I'm usually the person saying "power creep! grbs!!!11!1" but Ilharg doesn't strike me as such an offender. First, it has no impact on the first turn - needs to attack to do something and has no haste. Second, you need the other creature in your hand, and it's a 5-drop, so what are the chances you get to attack with it AND have something bigger to play? Third, even though you cheat on tempo by casting a creature for free, you aren't cheating on card advantage. Fourth, the "always coming back" is annoying, but tucking in library is not card advantage, and third means you need three turns to draw it (modulus card filtering and drawing of course), so it's a bit repetitive, but not so pushed.
General [WAR] War of the Spark
- Thread starter Velrun
- Start date
I'm not saying it's broken by any means either, but I think a 5 mana 6/6 trampler, let alone with additional upside, isn't something we would have seen in red even when I started playing.
Who likes top-of-library manipulation?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Setting your life to 1 such a huge upside 
Combos with Providence.
I'm joking of course. But they used to be so bad that we have no data points to show that 3RR 6/6 trample with those upsides is that pushed, because there are no "almost there" 3RR 6/6 tramples, just terrible ones.
I'm joking of course. But they used to be so bad that we have no data points to show that 3RR 6/6 trample with those upsides is that pushed, because there are no "almost there" 3RR 6/6 tramples, just terrible ones.
I started seriously playing in 2013, about a 2 months before Theros was released.
I don't think a couple of bad cards from the late 90s and early 2000s is a great way to illustrate a point
.What I mean by "above curve" is "above the power/toughness ratio equal to the Mana Cost time 2. The way I've always thought of it is something is "on curve" if the combined stats of the creature equal twice the mana cost of the card. For example: Colossal Dreadmaw is on curve, Ripjaw Raptor is slightly above curve, and Polukranos, World Eater is well above curve. A creature's abilities can also add into a cards "curviness." For example, Thragtusk, Tireless Tracker, and Snapcaster Mage are all on curve, despite the combined power/toughness not adding up to their respective mana costs. Even though the Orggs are "well above curve" as far as stats are concerned, they aren't actually above the power level curve for creatures of that CMC and color because of their drawback. You're never going to play an Orgg over a Glorybringer.
Getting back to Ilharg, I think the pig is above curve because it's total P/T add up to over the cmc, in addition to the built-in evasion in the form of trample, as well as the annoying ability to never go away permanently, the free Sneak Attack every turn. I'm not saying that he's over-powered by any means, but it seems like they just added extra stats to this card to make it better, which is very similar to the definition of power creep.
Again, not saying it's necessarily over-powered, but I think it is completely fair to say it's power creep.
I think we just found the worst god-eternal:
It looks like they all will have the same keywords as their Amonkhet counterparts- so Oketra will have Double-Strike and Kefnet will have Flying.
It looks like they all will have the same keywords as their Amonkhet counterparts- so Oketra will have Double-Strike and Kefnet will have Flying.
Crushing. I am so, so sad that the green god is so underwhelming. I need good green 5s, damn it!
Just took a look at Eleusis, there are a couple good green fives you could try:
For those of you running spells matter, the new William Kefner is probably a shoe in! I still like Bontu more though.
I'm willing to test the blue god. His floor is perfectly reasonable, anyway.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
For all of these gods, I wonder how annoying the "immortal" part of the card will be. Especially against blue, third card from the top is not three turns.
Yeah, that's a good point about blue finding its third card down more quickly. But as for the others, I don't feel as if the wonky recursion is going to be backbreaking. Three turns is a helluva long time in cube.
Wow Kefnet is incredible. 4/5 flier for 4 is already ahead of the curve, having the god recursion is just gravy. Becomes nutty with any instant speed card draw letting you do normally sorcery speed stuff on your opponent's turn. Looters have even great utility with this on the field. Like Gnoll, I don't think the recursion is such a big deal in cube with how much can happen in such a short amount of time. Sure, Blue can probably get their 2nd helping of this quicker than other colors, but this is also drastically different playing on T4 vs. T6+ in most games.
Well, being 3-colored is a pretty high price at least.
There have been a few cards with slightly pushed stats before, but I feel like, it really started when they printed the titans. I think power creep can be a good thing, to some degree when it makes sense. Like, creatures really were too weak 15-20 years ago. But there was more of a fundamental change. A change in philosophy. Rares were better than uncommon and commons, because they had interesting abilities and/or rewarded you for building correctly. They weren't just good because their stats were pushed in absurd ways like we see here. Rhox was clearly better than Giant Warthog, even though they had the same body. Rares used to be more complex.
For example, noone would say Dark Confidant is a weaker card than Ilharg or the new Kefnet, but Bob doesn't have that too good feeling to it. It just has an effect that happens to be great in low curved decks. it is not good because they wanted to push it and made it a 3/2 with deathtouch and indestructible.
These days, Maro justifies pushed creatures with "Look, it's (mythic) rare!", but to me it also feels like they're violating the color pie more and more. Blue was the best spell color and the worst creature color since the beginning of MtG. It feels wrong to me to give it a goddamn (no pun intended) 4/5 flier for 4 alone, but then in addition it has also two strong upsides. Sure, it will see standard play at least probably, but I get the impression, they just push cards unreasonably when they wanna force players to use them i constructed, while cards like that one completely destroy any fair limited game they get played in. The same can be said for the Boar God too, a 6/6 tramper with two absurd upsides is nothing red (the second weakest creature color) should get. It also doesn't need to, because even stuff like Ironclaw Orcs saw constructed play in the right meta. That shows me, that the creature push is far beyond the necessary at this point.
There have been a few cards with slightly pushed stats before, but I feel like, it really started when they printed the titans. I think power creep can be a good thing, to some degree when it makes sense. Like, creatures really were too weak 15-20 years ago. But there was more of a fundamental change. A change in philosophy. Rares were better than uncommon and commons, because they had interesting abilities and/or rewarded you for building correctly. They weren't just good because their stats were pushed in absurd ways like we see here. Rhox was clearly better than Giant Warthog, even though they had the same body. Rares used to be more complex.
For example, noone would say Dark Confidant is a weaker card than Ilharg or the new Kefnet, but Bob doesn't have that too good feeling to it. It just has an effect that happens to be great in low curved decks. it is not good because they wanted to push it and made it a 3/2 with deathtouch and indestructible.
These days, Maro justifies pushed creatures with "Look, it's (mythic) rare!", but to me it also feels like they're violating the color pie more and more. Blue was the best spell color and the worst creature color since the beginning of MtG. It feels wrong to me to give it a goddamn (no pun intended) 4/5 flier for 4 alone, but then in addition it has also two strong upsides. Sure, it will see standard play at least probably, but I get the impression, they just push cards unreasonably when they wanna force players to use them i constructed, while cards like that one completely destroy any fair limited game they get played in. The same can be said for the Boar God too, a 6/6 tramper with two absurd upsides is nothing red (the second weakest creature color) should get. It also doesn't need to, because even stuff like Ironclaw Orcs saw constructed play in the right meta. That shows me, that the creature push is far beyond the necessary at this point.
How is the green god so much worse than the black one? Urgh
The push is so inelegant, as well. Adding more and more text to a card until it's good is ridiculous.
Bob is a good example. He does have a lot of text, but only because "draw and lose cmc" doesn't have a keyword. But he works efficiently and slowly. Your deck has to be constructed a certain way. His stats are poor to make up for the fact he has an excellent effect. Ilharg, while maybe not the best card ever, is STATS! SNEAK ATTACK! GET ME BACK IF YOU WANT! Tone it down a little.
Do we do memes here?
Anyone seen Princess Mononoke?
Bob is a good example. He does have a lot of text, but only because "draw and lose cmc" doesn't have a keyword. But he works efficiently and slowly. Your deck has to be constructed a certain way. His stats are poor to make up for the fact he has an excellent effect. Ilharg, while maybe not the best card ever, is STATS! SNEAK ATTACK! GET ME BACK IF YOU WANT! Tone it down a little.
Do we do memes here?
Anyone seen Princess Mononoke?
Excited to pair this card with red filtering spells to eek out tiny bits of advantage throughout a game. Will probably end up in decks with Mizzix's Mastery.
Yeah, that's what I mean. I get, that Gray Ogre isn't the right power level either, ut it just becomes lazy design. Instead of having creative concepts for rares, they just push cards with extra stats and abilities so they see standard play.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The converted mana cost of spells without a mana cost is 0, which means you can indeed cast Ancestral Vision, and other cards like it, from your graveyard with Finale of Promise.
