card for control.

Red has starstorm, sulfurous blast, rough // tumble, and rolling thunder for sweeper selection. It can also enchant up a spikeshot elder.

For value dorks, it has the x2 mogg war marshal, sylvan ranger, civic wayfinder, and borderland ranger. The cuts for those being armor of thorns, and mutagenic growth. I like growth, and I wasn't excited about the cut, but its a somewhat redundant effect, there are less heroic cards now, and I think having a 3rd value mana dork will ultimately be better for the cube.

Of course that brings us back to wayfinder v. ranger or wayfinder v. borderland ranger.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
We drafted orgins this weekend, but here are two cube tutor drafts of the decks from the update. Pretty happy with them.

U/B Tempo Rats from CubeTutor.com












Value generation. Seems like a really nice fusion of tempo, disruption, and control strategies. The thing that I really like about this is that I haven't had to sacrifice black's existing control focus in order to add this more proactive tempo deck: the two neatly support one another.

R/G Control Ramp from CubeTutor.com












Lets value ramp into sweepers and than into finishers that stabilize the board. I love how the rec. sage and molder gain added utility for their ability to destroy wellsprings, turning them into value cards besides just being hate cards, and acting as another tool to trigger the lifegain from maurader.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Wanted to share some excerpts from a conversation I've been having with modin, as I think its fairly interesting, and I could use some outside opinions.

Whirler Rogue does seem very nice. I didn't include it yet because I was rather afraid of blue becoming too strong. I do feel that UW Artifact strategies seem to have quite a hard time against some of the other archetypes(they don't have the best removal and it's rather expensive so they are often killed before they can reasonably interact, a t4 Faith's Fetters often isn't enough against the well built aggro and tempo decks, also I feel that the black control decks are on par with it's attrition game, at least from what I've seen). Therefore I'd like to help that archetype but not destroy the neat balance of colors as it is right now(white would be the first one to need a little buff).

I think one of white's problems is that its not quite as tempo efficient as the other colors. Splicers are powerful, but require an investment over multiple turns, and are vulnerable to red sweepers, black spot removal, or just play spells less efficently than the ninja decks.

Yepp UW is kinda weird. I think part of the problem lies with black. In my opinion black plays so much better with what blue is trying to do that you would never be incentivized to go UW instead. Part of this is black's strong cmc4 removal suite, the other part black's ability to play the value game very well as well as having answers to swarmed boards.
White's detain guys and aggro drops are great but I don't think that blue supports white's aggro play enough as it is. Part of the UG Tempo deck's strenghts is in my opinion greens ability to pants up a little dude and immeadiately hit for a bunch. Blue cannot abuse white's temporary buff effects and protection as good because the colors have some overlap there(blink, temporary protection and counterspells fill somewhat of the same role).
I guess white's value plays aren't affecting the board/what the opponent is doing fast enough.

I think you are probably right about UW identity. Originally, my thought process was that U/W would:

1. Have a unique take on heroic (failed).
2. Be able to leverage blue card draw and counterspells in conjunction with white temp protection to leverage a sort of tempy, flyers based gameplan. However, I think UB (especially now with the ninjas) just plays a much stronger tempo game. White removal is also much weaker than black removal, and lends itself very poorly to a true U/W control deck.
3. Offer up the formats primer midrange deck in the form of UW splicers. I still think this is a good deck, but its a bit too slow i.m.o. With such good tempo decks, casting one spell a turn just puts you further behind.

This is really interesting to me, because in pauper U/W is not a popular color combination, really because it dosen't provide the sort of blisteringly fast plays the other colors do. Blink effects tend to drag games out, and are more card advantage focused, which is not where you want to be. I wonder if i'm not seeing a condensing of the format.

Thoughts?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Here are how the changes finally shook out in total:

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During the course of this accounting I discovered that there is some extra card in white that should be cut (I had evidently taken arrest out ages ago in real life) and needs to be a sunlance.

I'm trying to polish the format and move it more towards singleton. Some of the gold cards were more support cards than nudge, so I'm experimenting with some different cards there.

Right now I am breaking singleton with master splicer, sunscape familiar, auriok salvagers, cloud of faeries, goblin bushwhacker, and mogg war marshal. I'm ok with those doubles, accept I would like to find a replacement for the second sunscape familiar. I'm breaking singleton on the bouncelands currently, but I don't think thats actually necessary, and if I had something else to try I would give it a whirl.

experimenting with some singleton options in the artifact section:

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This is probably a bit too soon, as I feel I'm short about two good egg effects but I want to see how it goes.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Was pretty happy with the changes; however I will be going back to the old artifact count. I could avoid breaking singleton, but to do so I would have to compromise too much on the budget aspect of the cube. Basically, cut a row of bouncelands, add a row of painlands, than run the above mentioned aritfact sections, but with too more open slots for artifacts (from going singleton on star/sphere). Add flame-kin zealot and atarka's command (-1 ghor clan, -1 angel). Argivian archaeologist replaces the second auriok salvagers. The second rusted relic becomes chronomaton and the second Master Splicer becomes high sentinels of arashin. Than whatever you want to run to replace mogg war marshal.

You end up essentially replacing the artifact themes with more of a focus on +1 +1 counters.

Of the cards that I inserted, everything seems fine, doppleganger was good graveyard hate. However, Enthralling victor enthralled no one, molder was excessive, condemn too efficent, and savra probably dosen't have the support she needs. She still gets to remain for the time being. Retooling some of the removal as well.

Changes

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This deals with a few issues. Almost all of the removal now in the cube has some meaningful meta condition placed upon it: red is damage; black is color, damage, or lack of targeting; and white is permanent vulerability and color. Each condition represents a situational meta strength: speed, efficency, ability to get around hexproof, keeps it out of the yard, can target an opponent etc.

This helps address the previous ubiquitous power level of black removal (I had thought casting cost alone would be enough of a control), which is the first balancing issue this update addresses. Black removal was being combined with tempo generating pieces to compensate for its cost, effectively making certain combinations (like UB) feel broken. I had originally intended these cards to be psudo sweepers in tool box control decks, but that wasn't how they were being used.

There is also more of a light draw towards the graveyard based around removal. These are value pieces that should be the hook to start drawing more people into graveyard based strategies, making them feel more connected with the rest of the cube (and adding another meaningful meta condition onto removal).

The second major balancing issue was white, which upon going over the color in more detail was too shallow. It will benefit from the changes in black removal, but there were too many redundant reactive effects. I want to retain the sort of reactive aggro feel to the color, but otherworldly journey comes out for the more powerful parallax wave (which also works with whites self-bounce effects), and myrsmith comes out for battle screech. The problem with the smiths' in general, is that there aren't enough artifacts being cast for them (30 card artifact section). I still have the red one, because the effect is quite powerful, but he may eventually be cut. I selected battle screech because the flashback works rather nicely in grindy Junk decks. Knight of the white orchid is a value creature that can be buffed or blinked: not sure if he will stay, but I couldn't think of anything else I wanted to run.

Some of the more narrow cards are coming out: atog, empty the warrens, and mark of mutiny.

I've also added a touch of land destruction/disruption to squeeze the bounceland based decks just a little bit. Mold shambler can blow up artifacts/enchantments, as well as lands, but does so at 6 mana. Petravark dosen't really destroy them, but heavily disrupts them.

This is another angle to squeeze those deck types: think of it as the wasteland effect, but much gentler and coming from different vectors across the cube. People that want to build higher curve decks can still do that, but have to take into account the discard from black, the bounce in blue, and the land destruction/disruption in red and green.

Also, the value creatures worked out pretty well. We had our first. what I am referring to as a Jund deck (in terms of its play pattern, as well as colors) last night.










Wort, of course, being the star of the show.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ok, I am declaring this cube finished. Might we take the design/construction out of the title?

I won't go anymore singleton with it unless nearly identical cards are printed of where I have broken singleton, or weird stuff like fair blood artist, which will be going in. It feels very balanced, with lots of strategic depth, and diversity to play. I can only make it worse, outside of the usual fun of playing with the multi-color section.

I went through and did a last round of balancing, blue was the best color, and certain cards have been brought more in line.

The last major change, which I feel is rather brilliant, is that I solved my artifact destruction/lack of artifact sac. outlet problem. I'm going x3 chromatic star and x3 terrarion, backed up by the 4 wellsprings. The anti-artifact package in white now consists of mangara of corondor (blink synergy) and kor sanctifiers, the red package manic vandal and ingot chewer. One reclamation sage, mold shambler, and acidic slime in green.

There are 10 total egg effects that can be cracked either by blowing them up or actually sacing them. This makes all of the ETB "destroy artifact" effects much better, since you can always direct them at one of the eggs for value, in the event you lack an opposing target. Since the eggs were to be the primary targets for red artifact sac. effects, this solves both the problem of making artifact destruction feel less narrow, and providing a way to crack eggs. This strategy also helps fuel the white artifact recursion strategies. Galepowder was added to help support the newly discovered U/W ramp deck.

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Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Any reason for the Needle Specter over the Hippie?

Also, yay! Another heroic guy to quench my insatiable thirst for GW Pants Beats. I thought the heroic theme was being on the decline, or was that just you cutting it from blues slice of the archetypes?
 
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