General Two Thoughts on Cube Design

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I have some thoughts about basic cube design that isn't really anything we don't already know, but I wanted to put it into words anyway because I think it is one of the best takeaways one can get when figuring out how to put together of box of magic cards with the intention of sharing it with friends.

If there are two things you should know about cube design that are really important yet have absolutely nothing to do with the cards or mechanics of Magic, it is the following two related statements:

1) As the designer, you are solely responsible for the product. No one else. No excuses. Just you.
2) The players absolutely do not care about anything other then how the cube plays.

If you are creating your cube purely as a thought experiment or just to show off how cool/rich you are to other cube designers on the internet, feel free to ignore this advice. I am defining cube as a game design activity, with the sole purpose of the activity to create a quality gameplay.

Point 1 should be self-evident, but people often make excuses for their design limitations or flaws, blaming them on outside factors which in reality are completely under there control. The mostly common source of blame I see is a strange one: blame placed on an arbitrary limitation. In these cases, the cube designer often recognizes a fault and even recognizes the solution, but continues to develop the inferior product because they "can't" implement the solution as it breaks a "rule" of the cube. "Singleton", "Only Real Cards", "Peasant", "Modern Frame", "Use Complete Cycles", whatever. Cube designers often point to these things, these limits, these design constraints that guide their design and immutable and beyond their control, but we know that's a lie. The designer is the one who created these rules in the first place. They are an excuse. They are an apology. They are a safety blanket and a crutch. They are a self-serving challenge. They are at best a guideline, but once you've recognized their limitation, you are doing your cube a disservice by keeping them, particularly if you've already recognized the flaw and the solution. There is no slippery slope argument that works here, if continuing to "break" the rules keeps improving the quality of the gameplay of your cube, then sliding down that slope is what you want to be doing, not trying to avoid.

And the players? Point 2. They really don't care about any of those things. If the games are better, the players are happier.

The second biggest source of blame is on first party design and development, which we'll call "WotC" for simplicity. People blame the pool as cards as printed for flaws in their design, forgetting the most important thing: they pick which ones they put in. My favorite example of this is the great wave of "Black Sucks in cube" complaints, to which my immediate and confused reaction was, "well, you put the cards in, whose fault is that?" You pick the cards that go in, if something isn't working, its on you. If the solution you want isn't around, its because you haven't solved it. WotC designs a broad pool of cards for their own purposes, not for your cube. Its up to you to repurpose them or, if your goal is specific enough that cards don't exist, to design your own.

And the players? They really don't care.

But what if Point 2 is wrong? What if you meet that guy that says "I'd play this cube, but it has 2 Duress and therefore I object to it on a design level and refuse to have fun?"

Clearly this guy isn't seriously interested in playing, he's a designer that likes to show off his ability to stick to arbitrary guidelines and complete thought experiments, so he has more fun reading cube your lists and asserting his elite opinions of them then he would actually playing them. We know these guys exist, but they aren't players so there is no reason to worry about them. Players really don't care. Seriously cube with someone who never heard of cube, there is an approximately 0% chance that they will have a negative comment on their being 2 rakdos cacklers in the pool, the three rares in a otherwise common only cube or the enchantresses presence in the modern cube, but its very likely they'll have lots to say about the actual quality of the games they play, the interest or frustrations of the gamestates that arise and the general level of enjoyment of the games they played (as well as which cards played a part in the positive and negative aspects of those things). Comments on the non-gameplay part of the cube are purely from a design related pace, but our goal as a designer is not to impress other designers, its to make cubes that play great Magic. If they happen to impress other designers, it should be because of that, not because the list sticks to some arbitrary standard.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I like most of this. I would caution that, while players indeed mostly don't give a fuck about the structure of the Cube, you have to be somewhat aware of the expectations that a perceptive drafter is going to have/acquire. As designers we're omniscient regarding the contents of our Cubes, and the slippery slope arguments don't apply because - as you say - we get to decide what they contain, but if I'm drafting a Cube for the first time and I see cards that break the themes or rules I'm expecting then I have to ask how far that goes. If I see double Rakdos Cackler I'll wonder what other cards are doubled, if there's one old frame card in the Modern Cube then there can be more, and so on. Generally my reaction, along with everyone else's, is 'hey, that's cool' without a second thought, but given how complex Cube already is I don't want to add to the cognitive burden drafters (especially, but not limited to, less experienced players) face by making them haphazardly guess at what they will and won't see. This is most acute when you break the 'only cards that exist' rule, which is an implied and cardinal rule of almost every Cube (no matter how exotic it is in other aspects); at least if I open double Cackler or a rare or whatever I have an idea of what's going on, but as soon as I spy a custom card any frame of reference I had for what might be in the Cube goes out the window; I can't even use the knowledge I have of the Magic card pool, so my experience counts for nothing instead of as useful guide.

(Now, maybe that's actually a way to level the playing field between old-timers and new players, for whom many of the cards in a given pack are essentially the same as custom cards, but...)
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I like most of this. I would caution that, while players indeed mostly don't give a fuck about the structure of the Cube, you have to be somewhat aware of the expectations that a perceptive drafter is going to have/acquire. As designers we're omniscient regarding the contents of our Cubes, and the slippery slope arguments don't apply because - as you say - we get to decide what they contain, but if I'm drafting a Cube for the first time and I see cards that break the themes or rules I'm expecting then I have to ask how far that goes. If I see double Rakdos Cackler I'll wonder what other cards are doubled, if there's one old frame card in the Modern Cube then there can be more, and so on. Generally my reaction, along with everyone else's, is 'hey, that's cool' without a second thought, but given how complex Cube already is I don't want to add to the cognitive burden drafters (especially, but not limited to, less experienced players) face by making them haphazardly guess at what they will and won't see. This is most acute when you break the 'only cards that exist' rule, which is an implied and cardinal rule of almost every Cube (no matter how exotic it is in other aspects); at least if I open double Cackler or a rare or whatever I have an idea of what's going on, but as soon as I spy a custom card any frame of reference I had for what might be in the Cube goes out the window; I can't even use the knowledge I have of the Magic card pool, so my experience counts for nothing instead of as useful guide.


Whenever you open up a new board game, you are going to have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on. You are going to have expectations based on other games and many of them will be useless or just plain wrong. You are going to see similarities to other games and you are going to see divergence from them. First games are often chaotic, confusing and no one really knows why the person who won the game won. And I think that is perfectly fine.

When I think of a cube, I think of it like a new board game, except the burden of knowledge actually lower because even though the card pool may be completely unknown, at least everyone knows the actual mechanics of the game. I mean, before you play your first game of Princes of Florence, do you really memorize all of the Artist, Prestige and Bonus cards? I doubt it. You probably play it out, get a feel for the way the game works, decide if you like it and if you get into it, you go ahead and start to learn that stuff that you'll need to gain Mastery of the game. I think the same concept applies to cube.

I mean, if you do have a person who has to totally be awesome at your cube the first time they play it, you can always send them your cubetutor link ahead of time or print out a copy of your list so they can plan their strategy out. (Like people who scour Boardgamegeek for strategy hints before playing a new game). At the very least, you're right about this, you should give people who have specific preconceived notions fair warning.

I agree though, cube has built up expectations which can be challenging to work with, but as someone who has had great success with a very unconventional list I think its worth doing.

(As someone who plays with gamers who play Magic rather then Magic players, I find your last comment particularly true. With a cardpool knowledge from the mid 90's, many of them read real modern cards and say things like "are you sure you didn't make this thing up, what the fuck is this I don't even know?")
 
I agree with what FlowerSunRain is saying. When I put my cube together, I had two big restraints. Core sets only, and no shuffling. I hate shuffling. After playing for a while, I realized that Manalith was not cutting it for mana fixing, and what the cube needed was mana fixing. But I said no shuffling. Eventually I realized that evolving wilds met all my needs except my irrational hatred for shuffle effects. I put it in and it made things better. I held on to the core sets restraint, though.

expectations that a perceptive drafter is going to have/acquire.
I think this is an important point. I think the cube designer does need to be careful about the signals sent to players by cards being present. If you get passed a Megrim in pack 1, you should be able to reasonably assume that the discard deck is a viable (perhaps not optimal) thing in this cube. If it isn't, the cube designer is lying to the player a bit.
 
Very good points FSR.

My only caveat would be on setting artificial constraints. I don't think it's quite that black and white (at least not for everyone). If you don't set SOME kind of design constraint, you literally have TOO many options. Not all of us can operate with the doors that wide open. I wouldn't even know where to start. So I set a lot of artificial limits and rules so that I have a framework to operate under. And I change/add/subtract them all the time depending on my mood and where my cube is at.

For example, I have insanely dogmatic rules about CMC. I literally have to run exactly the same number of cards at each slot in each color. And a set number overall. It's an unbreakable rule that serves no real purpose other than preventing me from being paralyzed by too many choices. I know I need to run 11 black 3 drops. No more and no less. If I could run any number I wanted, I wouldn't know what the hell to do. I'd just flounder and never get anywhere as I second guessed every fringe card choice I made (as it is, I do that way too much). I can totally understand people thinking this is a retarded way to operate, and it is in many ways, but it works for me.

The point about older Magic players being WTF about modern cards... that has happened so many times in my group. Some guys have literally gotten pissed off about it (because some of the newer cards shit all over stuff they used to think was powerful - it's like the game is TOO different for them sometimes). But that's another topic all together.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I don't think it's quite that black and white (at least not for everyone). If you don't set SOME kind of design constraint, you literally have TOO many options. Not all of us can operate with the doors that wide open. I wouldn't even know where to start. So I set a lot of artificial limits and rules so that I have a framework to operate under. And I change/add/subtract them all the time depending on my mood and where my cube is at.

For example, I have insanely dogmatic rules about CMC. I literally have to run exactly the same number of cards at each slot in each color. And a set number overall. It's an unbreakable rule that serves no real purpose other than preventing me from being paralyzed by too many choices. I know I need to run 11 black 3 drops. No more and no less. If I could run any number I wanted, I wouldn't know what the hell to do. I'd just flounder and never get anywhere as I second guessed every fringe card choice I made (as it is, I do that way too much). I can totally understand people thinking this is a retarded way to operate, and it is in many ways, but it works for me.

I get that and even if it comes off otherwise, I really don't care if people do that. I only get bothered when people take that and try to justify it as good design to others or use it as a basis to judge other people's design. I fully understand focusing your work and that people don't have/want to spend countless hours on their cube, so they will take shortcuts. That's completely fair. But, if things don't work as well as you'd like, you need to understand where the blame lies and who is responsible for it and that the answer will always be the same. If you are willing to "change/add/subtract" your constraints as your cube evolves, you are doing it right.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I think this is an important point. I think the cube designer does need to be careful about the signals sent to players by cards being present. If you get passed a Megrim in pack 1, you should be able to reasonably assume that the discard deck is a viable (perhaps not optimal) thing in this cube. If it isn't, the cube designer is lying to the player a bit.

This is an interesting point to me, and I remember Usman telling a story he had playing pauper cube one time, and he opened Manaweft Sliver. He wasn't in green, so he passed it, but after the draft the person on his left complained because he didn't see another sliver all draft

"It's the only one in the cube. It's fine on it's own. Can't exactly run Sylvan Caryatid after all :p"

I wonder how much explanation we owe our drafters :p

I used to tell people who drafted my cube each and every single card I was doubling up on. That got real wordy real fast, so it stopped after about 3 game sessions, but sometimes I wonder if people feel misled when they draft for the first time and wonder about all these birthing pods.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
"It's the only one in the cube. It's fine on it's own. Can't exactly run Sylvan Caryatid after all :p"

I like this annecdote a lot, because the message is twofold:

1) Having an "excuse" for a bad design decision doesn't make it feel better.
2) People have expectations that might need to be bursted.

While its not exactly the issue I had in mind with this thread, it is certainly on topic:

What's the best way to communicate your cube's intentions? As someone who generally plays with the same people all the time and usually plays with people who don't have an expectation for "what cube is", I've never had a problem with this, but its certainly an interesting one.
 
What's the best way to communicate your cube's intentions? As someone who generally plays with the same people all the time and usually plays with people who don't have an expectation for "what cube is", I've never had a problem with this, but its certainly an interesting one.

I pretty much just say "my cube, deal with it." It helps that I'm not afraid to turn away random regulars at the store, and I never feel the need to invite strangers just to fill out a few seats in a draft.
 
I wish my usual players were more relaxed about design. They constantly complain about card choices, but alas, these are who I have to work with. They frequently provide good advice, but it has to be sifted out of the general complaints and dubious advice (about half of them are game designers). The "hating shuffling" is a theme amongst them. They also hate 2-power 1-drops, doubling up on cards, etc. One person has decided that he no longer wants to participate in my cube because it is too fast and unusual (he is used to modo cube). He reminds me of CML's friend who refuses to cube. Yet most of them still play and seem to enjoy it overall I guess, even though some of them are complaining the whole time.

So, that is a thing. In other words, it is not my experience that players will happily be content simply due to good design. If they lose (or even win by a lot) they will blame their lack of fun on my non-adherence to certain conventional design principles. At the same time they also hate some conventional design principles.

They can be annoying at times but they're good players, so I enjoy trying to beat them.

Just to reiterate what ahadabans was saying, I will sometimes default to arbitrary rules I invent if I'm becoming paralyzed by decisions. I think having some minor constraints can be a good thing. You just don't want to have strong enough constraints that it is forcing you to make obviously bad design choices. There is some value in a player being able to quickly grasp simple structural themes of your cube. Also, aesthetics do count for something. I'd argue that a player would have a better time playing with real magic cards than shitty scrawled on pieces of paper in sleeves. I know that people usually make nice proxies, but my point is that there are reasonable limits. You ought to "constrain yourself" to using cards that look presentable.
 
1) Having an "excuse" for a bad design decision doesn't make it feel better.
2) People have expectations that might need to be bursted.

I'm going to go all MaRo on this as this is the comfort/surprise/completion thing he likes to bang on about.

On point one, having an excuse for a non-completion still means there is no completion which means that people are on tenterhooks wanting the thing to be completed, because that is cognitively what they're expecting.

On point two, people do have expectations that should be ignored (surprise), but not at the expense of the other two.

On the anecdote: people know slivers, people like slivers. This is comfort. The surprise is that there's only one in the cube! There's no completion. This is unsatisfying. It would be better design to either put in a minor sliver theme in green (maybe like muscle, quick, spinneret, job's a good 'un), or switch to a different mana producer (assuming we want an any-colour producer we have our good friend scuttlemutt, there's birchlore rangers, elvish harbinger, without going too far afield), or, you know, pursuant to the OP, just fucking put Sylvan Caryatid in, it won't be the end of the world and it's not like its a different non-pauper card like Spiritmonger or any planeswalker or a dragon or whatever.
 
I guess part of my point is that point 2 in the OP isn't quite formulated right? Designing a game is designing for players. I can design the perfect game, but if 90% of players don't find it fun, then it's not a good design. If players can be upset that their assumptions both aren't catered to or interestingly subverted, then you need to cater to their assumptions or interestingly subvert them.

Incidentally, from my sliver choice you can see I would go with OG slivers rather than the M14 slivers in such a small splash, because that will make for interesting gameplay in a way that if the cube was sliver dense would be obnoxious.
 
Also, we all have arbitrary rules. We all run some monocolour cards. Our cubes all have all 5 colours represented. We all run removal. We all run creatures, and non-basic lands, and instants, and sorceries and so on and so forth. Saying that some rules (singleton, no-shuffle, pauper, no-custom, don't do a utility land draft after the main draft) is silly but some rules (above) are of course a natural part of magic is being short sighted. We pick out restrictions and we stick to them; some of them are more deep-seated and subconscious than others.

That desert cube where you have to draft your basic lands is super badass, and I'm tempted to put that cube together for the sheer joy of it. That cube which was no creatures (but had token generators) was interesting. I'm kinda interested in seeing if a no-blue cube would be worthwhile. I have half a mind to try and make a 'no commons' cube that also tries to not be a gigantic clusterfuck.

Also, thought experiment cubes should be more focused on not fucking these things up. I'm never going to build no-blue cube, but if I do work on it, I'm going to work on having it be as playable as possible, as demonstrated by test drafts, test sealed, some number crunching, and going 'hey guys, what have I missed here'. The fact I've got this arbitrary rule to force my hand means I should be more aware of what that rule does to my environment and make a good environment despite the limitation. I shouldn't give up the limitation, but I need to know what it's doing and how to keep the gameplay fun with every tool I have that falls within those rules.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Also, we all have arbitrary rules. We all run some monocolour cards. Our cubes all have all 5 colours represented. We all run removal. We all run creatures, and non-basic lands, and instants, and sorceries and so on and so forth. Saying that some rules (singleton, no-shuffle, pauper, no-custom, don't do a utility land draft after the main draft) is silly but some rules (above) are of course a natural part of magic is being short sighted. We pick out restrictions and we stick to them; some of them are more deep-seated and subconscious than others.

I agree with most of what you've said, but this feels a little weird to me in ways I can't quite put to words. I think perhaps it's the idea that just because you do something (or don't do it) that that's a rule. Off the top of my head, there were lots of tile arrangements that didn't appear in the core Carcassonne set, but that was more incidental than by virtue of some rule explicitly stating those tiles couldn't be there. I know this is opening up a whole strawman about monetization and expansions, but whatever.

It's a question of causality. Did we subject our design to a priori restrictions, or did we seek the most fun design and go where it took us? Obviously direction can help (I want to build a tile-laying game) give us some focus, but given the infinite design space that an original game has, things are included or excluded based on the gameplay they produce, not a focus on "rules".

In a broad sense it's a bit of a "top-down" versus "bottom-up" style debate.


For an example, when my playgroup was smaller and 8-player drafts were hard to come by, I wanted to find a way to force more competition for cards among players. With a fixed number of drafters, two possible (not exhaustive) ways to do this are to encourage players to play more colors, or to include fewer colors in the cube. I went with a three-color UWR cube where each color had elements of aggro and control. I didn't start by setting a rule that arbitrarily said I wanted a three-color cube. I started with my game's design need and followed it to a usable solution.
 
Right, but if you're struggling with your UWR cube, it's not a particularly useful suggestion to say 'add green; you need ramp', whereas a lot of suggestions are 'double up on gravecrawlers' or 'add custom cards'. But then I said to that pauper sliver caryatid question 'just add the rare' so clearly I come down somewhere weird on the spectrum. Clearly the restriction 'low power level with only rares to fill gaping holes' is a better restriction than 'pauper', which is only a stone's throw from custom cards, which I'm against on a certain player expectation issues.

Obviously there's a question of scale in all these things, which I'm totally conflating in that post because I couldn't think of anything on the same scale as singleton/not and custom cards/not that's just kinda default to magic.
 
restriction makes the context of the cube easier to comprehend, and that's important. this is something your players will experience more on a subconscious level than explicitly. the "you have 2 duresses, i'm not playing" guy is a complete fucking tool. but imagine the player who expects only 1 duress, and has the 2nd happen to him in an unexpected situation. that can be an uncomfortable violation of his expectations. every design choice you make like this should have good reasons.
it kind of helps me that i have all customized cards because people know to throw their expectations out the window instead of feeling cheated on them

plenty of "rulebreaking" isn't worth it in a given situation. i love the utility land draft, but the increased complexity from my custom cards means that i don't fuck with that. having rules gives your design direction, but you must examine closely how and why you have each rule.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I agree with most of what you've said, but this feels a little weird to me in ways I can't quite put to words. I think perhaps it's the idea that just because you do something (or don't do it) that that's a rule. Off the top of my head, there were lots of tile arrangements that didn't appear in the core Carcassonne set, but that was more incidental than by virtue of some rule explicitly stating those tiles couldn't be there. I know this is opening up a whole strawman about monetization and expansions, but whatever.

It's a question of causality. Did we subject our design to a priori restrictions, or did we seek the most fun design and go where it took us? Obviously direction can help (I want to build a tile-laying game) give us some focus, but given the infinite design space that an original game has, things are included or excluded based on the gameplay they produce, not a focus on "rules".

In a broad sense it's a bit of a "top-down" versus "bottom-up" style debate.

I suppose its obvious what side of the debate I fall on, but the idea that categories are determined a priori seems ridiculous. By that logic, my cube should be called a powered cube, because my design parameters allow for me to play Ancestral Recall and friends, it just so happens that during the cube design process none of those cards made the cut. But, to call my cube a powered cube would seem to defy the expectations of the players when Mox Sapphire isn't in the pile. It seems clear that those delineations should be (and if we're honest with ourselves, are) made once the product is finished: the label should express what the product is rather then what the product could have been.

I guess the main issue as such is what the base implication of cube is, what that expresses and how we can communicate the divide. I really understand the sentiments you guys are bringing with regards to the fact that my Point 2 might be a little (lot?) Ivory Tower, but I get a little stubborn about thinking that I need to change the approach I've developed over the years to meet these relatively new expectations and I honestly believe (as has been my experience) that if you bring your cube to the table with passion and openess people really, really just don't care and are willing to play your game as if it is a new thing.

Because it is.
 
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