General What build arounds do you run?

Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

I'm pretty new to cube design, and although I've learnt plenty just by reading riptide articles and participating on these boards, I still notice that my themes don't always become apparent to my drafters. I'd like to learn how to give more directions to people playing the cube, so that you don't get completely paralyzed when trying to decide what cards to pick.

I also feel like there's a spectrum that moves from a pure good-stuff cube to an environment that is just a bunch of narrow cards that support one deck only, and the closer you get to the poison side the more obvious build arounds you get, with the trade of being that they also require just way more support (ie obscure tribal or affinity outside of artifact heavy cubes, a bit like modern masters?).

The best alternative is probably the middle ground, where cards require some effort from you as a drafter to really deliver, but also carry the decks somewhat themselves. So to get some discussion going and to help me get a sense of what other people run, what is your favorite build-around card you run in your cube from a designer perspective?
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

I cannot provide a concise list of cards, but I have noticed that players of my cube-like experiences enjoy (a) drawing cards, (b) obtaining value from the graveyard, (c) assembling card synergies and (d) abusing underpowered cards to great effect. Most of the time, players enjoy the cards in a deck setting more than as an individual card. I like a similar approach to grillo's penny pincher: start with lower-powered, interesting cards as strategic linchpins of themes and add in a way that doesn't obsolesce the majority of those cruxes, then, focus on developing a rich tactical environment. There are tens of thousands of "playable" Magic cards... if the environment is right!

My main advice would be: don't be *afraid* to cut conventionally good cards because they are oppressive to thematic drafting, and think about overlap for themes (not cards). Unique, build-around *cards* (even in multiples) will not integrate a strategy seamlessly into a limited environment.

Also, what themes have you had issues with, and what cubes are which they parts?
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

My issue isnt the modularity of the themes, but that my drafters arent realising that they're there! I think one solution is to add one or two dedicated cards for the theme, and slimming down the amount of themes I'm running to give more slots for the themes (of course one slot can support several themes).
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Hmmm, maybe you just need to teach them explicitly. I am lucky enough to play with a bunch of one-time-PT players and old-school limited addicts, but I made some large-print cheat sheets to aid novices and quickly communicate to experienced players. The information format of my aids: color(s) (via large mana symbols), strategy in 1-3 words, frequency of support in total population and marquee card list (5 cards max).
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I've been given a lot of thought to this question lately, trying to figure out why the draft dynamics in the penny pincher cube feel as good as they do.

One of Jason's early articles talked about his experiences with poisonous archetypes, which caused him to go with a super flexible design, which than had problems because the decks' lacked direction, and began to feel generic. The solution was to break singleton on exciting build around cards like birthing pod, which provided direction to drafters, and kept things spicy. This has been my traditional approach.

The pincher cube dosen't really have build arounds, with all of the cards in the main list being super flexible, accept for tortured existence (and this is only going to become more so). However, the decks don't feel generic. This is because the format gets most of its definition from the CIPT lands, which force the drafter to go down one of several strategic axes, radically changing the value of individual picks depending on the drafter's approach, and resulting in unique lists.

The other thing that it does is use the multi-color section to provide direction. The cards there aren't really true build arounds or support pieces, they are just powerful cards that would fit well in certain already supported archetypes, and provide hints to drafters. Maw of the Obzedat, for example, suggests that maybe it would be good to pick up some token makers in black and white, and combine those with value sac. effects like swarm of bloodflies. Battlewise hoplite, signels the existance of a U/W heroic deck.

I think CML's vampire article provides some good general insight. Running a density of non-posionous archetype pieces, and than providing incentive synergy for having a lot of those cards, seems like a good rule of thumb.

The last way, is by drafting the deck and winning with it. Believe it or not, my players were very very slow to figure out how abusive cloud of faeries can be with bouncelands, until they started getting murdered by mindshrieker.

So, I guess you have a few different approaches. Chris' idea sounds like it would be fun too, especially if applied creatively, and is probably the least invasive solution.
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Grillo_Parlante said:
I think CML's vampire article provides some good general insight. Running a density of non-posionous archetype pieces, and than providing incentive synergy for having a lot of those cards, seems like a good rule of thumb.
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Along a similar line to this, having major intersection points between archetypes will force players to learn about other archetypes they could have built around. For example, this is partly why I run Vinelasher Kudzu and Quirion Dryad. If you're on landfall or spells matter you must also become aware of the +1/+1 counter theme.
 
Tyrole

Tyrole

This article, as part of his series on archetypes, discusses your question directly: http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/articles/2013/12/under-the-hood-whats-in-an-archetype-part-two/

The main idea is "indicator cards" should point your drafters toward certain archetypes (e.g., Champion of the Parish for a humans theme). Equally important is removing indicator cards that are pointing drafters in the wrong direction. I recently had a drafter mentioned how he was trying to go Merfolk Tribal in my cube after P1P1 a Coralhelm Commander. He quickly found out that Corallhelm is the single Merfolk in my cube....

The key, as mentioned above, is to avoid anything poisonous. But there are plenty of creative ways to enable archetypes without risking poison.

Side note: these Magic Madhouse cube articles by Adam Thomas are without a doubt my favorite writings about cube outside of the riptidelab paradigm. Then again, he referred to squadroning in a recent article, so maybe he hangs around here too.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Tyrole said:
This article, as part of his series on archetypes, discusses your question directly: http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/articles/2013/12/under-the-hood-whats-in-an-archetype-part-two/

The main idea is "indicator cards" should point your drafters toward certain archetypes (e.g., Champion of the Parish for a humans theme). Equally important is removing indicator cards that are pointing drafters in the wrong direction. I recently had a drafter mentioned how he was trying to go Merfolk Tribal in my cube after P1P1 a Coralhelm Commander. He quickly found out that Corallhelm is the single Merfolk in my cube....

The key, as mentioned above, is to avoid anything poisonous. But there are plenty of creative ways to enable archetypes without risking poison.

Side note: these Magic Madhouse cube articles by Adam Thomas are without a doubt my favorite writings about cube outside of the riptidelab paradigm. Then again, he referred to squadroning in a recent article, so maybe he hangs around here too.
Click to expand...

I always feel odd about the "Wrong Signals" cards, since that's really unfair to coralhelm commander.
I love Blood-Chin Rager as a serviceable creature on his own that will buff the odd white 1 drop and mutavault. Is there a warrior "deck" in my cube? No, same way there is't a merfolk deck in your cube nor a Spirit/Arcane theme 99% of cubes that run Kodama's Reach

Hidden Synergy is nice, and I think it's worth teaching drafters about what happens in the average case, (When not all of your creatures have ETB Triggers in your pod deck, when you've got 5 humans for Champion of the Parish, or (As Above) you don't have any other merfolk for Coralhelm) since it's not always your deckbuilding decisions that get you in these situations

I'm gonna take a look at those articles though, sounds sweet
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Tyrole said:
This article, as part of his series on archetypes, discusses your question directly: http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/articles/2013/12/under-the-hood-whats-in-an-archetype-part-two/

The main idea is "indicator cards" should point your drafters toward certain archetypes (e.g., Champion of the Parish for a humans theme). Equally important is removing indicator cards that are pointing drafters in the wrong direction. I recently had a drafter mentioned how he was trying to go Merfolk Tribal in my cube after P1P1 a Coralhelm Commander. He quickly found out that Corallhelm is the single Merfolk in my cube....

The key, as mentioned above, is to avoid anything poisonous. But there are plenty of creative ways to enable archetypes without risking poison.

Side note: these Magic Madhouse cube articles by Adam Thomas are without a doubt my favorite writings about cube outside of the riptidelab paradigm. Then again, he referred to squadroning in a recent article, so maybe he hangs around here too.
Click to expand...


While we as cube designers don’t typically have the luxury of inventing cards specifically to push our favourite archetypes (one day, five-colour goats… one day…),
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Okay he's won me over :p
Also HA! SUCKERS! Custom cards for life :D
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I suspect we have a closet riptider ;)

There’s a good chance that for around 90% of the cards in your cube, you’ll be able to find a very similar replacement that costs one more mana in the same colour. The card may be a less powerful version of the same thing (Sensor Splicer instead of Master Splicer),
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Goats and splicers in the same article? Looks mighty suspicious to me.

Really good series though.
 
Tyrole

Tyrole

Chris Taylor said:
I always feel odd about the "Wrong Signals" cards, since that's really unfair to coralhelm commander.
I love Blood-Chin Rager as a serviceable creature on his own that will buff the odd white 1 drop and mutavault. Is there a warrior "deck" in my cube? No, same way there is't a merfolk deck in your cube nor a Spirit/Arcane theme 99% of cubes that run Kodama's Reach
Click to expand...

I agree to a certain extent, as long as the misleading signal cards are exceptions and not the rule. Being able to signal archetypes via build-around-me cards seems like a really fun way to draft. And I didn't cut Corallhelm, since he's needed in that slot. Plus he keeps me perfectly positioned for a sweet Merfolk Tribal Package, which should be ready any time now...
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Tyrole said:
I agree to a certain extent, as long as the misleading signal cards are exceptions and not the rule. Being able to signal archetypes via build-around-me cards seems like a really fun way to draft. And I didn't cut Corallhelm, since he's needed in that slot. Plus he keeps me perfectly positioned for a sweet Merfolk Tribal Package, which should be ready any time now...
Click to expand...

Exception and not the rule is a good way of putting it actually. I feel like my drafters can tell the difference between Blasting Station and Blood-Chin Rager in terms of how archetype bound they are, but it's worth considering what happens if they can't
 
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