Sets AEther Revolt Spoilers
- Thread starter Chris Taylor
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yes, though the analysis might be being a bit occluded because Mystic confluence is not the card it should be being compared to.
The ceiling I think most people will run into with Baral's Expertise is that its essentially a super man-o'-war disguised as a spell. The question should be whether you are ok with a triple bounce into an ETB four drop for 5 mana.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Sea God's Revenge was super powerful in Theros limited is you had any kind of board presence, but I haven't tried that card out in cube so it's hard to predict how Baral's Expertise will play out. I do know that Expertise is a mana cheaper and has a rider that's much better than Scry 1, so it's much easier to gain an enormous mana advantage over your opponent. I'm going to try the card out a bit, but I fear it's too much. I would have loved it if it had simply bounced two nonland permanents, that would have been great at five mana.
Baral's Expertise is probably going to be broken but I really want to build a deck around it.
The expertise cards I feel will function like the untap cards (Treachery, etc) from a tempo perspective, but with an added bit of versatility at least in the case of the blue one (since you can replay something you bounce for more ETB abuse). Honestly, my feeling is it will be better than the blue confluence (which means it probably won't last long in most cubes here).
Here's the thing though. Biggest problem I have found with Ux tempo decks is once you get behind you often have a very hard time recovering. Enter this card which undoes your opponent's board (like the confluence) and gets you a 4 drop in play (something you aren't getting with mystic confluence). Not sure you can ask for more at 5 mana really.
This is the blue plow under.
The expertise cards I feel will function like the untap cards (Treachery, etc) from a tempo perspective, but with an added bit of versatility at least in the case of the blue one (since you can replay something you bounce for more ETB abuse). Honestly, my feeling is it will be better than the blue confluence (which means it probably won't last long in most cubes here).
Here's the thing though. Biggest problem I have found with Ux tempo decks is once you get behind you often have a very hard time recovering. Enter this card which undoes your opponent's board (like the confluence) and gets you a 4 drop in play (something you aren't getting with mystic confluence). Not sure you can ask for more at 5 mana really.
This is the blue plow under.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, that's basically what I'm afraid of. I think the untap cards are a bit better, Treachery in particular, because you get back all of the mana you spent, or more with lands that produce more than one mana, and you get to be a bit more flexible with that mana. You can keep it open for counterspells for example. That said, yeah. Wow. Baral's Expertise still looks nuts. I'm excited to try the red and green one though.
Oh yeah. Treachery is the best untap card by far (and better than Baral's Expertise IMO), but I cited it due to cost equivalency.
The green one looks good but I fear it might be win more. You need board presence for it to be good and 6 mana (pretty late in the game). I don't know. Ux seems a lot better positioned for this type of effect than Gx, but maybe I'm wrong there (it could be exactly what Simic wants?).
Red one might not be enough value. Threaten effects are pretty conditional. Getting to cast a two drop for free after? And paying RR upfront? I don't know. I'm skeptical but happy to be proven wrong. I dig the expertise mechanic quite a lot.
The green one looks good but I fear it might be win more. You need board presence for it to be good and 6 mana (pretty late in the game). I don't know. Ux seems a lot better positioned for this type of effect than Gx, but maybe I'm wrong there (it could be exactly what Simic wants?).
Red one might not be enough value. Threaten effects are pretty conditional. Getting to cast a two drop for free after? And paying RR upfront? I don't know. I'm skeptical but happy to be proven wrong. I dig the expertise mechanic quite a lot.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Half the reason I'm okay with the threaten one is how often threaten is a lategame play anyways, making the free 2 drop less insane since you might have had the mana anyways
I feel like if we didn't get Yahenni in this set, I'd totally run this, but Yahenni is everything I've been looking for for a 3CC sac-effect-plus-grind-engine.
dont know if want
Whatever the case may be, two direct upgrades (imo) to nantuko husk in one set. Set's crazy.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Am I missing something with Yahenni? Indestructibility is fine but worse than Cartel Aristocrat's ability a lot of the time. If you're setting up a Blasphemous Act or something it can be sweet but I'd wager Husk is more threatening in general.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Maybe he thinks Yahenni grows when your own creatures die?
no, I do know they don't grow with your creatures. I also do know that your opponents creatures will die at some point in a majority of games, so a steadily growing/hard to remove threat is extremely good. Even just pointing a Murder the next turn puts them in a P/T range where they'll start becoming an Abyss really quickly. And since it doesn't have to to be creatures they block/got blocked by, going wide is an even more powerful strategy here, providing pressure and sacrifice fodder. Also not multicolor and won't drop auras in awkward situations/be everything bad that we dislike about protection.
I love the card.
I love the card.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
And haste aint nothing
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yahanni is important because it fills a significant gap in the card population: the first great unlimited sacrifice outlet since goblin bombardment.
Everything else has either had some limiting rider attached (tap, spend mana etc.) or been draft tech that slots awkwardly into a contemporary rare/mythic based formats. Yahanni has none of these problems.
Everything else has either had some limiting rider attached (tap, spend mana etc.) or been draft tech that slots awkwardly into a contemporary rare/mythic based formats. Yahanni has none of these problems.
huge upgrade to cartel aristocrat which was good
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Tested a bit.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is awesome, especially with Bloodsoaked Champion and Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat! Guy is a nightmare for red and green decks though.
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner was cool, plays very different from Dark Confidant, despite the same stats. Siphoner is, predictably, more aggressive, which I like.
Tezzeret the Schemer is much more palatable than Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas imho, but still very strong. If you have a decent number of artifacts, that -2 can slaughter your opponent's board. The difference is that old Tezz only needed one artifact to slaughter your opponent, because 5/5's are kinda lethal. Oh, and there's the card advantage and random game ending Drain Life too.
Hidden Stockpile was a pleasant surprise. I played it off a Marsh Flats (one token), then paid the alternative cost on a Mistvein Borderpost the next turn (another token), then realized this card is very fun to play with. This card is ridiculously good at creating Blood Artist fodder as well!
Greenbelt Rampager I drafted with two Experiment Ones and a Gyre Sage. That was some sweet value
Maulfist Revolutionary is a solid addition to energy and +1/+1 counter themes.
Renegade Rallier was harder to trigger in my deck than expected, because I didn't manage to pick up any fetches. Still did some fun things (like sac a Qasali Pridemage to kill an opposing enchanment, get back the Pridemage). Card has potential.
Rishkar, Peema Renegade is super good. And fun. Green beef / mana ramp / counter theme support.
Unbridled Growth is suprisingly cool. Didn't get to draft it in a delerium deck yet, but I did get to combo it with revolt, and it's pretty sweet that you get to cash in that card whenever you feel like it and support both those keywords whenever you need.
Monstrous Onslaught is an onslaught indeed, if you get to blow up the world for 6+. That was harder to do than I expected, but the card is still a certified bomb. It's been a while since green had an uncommon one-sided wrath at five mana... o_O
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is awesome, especially with Bloodsoaked Champion and Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat! Guy is a nightmare for red and green decks though.
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner was cool, plays very different from Dark Confidant, despite the same stats. Siphoner is, predictably, more aggressive, which I like.
Tezzeret the Schemer is much more palatable than Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas imho, but still very strong. If you have a decent number of artifacts, that -2 can slaughter your opponent's board. The difference is that old Tezz only needed one artifact to slaughter your opponent, because 5/5's are kinda lethal. Oh, and there's the card advantage and random game ending Drain Life too.
Hidden Stockpile was a pleasant surprise. I played it off a Marsh Flats (one token), then paid the alternative cost on a Mistvein Borderpost the next turn (another token), then realized this card is very fun to play with. This card is ridiculously good at creating Blood Artist fodder as well!
Greenbelt Rampager I drafted with two Experiment Ones and a Gyre Sage. That was some sweet value
Maulfist Revolutionary is a solid addition to energy and +1/+1 counter themes.
Renegade Rallier was harder to trigger in my deck than expected, because I didn't manage to pick up any fetches. Still did some fun things (like sac a Qasali Pridemage to kill an opposing enchanment, get back the Pridemage). Card has potential.
Rishkar, Peema Renegade is super good. And fun. Green beef / mana ramp / counter theme support.
Unbridled Growth is suprisingly cool. Didn't get to draft it in a delerium deck yet, but I did get to combo it with revolt, and it's pretty sweet that you get to cash in that card whenever you feel like it and support both those keywords whenever you need.
Monstrous Onslaught is an onslaught indeed, if you get to blow up the world for 6+. That was harder to do than I expected, but the card is still a certified bomb. It's been a while since green had an uncommon one-sided wrath at five mana... o_O
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
More notes!
Pacification Array is much better than I thought. I swapped it in over Icy Manipulator to try it out, and I think it will keep its spot. Keeping open two mana is definitely an issue in the mid game, but Array shines in the early game. I found it to be a much better pick than Manipulator for slower decks, simply because it gives you something to do on turn 1, and because you can activate it from turn 2 onwards, meaning you take less damage before you are able to stabilize. In the mid and late game it costs less mana to play and activate on the same turn, which is also a bonus.
Skyship Plunderer is a keeper. I've always been a fan of Thrummingbird, even doubling up on it, so anything resembling the bird horror is worth looking at. The Plunderer is obviously less explosive, but the baseline is much better. Basically your trading the ability to really abuse counters for a body that you actively want to run in any random blue draft deck. I'm a fan!
Baral's Expertise has been less of a blowout than I expected so far, maybe because five mana is really the upper end in my cubes as far as converted mana cost goes, and counterspells don't like to be cast for free off a sorcery, so I often didn't have a good target . I've also dialed down the amount of etb effects, so you're less likely to have a good target of yourself present to bounce and replay for value. Still, bounce three definitely turns the tables, it's just been closer to Sea God's Revenge than Mystic Confluence so far is all.
Rishkar's Expertise on the other hand... My oh my is this a spell. I have cast this for 3 cards and had it feel powerful. I have also cast this for 6 cards and had it feel downright unfair. I have even cast it for 9 one time, cast a bacon-saving Monstrous Onslaught as the free spell, and thus effectively cast almost three Ancestral Recalls for one green mana. My lord can this thing swing a game, it's like Season's Past on steroids! I think it quite likely that this is the best Expertise of the bunch by a mile. I might even cut this for being too good if it keeps performing like this.
Daredevil Dragster feels a lot fairer than Renegade Freighter. I like this one a lot. Hits for a decent amount, provides some card advantage to colors that normally lack it, neat!
Pacification Array is much better than I thought. I swapped it in over Icy Manipulator to try it out, and I think it will keep its spot. Keeping open two mana is definitely an issue in the mid game, but Array shines in the early game. I found it to be a much better pick than Manipulator for slower decks, simply because it gives you something to do on turn 1, and because you can activate it from turn 2 onwards, meaning you take less damage before you are able to stabilize. In the mid and late game it costs less mana to play and activate on the same turn, which is also a bonus.
Skyship Plunderer is a keeper. I've always been a fan of Thrummingbird, even doubling up on it, so anything resembling the bird horror is worth looking at. The Plunderer is obviously less explosive, but the baseline is much better. Basically your trading the ability to really abuse counters for a body that you actively want to run in any random blue draft deck. I'm a fan!
Baral's Expertise has been less of a blowout than I expected so far, maybe because five mana is really the upper end in my cubes as far as converted mana cost goes, and counterspells don't like to be cast for free off a sorcery, so I often didn't have a good target . I've also dialed down the amount of etb effects, so you're less likely to have a good target of yourself present to bounce and replay for value. Still, bounce three definitely turns the tables, it's just been closer to Sea God's Revenge than Mystic Confluence so far is all.
Rishkar's Expertise on the other hand... My oh my is this a spell. I have cast this for 3 cards and had it feel powerful. I have also cast this for 6 cards and had it feel downright unfair. I have even cast it for 9 one time, cast a bacon-saving Monstrous Onslaught as the free spell, and thus effectively cast almost three Ancestral Recalls for one green mana. My lord can this thing swing a game, it's like Season's Past on steroids! I think it quite likely that this is the best Expertise of the bunch by a mile. I might even cut this for being too good if it keeps performing like this.
Daredevil Dragster feels a lot fairer than Renegade Freighter. I like this one a lot. Hits for a decent amount, provides some card advantage to colors that normally lack it, neat!
Thanks for the feedback on Risker's Expertise. I think I'm adding that one to my preorder list.
My first thought is it was win more, but maybe it's just what green decks are looking to do (drop a bunch of dudes and then refill their hands). I've been thinking of it as win-more when it's maybe more about refueling to maintain the lead. In a way, this card seems very similar to Treasure Cruise. Late game, it's basically Ancestral Recall.
My first thought is it was win more, but maybe it's just what green decks are looking to do (drop a bunch of dudes and then refill their hands). I've been thinking of it as win-more when it's maybe more about refueling to maintain the lead. In a way, this card seems very similar to Treasure Cruise. Late game, it's basically Ancestral Recall.
Is it just me, or does this set feel light to anyone else? I'm only interested in a small handful of cards, compared to the last three sets where I had over 20 cards I wanted to include each. Maybe I'm just unenthusiastic, because no one wants to play with my cube anymore.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It certainly is win more in some scenario's, but it gives green an unprecedented amount of digging power when you're desperately looking for an answer to something your opponent did, and it completely breaks open the game when you're in any sort of board stall.
I think it's just you, sorry
I've got 25 swaps lined up for my cube. I mean, that's not nearly as much as Kaladesh, but that set was ridiculous for my cube, inspiring the adoption of a new color wheel and supporting multiple themes, energy being one of them. As a result there's 84 Kaladesh cards in my cube currently, but six of them are slated for an Aether Revolt update.It certainly is win more in some scenario's, but it gives green an unprecedented amount of digging power when you're desperately looking for an answer to something your opponent did, and it completely breaks open the game when you're in any sort of board stall.
I think it's just you, sorry
Well, there's the difference. I'm not supporting energy 'cause I feel like you have to go whole hog on it and it'll end up dominating the cube. Also, I don't really like vehicles, so I'm not including any of those. I kind of have to comb over what's left to try to find something interesting.
That's kind of the problem with parasitic mechanics like energy. If they aren't supported fully, there's not much to be taken from the sets that have said parasitic mechanics. Most of the mythics in Aether revolt have the problem of needing energy synergy to fully realize their potential. Ghonti's Aether Heart, the lizard-thing, and ESPECIALLY the double combat phase thing. All bleh if you don't have energy support.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
There's a fun parallel world in which energy has been evergreen since Alpha
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
None of those are includes for my cube. Instead the energy cards that (mostly) work on their own are includes. Stuff like Aether Chaser is brilliant. It's a 2/1 first strike for
, which is already above average in the color, and it makes a 1/1 when it attacks for the first time. Of course these cards get better with multiple instances of energy, but even on their own they're playable or even good.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I've also only been including energy cards that are self sufficient, and I actively purged the few I'd included since kaladesh like Servant of the Conduit and Thriving Grubs just for simplicity's sake.
These are all perfectly self sufficient cards (Individual power level notwithstanding)
Okay maybe consulate turret feels like it belongs in fallen empires on it's own, but who cares. This is about 2/3 of the cards that even involve energy in the set
Of the above I'm adding these:
And Maybe
In terms of more actual playtest data:
I am continuously reminded of how narrow the useage on stifle actually is. It didn't help this was right next to dissolve in a pack, but still I think the only good things to hit with the latter modes are fetchlands (Oh goody blue stone rain. It's not even that overpowered, it just feels bad) and birthing pod (Disallow doing it's best chainer's edict impersonation. Whoo Hoo -_-)
This card however feels like a lovely little spin on Tragic Slip (funny how similar they are in art and concept actually), with a higher floor in exchange for a lower ceiling. There's very few creatures for which this is actually going to be more powerful than shock is (mostly tokens and the odd exception with cards like tarmogoyf, or student of warfare after a while) so I don't actually feel the base level killspell is overpowered.
As well, cmc 4 is broad enough that it will basically always find a target (barring the extreme "I only run one win condition" type control decks my cube is essentially incapable of producing), but narrow enough that it still misses even important top end creatures from aggro decks like Thundermaw Hellkite or Cloudgoat Ranger. I could even be convinced to double up on it, but I think the comparison invited by running a single copy of it and tragic slip has some more interesting play to it.
Super Smash Brother Baral is alright, but (perhaps it's my cube) a lot of control decks can't rely on JUST counterspells these days, so the looting is very underpronounced. However, he's quite nice for either accelerating out a wrath or being played on turn 3 and then one mana'ing a doom blade at something, which feels nice and clever. I feel like a lot of aggro decks tend to have 3/2's for 2, so his body is alright but not quite an actuall solid blocker like say, thing in the ice can be.
This creature is solid. He saw play in a BW aggressive deck today alongside the next card, never got a +1/+1 counter, and was still a very effective creature. I'd highly recommend him, given how average tonight's use case was and how well he performed in it.
This card is...interesting. My initial comments on it as both a sac outlet and a reward for having a sac outlet stand, but it does seem to have a lot of fiddly little things happening. I will say thank god it only triggers on your end step, so that blocking with the token doesn't net them another token almost immediately a la Ophiomancer, making attacking into the card a pain.
However, played on turn 2 with a carrion feeder in play (which I then killed), the next few turns were spent dedicating a mana to this enchantment, sac'ing the servo, scrying a card to the top, and passing. Even if the player had actually been improving their draw, that's still like 5 additional individual game actions each turn, and a resultant 10-15 minutes of their life they're not getting back
Something to think about anyways.
These are all perfectly self sufficient cards (Individual power level notwithstanding)
Okay maybe consulate turret feels like it belongs in fallen empires on it's own, but who cares. This is about 2/3 of the cards that even involve energy in the set
Of the above I'm adding these:
In terms of more actual playtest data:
I am continuously reminded of how narrow the useage on stifle actually is. It didn't help this was right next to dissolve in a pack, but still I think the only good things to hit with the latter modes are fetchlands (Oh goody blue stone rain. It's not even that overpowered, it just feels bad) and birthing pod (Disallow doing it's best chainer's edict impersonation. Whoo Hoo -_-)
This card however feels like a lovely little spin on Tragic Slip (funny how similar they are in art and concept actually), with a higher floor in exchange for a lower ceiling. There's very few creatures for which this is actually going to be more powerful than shock is (mostly tokens and the odd exception with cards like tarmogoyf, or student of warfare after a while) so I don't actually feel the base level killspell is overpowered.
As well, cmc 4 is broad enough that it will basically always find a target (barring the extreme "I only run one win condition" type control decks my cube is essentially incapable of producing), but narrow enough that it still misses even important top end creatures from aggro decks like Thundermaw Hellkite or Cloudgoat Ranger. I could even be convinced to double up on it, but I think the comparison invited by running a single copy of it and tragic slip has some more interesting play to it.
Super Smash Brother Baral is alright, but (perhaps it's my cube) a lot of control decks can't rely on JUST counterspells these days, so the looting is very underpronounced. However, he's quite nice for either accelerating out a wrath or being played on turn 3 and then one mana'ing a doom blade at something, which feels nice and clever. I feel like a lot of aggro decks tend to have 3/2's for 2, so his body is alright but not quite an actuall solid blocker like say, thing in the ice can be.
This creature is solid. He saw play in a BW aggressive deck today alongside the next card, never got a +1/+1 counter, and was still a very effective creature. I'd highly recommend him, given how average tonight's use case was and how well he performed in it.
This card is...interesting. My initial comments on it as both a sac outlet and a reward for having a sac outlet stand, but it does seem to have a lot of fiddly little things happening. I will say thank god it only triggers on your end step, so that blocking with the token doesn't net them another token almost immediately a la Ophiomancer, making attacking into the card a pain.
However, played on turn 2 with a carrion feeder in play (which I then killed), the next few turns were spent dedicating a mana to this enchantment, sac'ing the servo, scrying a card to the top, and passing. Even if the player had actually been improving their draw, that's still like 5 additional individual game actions each turn, and a resultant 10-15 minutes of their life they're not getting back
Something to think about anyways.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
In terms of more actual playtest data:
I am continuously reminded of how narrow the useage on stifle actually is. It didn't help this was right next to dissolve in a pack, but still I think the only good things to hit with the latter modes are fetchlands (Oh goody blue stone rain. It's not even that overpowered, it just feels bad) and birthing pod (Disallow doing it's best chainer's edict impersonation. Whoo Hoo -_-)
Yeah, I tested this card a bunch as well, and I have to agree, especially because a lot of the triggered abilities you want to counter are etb effects, so most of the time you're better off using it as a
And let's be honest, no one here is running Cancel (meaning someone probably is). I can think of a few interactions that you might want to counter though, so I'm still willing to try it out, but I'm not going to preorder it at its current price. Anyway, the Stifle part matters in my cube with...
Reveillark's leaves the battlefield trigger. Denying your opponent two creatures seems like a good use of three mana and a card.
Smokestack with more than one counter on it. This seems like a sweet place to turn the tables on your opponent.
Mindslaver activation. You don't need to keep up the countermana when you know they've got this, as you can always counter the activation.
Flip cards, like Extricator of Sin, Docent of Perfection, and Huntmaster of the Fells. Some of the flips are really painful, and staving off the flip for a turn can make a difference.
Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat/Marionette Master boards with a sweeper in hand. This costs some mana (more in my cube because I don't run true wraths below five mana), but it can be the difference between life and death.
Planeswalker activations, especially ultimates.
I think that's about it.