Sets [DTK] Dragons of Tarkir Spoilers Thread

[Chris Taylor]

i haven't seen anyone mention anything about this, idk, it could interact well w token and lifegain strats maybe or somethin

Lava Spike when you're winning, one with nothing when you're losing

Actually on the topic of card evaluations, the lastest The 3rd Power podcast has Marshel from Limited Resources on it (good listen) and he brings up quadrant theory at one point:

Essentially Consider how good a card is:

1. When you're developing
2. When you're behind on board
3. When you're ahead on board
4. When the board is even

Some of these quadrants are more important than others (Eg: Nothing with CMC 3+ is ever going to be good for #1, but that's okay unless we're playing legacy/vintage)
Something I'd never heard of before, but a cool way of explaining stuff like this

 

[Lucre]

I'm starting to think me and Onderzeeboot will disagree with each other, not for any intellectual reason, or any enmity, but out of some sort of some elemental, prehistoric truths buried deep within us and set deeply in opposition.

I really like how Secure the Wastes can fill my curve if I feel behind and I need to make use of instant mana. People don't really value how important it is for reactive decks to be using what little tempo they make effectively and not waste turns holding up counters or tricks that cannot be turned into something proactive at the drop of the hat (I think part of that is the reason there is so much love of shitty removal and counters in some cubes).

This card feels very good because of course it can save my ass while I try desperately to draw a wrath or stabilizer, but imagine I will get the most joy from this card in the same way I do from say holding a complicate and a clique up after having wrathed. Sort of like having the mana to activate my stalking stones, cast my condescend or inspiration + condescend if needs be. I'm just sad it can't block hero of oxid ridge lol.

Plus it basically fits in any deck that wants to splash white. I can totes see myself playing this as a top end in white weenie. Isn't that sweet?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm starting to think me and Onderzeeboot will disagree with each other, not for any intellectual reason, or any enmity, but out of some sort of some elemental, prehistoric truths buried deep within us and set deeply in opposition.

Haha, I was wondering the same thing. I can't really figure out why we're evaluating cards so wildly different. Maybe we favor and foster very different play styles and interactions in our cube or something? I mean, I get what you're saying about Secure the Wastes, but that still doesn't resonate with me. I don't really support the ol' passive blue-based control deck that does everything at instant speed in my cube, maybe that's one of the reasons?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

http://www.channelfireball.com/arti...utai-collected-company-and-dragons-of-tarkir/

Well, there you have it! 22 hittable creatures in a constructed deck are required for Collected Company at the very least! That translates to roughly 15 hittable creatures in limited, meaning that 15 of your 23 (24?) nonland cards should be creatures with cmc 3 or less. That sounds like a lot of low cmc creatures for a green-based limited deck. I don't know that Collected Company can be good with numbers like that.

 

[Chris Taylor]

http://www.channelfireball.com/arti...utai-collected-company-and-dragons-of-tarkir/

Well, there you have it! 22 hittable creatures in a constructed deck are required for Collected Company at the very least! That translates to roughly 15 hittable creatures in limited, meaning that 15 of your 23 (24?) nonland cards should be creatures with cmc 3 or less. That sounds like a lot of low cmc creatures for a green-based limited deck. I don't know that Collected Company can be good with numbers like that.

That seems pretty reasonable. I can't remember what the creature/noncreature numbers for the average aggro deck are off the top of my head, but I know the nut aggro decks in my cube usually have 3-4 cards at 4+ CMC, so Card should be alright.
I don't really think anyone wanted to splash for this in the super low count prowess decks anyways

 

[Dom Harvey]

I wouldn't say 'well there you have it!' at all. A recurring problem with these stats articles is that the authors speak as if, because their mathematical reasoning is sound, their interpretations of the data must be as well even though a lot of it it hand-waving (why is 22 the threshold?)

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I wouldn't say 'well there you have it!' at all. A recurring problem with these stats articles is that the authors speak as if, because their mathematical reasoning is sound, their interpretations of the data must be as well even though a lot of it it hand-waving (why is 22 the threshold?)

Of course it depends on the subjective boundaries the writer sets. However, I like his number (22/60 or ~15/40), as that's the number where you'll whiff 5% of the time, and flip over two (or more) creatures nearly 75% of the time. Those numbers seem reasonable to me as a floor. The average green deck in limited runs closer to 8-10 hittables I think, which makes the likelyhood of not hitting at all, or hitting only one creature, substantially larger.

I'm not saying Collected Company won't ever succeed, I just think it's not as good as other green creature tutors that are far more reliable.

 

[Eric Chan]

Those numbers seems to line up with the back-of-the-napkin scrawlings I did earlier. Personally, I'm not sure that 75% is high enough of a success rate to warrant a card slot and four mana, unless I was on the mono three-drop deck. Even at 18 creatures out of 40, and an 86% success rate, I'm a little underwhelmed.

I guess it comes down to each person's comfort level with whiffing - and how exactly you define a 'whiff' in the first place (is hitting one Llanowar Elves a miss? how about two?) - but this feels more and more to me like a constructed-only card.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Those numbers seems to line up with the back-of-the-napkin scrawlings I did earlier. Personally, I'm not sure that 75% is high enough of a success rate to warrant a card slot and four mana, unless I was on the mono three-drop deck. Even at 18 creatures out of 40, and an 86% success rate, I'm a little underwhelmed.

I guess it comes down to each person's comfort level with whiffing - and how exactly you define a 'whiff' in the first place (is hitting one Llanowar Elves a miss? how about two?) - but this feels more and more to me like a constructed-only card.

Hitting 2 lannowar elves:

 

[spicewitch]

Hmf. An as-fan of 0.62 dragons per booster in "TEH DARGRONS SET!" is pretty mealy. When you folks have drafted it, do the "goes great with a helping of Dagron" cards automatically go to the slush pile?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Kinda Depends

Slam it


Solid Pick


solid pick


Maybe leave this one on the sidelines

 

[Lucre]

Haha, I was wondering the same thing. I can't really figure out why we're evaluating cards so wildly different. Maybe we favor and foster very different play styles and interactions in our cube or something? I mean, I get what you're saying about Secure the Wastes, but that still doesn't resonate with me. I don't really support the ol' passive blue-based control deck that does everything at instant speed in my cube, maybe that's one of the reasons?

Thats sorta the point, this card makes those decks less passive. It's important for control decks to cultivate advantage or board position through trades or stopping advantageous attacks. Do you think I'm being passive while I'm playing my clique or thirst for knowledge when you have given me the nod to use my mana?

Sometimes I wonder if people think the difference between a midranged deck and a control deck is merely the wrath / draw spell density lol.

This card is also very good for players who want to make combat the gateway to surviving and creating advantage for successful mid and lategame strategies. Control decks and midranged decks need excellent blockers like these if you are de-emphasizing removal. Cannot stress enough how useful having a new too like this is. Baneslayer feels like a big dumb sledge hammer but this is a surprising lil multitool.

Also come on mana sinks are such a good reward to colours that don't get to draw cards on the regular.

 

[Lucre]

I really wish I could like my own posts guys.

 

[spicewitch]

I really wish I could like my own posts guys.

That is already clear when you make yourself "lol" by talking about how people are too stupid to realize X.

 

[Lucre]

That is already clear when you make yourself "lol" by talking about how people are too stupid to realize X.

Do I really come off as that arrogant and mean? I do sorta put on a character when I'm here! I just sorta assumed it was good for morale to have an ogre / wing nut around. If I'm getting too browbeaty tell me, lol.

I do get legitimately frustrated with you kittens sometimes, like when I have illustrated a relationship or like proposed a bunch of ideas and explained how to make them work and it gets ignored or adopted later, or the problem keeps being complained about despite my suggestions, but I assume that's mainly my fault for the way I present my thoughts and also has a lot to do with the fact these environments are highly personalized.

The other fact is due to certain disabilities of mine relating to working memory I usually sort of have to ramble to realize my point so I tend to over write and get into tangents if I do not allow myself a rough draft.

How often is Procession good enough guys? Anyone with a reasonably powerful cube have any luck with triplicate spirits or is it just 1 mana too expensive?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm starting to think me and Onderzeeboot will disagree with each other, not for any intellectual reason, or any enmity, but out of some sort of some elemental, prehistoric truths buried deep within us and set deeply in opposition.

I think its because you're an old school player that wants magic to be a game "revolving around seemingly-mundane resource allocation, attrition, and casting Pox," while Onderzeeboot whats a fantastical game of sweet fun plays.

Ok, maybe the pox thing is a lie (it would probably be remand) but from a none resource allocation/attrition perspective, secure the wastes looks like a giant snooze fest to play.

Basically, you two have been at war since ice age. :eek:

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

How often is Procession good enough guys? Anyone with a reasonably powerful cube have any luck with triplicate spirits or is it just 1 mana too expensive?

I gave some real thought as to why this particular card dosen't excite me. I think its because its a card that is probably taking a removal slot.

The appeal of secure the wastes is that its a draw-go card that can help you stay alive in the early/mid game, but can also be a win condition or big mana sink in the late game. It scales with where the control deck is in the game.

But I don't think it actually does that very well. If you are in the late game, a bunch of non-flying 1/1s aren't really great at closing out the game, and if you are in the early-mid game, its less effective than actual removal. So, its kind of lackluster at either point of the game.

Even worse, its taking a mult-color slot. One of the ways you can create definition in your removal (so the control decks have something wheel) is to run some multi-color spot removal. I would rather have that definition in the colored sections--to avoid the problem of just having boring 3 color control deck--but it seems like a disaster to run this over any other piece of instant speed removal in most cubes. Its bad enough if a control deck has to hope that cards like mortify wheel, but could you imagine having to pick a secure the wastes instead in that spot? That just seems terrible.

 

[Lucre]

I think its because you're an old school player that wants magic to be a game "revolving around seemingly-mundane resource allocation, attrition, and casting Pox," while Onderzeeboot whats a fantastical game of sweet fun plays.

Ok, maybe the pox thing is a lie (it would probably be remand) but from a none resource allocation/attrition perspective, secure the wastes looks like a giant snooze fest to play.

Basically, you two have been at war since ice age. :eek:

I have some really good memories of cycling Decree of Justice lol I mean it's so good at rewarding mana cultivation, I'm gonna be splashing for this in all kinds of green decks!

Hahahaha but I don't just bounce people's lands with my vensers, sometimes I go out of my way to create big stupid chain reaction plays. Hahaha you can ask Eric about how often I overreach myself trying to put Eternal Witness / Snapcaster Mage / Unburial Rites / Profane Command decks together.

This card is just full of tiny secret synergies and I am sooooo excited to play it and even more excited to collected company into zany lil combos. Just the fact that it's another playable white token generator has me a lil turnt. And you know I love creatures that feel like they have vigilance. Using this card on turn 3 to kill a 2/1 and have a 1/1 left over is gonna rule bros, because I'll know if I were to have drawn it later I could make like a million dorks.

Like, I love zany plays too, I am a big fan of synergy, and more often than not, when I'm cubing I'm usually drinking or in the throes of a huge meal, but when I'm talking about cube, and trying to help people make things work, or like enable the breadth of decks we get to play, I usually have to think of it in more cut and dry relationships, because at the end of the day, those sweet plays owe a lot of their sweetness to the context of resource and timing.

Omg guys have you ever Aether Mutation'd your Acidic Ooze guys? I swear I am not only about doomblades. Though I think I'm always gonna prefer the remands of the world to the fleecemane lions.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Thats sorta the point, this card makes those decks less passive. It's important for control decks to cultivate advantage or board position through trades or stopping advantageous attacks. Do you think I'm being passive while I'm playing my clique or thirst for knowledge when you have given me the nod to use my mana?

I use passive here as the equivalent of "end-of-turn mentality". I don't know if that's a false equivalency, but that's what I meant. I get the feeling your environment offers more draw-go incentives and pieces than mine, which would up the value of Secure the Wastes a bit. The control decks in my environment operate more at sorcery speed.

Sometimes I wonder if people think the difference between a midranged deck and a control deck is merely the wrath / draw spell density lol.

Really? That's your takeaway from my comments?

This card is also very good for players who want to make combat the gateway to surviving and creating advantage for successful mid and lategame strategies. Control decks and midranged decks need excellent blockers like these if you are de-emphasizing removal. Cannot stress enough how useful having a new too like this is. Baneslayer feels like a big dumb sledge hammer but this is a surprising lil multitool.

See, and here's where we differ in opinion. I don't think Secure the Wastes is an excellent blocker at all! It's a lousy blocker in fact! At two mana it's unplayable, at three mana it's a Grey Ogre split over two bodies, at four mana it's a Hill Giant split over three bodies. All of these scenario's don't excite me at all. The only benefit is that it's an instant, which means your opponent won't see the block coming (presumably). That means you might get to kill something with this, but not flyers, and not creatures with decent toughness or first strike.

Also come on mana sinks are such a good reward to colours that don't get to draw cards on the regular.

True, but that doesn't make every mana sink good. Where's Flaming Gambit in all of our cubes?

The appeal of secure the wastes is that its a draw-go card that can help you stay alive in the early/mid game, but can also be a win condition or big mana sink in the late game. It scales with where the control deck is in the game.

But I don't think it actually does that very well. If you are in the late game, a bunch of non-flying 1/1s aren't really great at closing out the game, and if you are in the early-mid game, its less effective than actual removal. So, its kind of lackluster at either point of the game.

I think this sums up my evaluation of Secure the Wastes perfectly. I realize what Lucre likes about it, but I look at both modes (early game roadblock, late game finisher) and think it's just not really good at either. Yes, the versatility is sweet, but versatility alone is not enough to make a card good.

 

[GenericZero]

Okay, to be fair, Flaming Gambit reads like a punisher spell. Personally, I like Secure the Wastes fwiw. The card seems fine & every color deserves a decent X spell.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Okay, to be fair, Flaming Gambit reads like a punisher spell. Personally, I like Secure the Wastes fwiw. The card seems fine & every color deserves a decent X spell.

Flaming Gambit isn't a punisher spell, it's Diabolic Edict...

 

[GenericZero]

Unless they have an indestructible creature, a big booty beast, or a boros reckoner. But then it isn't even worth casting....

Plus, they can always just take the damage if they have a good chunk of life.

 

[Lucre]

I think the element of surprise is key to this being a great blocker, but also the fact cube designers are much more likely to buy a creature on basis of it's power than it's toughness yes? Being able to kill one thing and chump another is also incredibly useful.

I don't really know why people don't think this will be a fine attacker. decks consistently able to make 5-6 tokens with spells have always gone into the next few turns with a huge upper hand, we cant forget this card is an instant and very capable of taking advantage of a lack of blockers to devestate a planeswalker or life total. I expect there will be many turns that I spend six mana on this to finish off a planeswalker with one blocker left hanging out. I've also lost tonnes of games I thought I'd win to a a top deck'd Supply / Demand or Decree of Justice or things like beacon of creation or symbol status.

Then you can't forget each token is an actual freaking card. The sort of thing that benefits from all the silly creature synergies people would care to play. Think how much better this card gets with your trumpet blasts guys! Your Blasting station just turned it into a plaguewind+. This card feeds delve, triggers spells matter garbage and lets you translate all your mana, or any of your mana to board position! It's sweet! So what if it's not good at blocking surrak on curve? I can block him for a million turns or I can just use my freaking journey to nowhere on that guy and use my tokens for something they are more suited to! They can freaking attack, and what are ya gonna do, not attack me so you can potentially take one of my stupid tokens a turn through blockin? Puuuuhlease.

Also I dunno if I talked about this yet but you know what encourages overexertion? Freakin any number of tokens. Gonna make a one card quagmire so you have to play your hand and then WHAM! Terminus Baby!

I'm a ramblin man! Anyway this card can fuck up an entire boardstate when you play it mid / late game and thats part of the reason I think it's a sweet blocka.

Also please Bootster, I gotta know more about what your control decks seem like because if you aint into reactive stuff like counterspells or eot removal and it's already very difficult for cube decks at any given time to be built around having removal in hand consistently I am having trouble differentiating a control deck from a midrange deck that plays a lil more card drawing and maybe two sweepers instead of one omg.

 

[Lucre]

Also the Flaming Gambit remark was kinda low and pretty glib amirite?
That card is essentially a very expensive searing blaze that you cannot target.

 

[safra]

yo Lucre what are your thoughts on Toshiro Umezawa

e: i love him but am worried because none of my drafters seem to. he's so much value though! casting doom blade to mana leak is exactly where i want to be in magic