Also I should've probably noted that I don't mind people criticizing modern design just that it's not NWO that is entirely at fault. I just think it's brilliant to just start being more mindful about not overloading the cards you'll see with a bunch of text and complexity. Like, lightning bolt is super powerful, its just a one straight forward sentence. Oubliette is probably one of the worst worded cards ever and it's super boring, so there, it's like a really minute detail but I think its worth pointing out. Magic is fun and tricky enough as it is I feel, it's great that they're trying to make their designs a bit more neat and sleak.
General Decks that have 3-0'd your cube
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I don't want to get into gender discussions. They tend to get as bad as facebook discrimination discussions. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I waste a lot of time discussing that stuff on other sites. I come here for cube. It should be common knowledge that there's a lot of shitty people playing magic. I think I've made it pretty clear that I despise the fat, elitist, arrogant, mediocre, mid-30s, anti-social, sexist, racist, smelly, value-scalping, shallow and pathetic various traits of half of all MtG players. In fact, make that my custom command. Choose any three of those traits. Then deal damage equal to how repulsive that person is to said person multiplied by two. Can't be countered by spells or abilities. Mana cost? Two.
Now on to a more relevant note, I think 5 color OmniThragDoorFireBolasthingy was possibly the last interesting deck I've seen in standard. People can argue devotion is equally goofy but I've seen a million mana before. What I haven't seen is a whole standard deck being cast in one turn without a storm card to be seen, & that's sweet.
Now on to a more relevant note, I think 5 color OmniThragDoorFireBolasthingy was possibly the last interesting deck I've seen in standard. People can argue devotion is equally goofy but I've seen a million mana before. What I haven't seen is a whole standard deck being cast in one turn without a storm card to be seen, & that's sweet.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Dude, everyone knows the path to a woman's heart is to condescend her, then appear incompetent at the very thing you were condescending her about!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
There was a comment made on the mana drain a little while ago that I thought was interesting. The Atog Lord (Rich Shay of VSL fame) was talking about spell power creep, and how its no longer a given that cards like yawgmoth's will and tinker will make a vintage deck. This is because of recent powerful spell printings like treasure cruise, dig through time, and mental misstep changing the metagame.
And that observation is a big part of the problem that I have with the "NWO is ruining magic" argument: its based on a stereotype.
Wizards has gotten to a point where there are creatures that can compete with the strongest of magic's oldest spells (young pyromancer, delver of secrets, monastery mentor) and at the same time we have this new breed of powerful spells. Yet you'll still see people claiming that "WOTC hates spells and loves creatures" during the same era of a delve ancestral recall printed at common. It just looks suspiciously like cherry picking to confirm to one's prejudices (manasplaning
if you will), and it shouldn't come as a surprise when those inconsistencies are pointed out.
And that observation is a big part of the problem that I have with the "NWO is ruining magic" argument: its based on a stereotype.
Wizards has gotten to a point where there are creatures that can compete with the strongest of magic's oldest spells (young pyromancer, delver of secrets, monastery mentor) and at the same time we have this new breed of powerful spells. Yet you'll still see people claiming that "WOTC hates spells and loves creatures" during the same era of a delve ancestral recall printed at common. It just looks suspiciously like cherry picking to confirm to one's prejudices (manasplaning
if you will), and it shouldn't come as a surprise when those inconsistencies are pointed out.
PRUF OV POWAH KREEP: Honestly, how did treasure cruise ever get printed at common & not require a delve cost of twenty?
EDIT: o yea itz not a instant...
EDIT: o yea itz not a instant...
CML
Contributor
jesus. i pretty much never see this at the shops i attend so it's easy to forget it's the status quo pretty much everywhere else.
what if you visions of beyond off a shelldock
How's logic knot?
The guy who won was raving about it, and how it's essentially Counterspell in the late game. Turns out some of those old, forgotten delve cards are pretty decent!
Dualcaster Mage is a complete turd, though. He's coming out in the next update.
Dualcaster Mage is a complete turd, though. He's coming out in the next update.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Sweet deck, that delver looks really bad, though.
The fact that he would run Purphoros in a light creature deck (and it was probably ok in it) further reinforces my perception that its just a stupid card.
The fact that he would run Purphoros in a light creature deck (and it was probably ok in it) further reinforces my perception that its just a stupid card.
Sounds like a record I'll buy for £0.10 in five years.
i can't tell if this is a eurozone joke or you just get really good deals on records
Dom Harvey
Contributor
>implying Britain is in the Eurozone
I mean I'll find it in the basement of a record shop where they have all the crap they're just trying to get rid of. A few years ago my record shop was trying to get rid of a huge amount of stock and had rooms full of £0.10 records. I bought loads of that stuff, and most of it turned out to be completely terrible. It was actually quite a depressing experience. I was trying to get into sampling, but it was all dance music and completely useless.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I always go by the album cover when leafing through bargain bins. Discovered (ha! dis-cover-ed!) some really nice music that way!
I used to do that but I ended up listening through so much bad music that it was really getting me down. I bought a battery-powered turntable and now I take that if I go for a dig. It's much better this way!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That's a neat trick. I used to bring my discman to a Dutch festival I used to visit. The music boots were often more fun than the festival itself. It's as if you're sifting through a treasure trove of forgotten records, some of which are really excellent
Nowadays I use Discover on Spotify, which also works, but isn't nearly as gratifying. I'm still pumped when I discover a gorgeous album this way, but there's something about holding an album in your hand that can never be replaced by streaming music.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Back on the old vs new train, I'm actually curious about how many of the spells in my cube are oldies and how many are recent. (My cube is not a perfect sample, and I'm approximating customs where I can)
White is mostly new with the exception of Swords to Plowshares I'm going to count Path to Exile as well, since it's deliberately aping it.
Wrath of God/Day of Judgment are essentially old cards for the same reason. I'd say Pacifism has persisted throughout the ages, even if it's called Journey to Nowhere in your cube.
Unexpectedly Absent, Oblivion Ring, Hallowed Burial, Emerge Unscathed, Spear of Heliod and Literally every planeswalker are all new though.
Blue is all old though. Brainstorm, Mana Leak, Counterspell, Miscalculation, Ray of Command, Daze, Force Spike, Control Magic, the list goes on.
New cards are walkers, Treasure Cruise, Vapor Snag, Distortion Strike, and Cryptic Command.
Remand is in a weird spot. It's technically new (It's in modern after all) but it's so deliberately like memory lapse it seems old to me.
Black is actually pretty evenly balanced: Demonic Tutor, Hymn to Tourach, Damnation, Necromancy, Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Reclamation and Unearth are all stalwarts, but Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Murderous cut/Tragic Slip (Remember, terror was the exception back in the day, things were mostly dark banishing and weakness), Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek, Hero's Downfall and Profane Command are all new (Coercion is from mirage, but Duress is the first good selective discard spell, and duress is problematic in modern magic, which is illustrated by my use of the more card type agnostic varieties you see above, of which thoughtseize is the first good one)
Red is...weird. Red's identity is so solid and unchanging in terms of limited that 90% of the cards feel both old and new at the same time. Lightning Bolt was in Alpha and M11, Arc Lightning is currently in standard but was originally from Urza's Saga, and is hardly the first instance of dividable burn (Fireball is in Beta).
Faithless Looting is a new red thing, but the cards emulating the "chandra draw" actually started from Elkin Bottle, which is hella old. I'd consider this effect new though.
Wildfire on the other hand basically can't be printed again, and Molten Rain is coming back to standard like ancestral recall is.
Technically, all my threaten effects are a "new" thing. As mentioned above, Ray of Command shows us this effect was normally blue (see Disenchant > Naturalize)
My Green spells suck, but here's the breakdown:
Old: Rancor, Mirri's Guile, Wild Growth, Survival of the Fittest
New: Many Garruks, Farseek, Cultivate, Birthing Pod, and Curse of Predation. Oh and Bow of Nylea
It's worth noting that most of the blue spells I run are either mistakes or "Never Coming Back"TM like mana leak/counterspell/ray of command/control magic etc where White/Red don't have that problem at all, and Green/Black have a few exceptions like Hymn, Survival, Pod etc.
I'm not sure how true the conception that spells used to be better is. I'll freely admit that creatures are better now than they were in early magic, but that was in the back of everyone's mind when they were trying to figure out how good goyf was and explicit when they printed baneslayer.
Certain effects have gotten better and some have gotten worse. Removal (other than swords to plowshares) has gotten better on the whole, but people don't notice that because it's lost it's pace with creatures (for good reason, FWIW. The difference between Terror and Go for the throat is large, but the difference between Pearled Unicorn and Blade Splicer is way WAY larger, and magic has been way more fun that those two fields are somewhat equal)
Counterspells and Land Destruction have gotten worse because they feel bad, or are too strong, which I certainly understand. I'm generally in agreement that Stone Rain is a bit too cheap and that Cancel is a bit too expensive. I'm not so sure mana leak is too strong for standard, (I feel it might be in this environment since most of the removal is 3cc) and I wouldn't fault them for wanting to take a break from that effect.
What about you guys?
White is mostly new with the exception of Swords to Plowshares I'm going to count Path to Exile as well, since it's deliberately aping it.
Wrath of God/Day of Judgment are essentially old cards for the same reason. I'd say Pacifism has persisted throughout the ages, even if it's called Journey to Nowhere in your cube.
Unexpectedly Absent, Oblivion Ring, Hallowed Burial, Emerge Unscathed, Spear of Heliod and Literally every planeswalker are all new though.
Blue is all old though. Brainstorm, Mana Leak, Counterspell, Miscalculation, Ray of Command, Daze, Force Spike, Control Magic, the list goes on.
New cards are walkers, Treasure Cruise, Vapor Snag, Distortion Strike, and Cryptic Command.
Remand is in a weird spot. It's technically new (It's in modern after all) but it's so deliberately like memory lapse it seems old to me.
Black is actually pretty evenly balanced: Demonic Tutor, Hymn to Tourach, Damnation, Necromancy, Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Reclamation and Unearth are all stalwarts, but Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Murderous cut/Tragic Slip (Remember, terror was the exception back in the day, things were mostly dark banishing and weakness), Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek, Hero's Downfall and Profane Command are all new (Coercion is from mirage, but Duress is the first good selective discard spell, and duress is problematic in modern magic, which is illustrated by my use of the more card type agnostic varieties you see above, of which thoughtseize is the first good one)
Red is...weird. Red's identity is so solid and unchanging in terms of limited that 90% of the cards feel both old and new at the same time. Lightning Bolt was in Alpha and M11, Arc Lightning is currently in standard but was originally from Urza's Saga, and is hardly the first instance of dividable burn (Fireball is in Beta).
Faithless Looting is a new red thing, but the cards emulating the "chandra draw" actually started from Elkin Bottle, which is hella old. I'd consider this effect new though.
Wildfire on the other hand basically can't be printed again, and Molten Rain is coming back to standard like ancestral recall is.
Technically, all my threaten effects are a "new" thing. As mentioned above, Ray of Command shows us this effect was normally blue (see Disenchant > Naturalize)
My Green spells suck, but here's the breakdown:
Old: Rancor, Mirri's Guile, Wild Growth, Survival of the Fittest
New: Many Garruks, Farseek, Cultivate, Birthing Pod, and Curse of Predation. Oh and Bow of Nylea
It's worth noting that most of the blue spells I run are either mistakes or "Never Coming Back"TM like mana leak/counterspell/ray of command/control magic etc where White/Red don't have that problem at all, and Green/Black have a few exceptions like Hymn, Survival, Pod etc.
I'm not sure how true the conception that spells used to be better is. I'll freely admit that creatures are better now than they were in early magic, but that was in the back of everyone's mind when they were trying to figure out how good goyf was and explicit when they printed baneslayer.
Certain effects have gotten better and some have gotten worse. Removal (other than swords to plowshares) has gotten better on the whole, but people don't notice that because it's lost it's pace with creatures (for good reason, FWIW. The difference between Terror and Go for the throat is large, but the difference between Pearled Unicorn and Blade Splicer is way WAY larger, and magic has been way more fun that those two fields are somewhat equal)
Counterspells and Land Destruction have gotten worse because they feel bad, or are too strong, which I certainly understand. I'm generally in agreement that Stone Rain is a bit too cheap and that Cancel is a bit too expensive. I'm not so sure mana leak is too strong for standard, (I feel it might be in this environment since most of the removal is 3cc) and I wouldn't fault them for wanting to take a break from that effect.
What about you guys?
I'm not sure how fair this discussion is because I think ripcube design principles are very modern format oriented. Plus removal speed and tempo plays being reconditioned has been a more new trend even within the modern era, but of course that's not all I'm talking about. The context has also completely changed and old standbys like diabolic edict just don't have the heart for it in this world of so many deranged hermits and endless value guys etc.
I think limiting this discussion to "early magic" vs modern progress is also kinda poisonous. I think something like from invasion to 8th is an era of it's own and from mirrodin to lorwyn also constitutes a generation.
Also you'll note I tend to be very specific about what I talk about being privileged or undermined in sets, I'm not really the sort of person who talks about powercreep and nerfing out of both sides of my mouth without a lot of context.
I think limiting this discussion to "early magic" vs modern progress is also kinda poisonous. I think something like from invasion to 8th is an era of it's own and from mirrodin to lorwyn also constitutes a generation.
Also you'll note I tend to be very specific about what I talk about being privileged or undermined in sets, I'm not really the sort of person who talks about powercreep and nerfing out of both sides of my mouth without a lot of context.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah I'm trying to judge based on cards that really evoke Beta to Tempest Block and cards that really evoke like... Alara forward. Maybe lorewyn forward?
There's a huge chunk in the middle missing, but to me everything from like Invasion to Time Spiral doesn't particularly evoke either of those feelings, it's more on a card by card basis. Remand feels distinctively old while mortify feels distinctively new for example.
You've got a point about riptide cubes being a bit more modern design centric though. I'm remembering when I cubed with mana drain and recurring nightmare and brain freeze and it was a different environment entirely which might expand my feelings on blue (Either design mistakes or cards that won't be printed again) to more colors.
There's a huge chunk in the middle missing, but to me everything from like Invasion to Time Spiral doesn't particularly evoke either of those feelings, it's more on a card by card basis. Remand feels distinctively old while mortify feels distinctively new for example.
You've got a point about riptide cubes being a bit more modern design centric though. I'm remembering when I cubed with mana drain and recurring nightmare and brain freeze and it was a different environment entirely which might expand my feelings on blue (Either design mistakes or cards that won't be printed again) to more colors.
when maro is talking about old spells being more powerful i think in general the thought is cards like memory jar not mana leak lol but i guess that's open to interpretation
fwiw i would not be surprised if mana leak, counterspell, or control magic showed up in standard in the next 5 years
especially now with the faster rotation schedule coming up
fwiw i would not be surprised if mana leak, counterspell, or control magic showed up in standard in the next 5 years
especially now with the faster rotation schedule coming up
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah mana leak was recently printed, but it was also deemed "too powerful for standard" not too long ago, so I figure I'd give it the benefit of the doubt.
Counterspell in standard would be miserable, make no mistake. Mana leak was a strong card and you could play around mana leak, playing any deck against psychatog back in the day basically meant you could only care about your play since there was no back and forth about counterspell. It was a 2 mana card that was good early and insane late, and deals with every card type. That's flexibility that likely shouldn't be on a card so cheap.
Mana leak at least has a downside. It's strong, since the option of paying 3 extra in the late game is still pretty backbreaking, (7 mana hellrider? Still hard) but my gut tells me that it would just be strong like lightning bolt was strong (Ie something they should bring back now and again as a change of pace) rather than wrath of god strong (Ie something that should be removed now and again to show how much we miss it).
Control Magic? The effect of cards like Skinrender and Shriekmaw is so pronounced on tempo that they're insane cards, and now you want the threat you get on top of your sorcery removal spell to scale all the way up to Titans?
I know you can't assume everyone in standard is going to have creatues (Hell you're playing the control deck so there's at least the mirror) but if there's any reasonable ammout of creatures running around control magic is absolutely insane. There's a reason they've decided it costs 5 now.
current standard is a bit creature heavy, but just imagine the following turn sequence:
Aggro: Tapland, Go
Control: Tapland, Go
Aggro: Land, Seeker of the Way
Control, Land, Pass
A: Land, Hordeling Outburst, Swing
C: EoT Bile Blight the tokens. Tapland, pass
A: Land, Ashcloud Phoenix
C: Land, Control Magic
A: Land, Stormbreath Dragon
C: Land, Control Magic
So the board at the end of all that is
Control: 5 lands, 4/1 flying, 4/4 flying pro white, life total 13
Aggro: 5 lands, Life total 23
The aggro player is insanely behind on board and has about 3 turns to kill the control player who has about as many cards as they do. It's doesn't work on planeswalkers and a bit worse on creatures with haste/etb triggers, but that's not a good reason to say a card is fine.
I think the only way control magic isn't insane in standard is if:
1) We get all urza's block up in this bitch and creatures are just a thing of the past
2) It's basically the only good blue card
3) The format is legacy levels of fast (Think Wild Nacatls and Goyf as the average creature) so 4cc removal spells are too slow
control being unplayabale doesn't even cut it because any other blue deck would play a card this strong for the creature mirror (Or be point 1 above)