General Blue creatures

[CML]

the above is a list of (mono-)blue creatures i have in my cube. there are not very many of them and i am wondering if this is because the section is tight or because i am missing out on some sweet dudes.

i should also bring up the whole "creature vs. spell" balance in cubes in general, i've been moving closer to a 50-50 split lately after being as uneven as 54-46 and i think the games have been more interactive and interesting as a result. blue doesn't really have much room for dudes when you add in the quad Brainstorm and quad Rune Snag (maybe I shouldn't have quad Rune Snag?) blue also has the least desirable gold cards of any color by far.

basically my entire blue section (http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/114) reflects my views on the whole "blue-gro" experiment, viz. it was an awful failure, and accordingly has no cards like tandem lookout or cloudfin raptor. multiple delvers seem less of a bad design choice than trying to support mono-blue devotion by adding 1-ofs of cards nobody else wants that suck without a critical mass, nobody else wants them, etc. but i've tried to make the cards ones that stand on their own. though this has made blue less versatile than the other colors, i think adding weak creatures would not solve that problem, while adding "four delvers" (metaphorically) might also dilute diversity by having a poisony archetype.

maybe it would be interesting to write up a short explanation of the creatures that aren't in my blue section but are "first alternates" or "retired veterans," such as tidespout tyrant. let me know if there is any interest in this, and tell me if i am right or wrong. go battle

 

[Suicufnoc]

While blue may not be great as the leading color of an aggro deck, it can be a great support color for aggro/tempo decks. What this means to me is, no Blue Aggro 1 drops or CC 2 drops, and 1CC 3 drops most likely won't be played in those decks unless they're very good. That said, these kinds of cards do some good work there:

The "tempo" counters are probable of questionable merit in those decks, as you'd rather keep playing threats rather than hold up counter mana. Maybe adding more flash creatures would help with that.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

A blue/green grow deck won the last (ignoring the silent auction) draft. I'm a big fan of Cloudfin Raptor and cube two. I've seen 5/6 Raptors on multiple occasions. I also cube Thrummingbird, which always does a lot more work than you'ld expect. Other than those two:

 

[Peter LaCara]

I struggled a lot with my blue creature section. I tried desperately to make blue aggro-control work. Finally I just said fuck it and cut all the blue aggro creatures and lo and behold, what happens? Blue becomes a sweet support color and a bunch of aggro-control decks start popping up. Anyway, here's my section as of right now:

 

[James Stevenson]

How's Jeskai Elder been?

 

[Goldenpineapple]

Does anyone actually not pick phyrexian metamorph because they aren't blue? I'm pretty sure that's just a colorless card.

I play multiples of looters, man-o'-war, and sea gate oracle because they typically make the most difference in a blue deck's curve, creature-wise. The only card I play that isn't already here is azure mage and no matter how much shit it gets from my players or this forum it gets both picked and played constantly. There isn't a glut of 2-cmc dudes you don't hate drawing late, though blue has a fair number of them.

 

[James Stevenson]

I play multiples of looters, man-o'-war, and sea gate oracle because they typically make the most difference in a blue deck's curve, creature-wise. The only card I play that isn't already here is azure mage and no matter how much shit it gets from my players or this forum it gets both picked and played constantly. There isn't a glut of 2-cmc dudes you don't hate drawing late, though blue has a fair number of them.

I like Azure Mage but it just never seems to get activated when I play it.

 

[Suicufnoc]

How sweet is Coralhelm Commander? I'm interested, but keep forgetting to test it.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Does anyone actually not pick phyrexian metamorph because they aren't blue? I'm pretty sure that's just a colorless card.

Yeah, Metamorph is a colorless 3 drop for sure. It gets run by the first player who feels there's nothing better in the booster, regardless of what colors that player is in.

I run Riddlesmith, which is fairly funny, but probably worse than Merfolk Looter. It can beat down though, so there's that.

 

[Chris Taylor]

*Crick's Neck*
I'm just gonna talk in terms of the blue aggro thing here since you could hit random on gatherer until you filled your blue section and make a decent control list, even if it ends up finsihing people off with cloud djinn

Specifically about 1 drops:
Enclave Cryptologist: Probably one of the better looteres, but almost strictly a control card.
Delver of Secrets: I've been outspoken on this before. Even if the flip chance was 50/50 (which requires aprox 20 instants/sorceries) I wouldn't want to run it. Too high variance, and a real shitty average case.
Cloudfin Raptor: Decent card, but 2 main problems. 1) You need to evolve it twice before it's worth anything as a creature, and 2) you need to play a LOT of creatures. Spending your turn casting repulse isn't going to cut it with this guy.
Phantasmal Bear: Probably my favorite blue 1 drop at the moment. Do a quick pass over things that your opponent can cast that wouldn't kill this guy anyway (It's probably sylesnya charm). Not so great if your blue decks lean heavily on runechanter's pike, but this is becoming less and less the case as time goes on.
Cursecatcher: This card sees play almost entirely on lord synergy, and won't be good without a pile of lords. Don't run 1 power creatures and expect people to attack with them. They get cut instead.
Wingcrafter: A decent support creature, but does very little on it's own. Even then, evasion is nice, but it's usually not worth a whole card on it's own, unless the creature is huge. Don't run cards that are only good when you're winning (Have a huge creature out)

There's a problem with blue creatures in that they all have low power. From Merfolk Looter all the way up to mulldrifter, blue has this problem that it can keep you on the back foot for a long time, but can never finish the job.

How sweet is Coralhelm Commander? I'm interested, but keep forgetting to test it.

Coralhelm Commander is fine if you have time to level him up. If your cube demands people actually do something each turn, he's shit since people have to do more with their turns then pay his echo cost to remain competitive. Do remember you're basically paying to give one of your creatures +1/+1 and flying. I'm sure that's an okay play sometimes, but would you play that card?
If you don't have all the time in the world, he's grizzley bears, which is so below the curve it's laughable. The only reason enclave cryptologist works despite the same principal is because it skips turns your average blue mage isn't doing anything on anyways

I like Azure Mage but it just never seems to get activated when I play it.

If you've gotten to the point of the game where azure mage is good, you're likely in good shape.
Don't play cards that are only good when you're winning. Man-o'-war suffers from this as well: It's really poor on the defensive. The time you buy is nice, but unless you're getting extra tempo out of it by bouncing something with auras/equipment on it, the gray ogre you get out of it is just really disappointing.

Yeah, Metamorph is a colorless 3 drop for sure. It gets run by the first player who feels there's nothing better in the booster, regardless of what colors that player is in.

I run Riddlesmith, which is fairly funny, but probably worse than Merfolk Looter. It can beat down though, so there's that.

I think if riddlesmith read "spell" instead of "artifact" he might be playabale. Increased Card Quality + goblin piker is an okay package, but still a little weak. I played a version with flying and it was....okay.

I have high hopes for Frost Walker (The Phantasmal 4/1 for from FRF) for basically the same reason as phantasmal bear, but I'm not sure. 1 toughness is rough, especially on a nonevasive creature.

Lastly, my all time favorite blue tempo card needs to be shared: (Straight outta compton prophecy)

 

[Onderzeeboot]

A hundred times yes. Withdraw is super awesome. The only reason I cut it is de CC casting cost. Can't have too many of those in a gold-focused cube.

Edit: I once managed to ult Tamiyo with Venser in play, Withdraw in hand, and plenty of mana. Good times, good times.

 

[Eric Chan]

if you just want a vanilla beater, this guy's got your back



it's funny how we were talking about a vanilla 4/4 being cubeable in the other thread, cause this guy is often a 6/6 out of the gates, growing to 10/10 over time

 

[Chris Taylor]

if you just want a vanilla beater, this guy's got your back



it's funny how we were talking about a vanilla 4/4 being cubeable in the other thread, cause this guy is often a 6/6 out of the gates, growing to 10/10 over time

This is true, and I do like him, but there's a few stipulations on your statement:

• He essentially can't block
• He kinda has the phantasmal keyword on your opponent's turn.
• Lol Basalt Monolith is a horrible card every other time

Don't get me wrong, I love an oversized beater as much as the next guy, but a lot of blue's creature problems stem from it being rubbish when it's on the back foot, a problem this guy exacerbates, not fixes.

 

[Eric Chan]

yeah blue's creatures can make for good tempo decks and good control decks, but it doesn't do midrange very well. that's fine by me, as not every colour can be good at every archetype.

some of the many cheap value creatures for control, that do block well

 

[Diakonov]

Great post, Chris. The only one I truly disagree with is Man-o'-War. It's very uncommon that I cast that card and am not super satisfied, even on defense with non-value targets (bounce their beefiest creature, block a smaller dude). When you get it involved with durdly recursion/Birthing Pod etc. it shines even brighter. I've even considered doubling up on it, particularly because he encourages blue aggro.

I am totally on board with loving Phantasmal Bear. I've been squadroning a pair of those for a while now.

@CML: I cut Sower of Temptation after our discussion of how swingy it is and kept in Control Magic for that sort of effect. It will likely earn a spot again but I was getting kind of tired of playing against it EVERY draft.

Also, I cut Consecrated Sphinx for being unfun. I'm curious as to what other people's experiences were with that card. Otherwise, I run essentially all the same blue creatures you have there.

@Suicufnoc: Rushing River is totally sweet, I had completely forgotten about that card. The last time I cast that was via Cunning Wish to my Vintage sideboard.

@Onder: I think most of those are great, though I feel that Sharding Sphinx is underpowered and Stitched Drake didn't pan out too well for me. Speaking of which:



This has always been a favorite of mine.

@Peter: How have Kira and Voidmage Prodigy been for you?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Pretty much all of blues best generically powerful tempo cards are all fours, with a few exceptions




Everything else is very finicky, requires some amount of theme support, singleton breaking, or multi-picks to really work, and ideally a lower power-level.

Which is probably fine, seeing as blue is good at pretty much everything else.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Great post, Chris. The only one I truly disagree with is Man-o'-War. It's very uncommon that I cast that card and am not super satisfied, even on defense with non-value targets (bounce their beefiest creature, block a smaller dude). When you get it involved with durdly recursion/Birthing Pod etc. it shines even brighter. I've even considered doubling up on it, particularly because he encourages blue aggro.

I am totally on board with loving Phantasmal Bear. I've been squadroning a pair of those for a while now.

I tripled it at one point and it was still not enough It was a decent value creature for pod, but it never did any attacking. I'm willing to admit that might have been greater problems with my cube design, but meh.
I also have the problem that basically nothing is smaller than man o war, since the smallest creature is savannah lions and co. Maybe if he was a 2/3?
Double man o war is fine, most people ran AEther Adept at one point or another.

yeah blue's creatures can make for good tempo decks and good control decks, but it doesn't do midrange very well. that's fine by me, as not every colour can be good at every archetype.

some of the many cheap value creatures for control, that do block well

I will say Calcite Snapper did some work in my earlier blue aggro builds. Crashing in for 4 and being immune to most removal was a big deal. I think my current favorite among the value blocker type is augur of bolas. Perfect blend of being almost wall of blossoms in a color in which wall of blossoms would be super overpowered, being able to attack (runechanter's pike hype) and nice little synergy nods from the prowess guys.

Never had much success with test subject (Bit too pure control for my liking, also super vulnerable) or deciever exarch. Sea Gate Oracle was alright but mediocre.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Pretty much all of blues best generically powerful tempo cards are all fours, with a few exceptions




Everything else is very finicky, requires some amount of theme support, singleton breaking, or multi-picks to really work, and ideally a lower power-level.

Which is probably fine, seeing as blue is good at pretty much everything else.

I actually found it was threes I had problems with:




Other than TNN, I've run every single one of these. and that's just creatures, to say nothing of the solid other cards like repulse, rushing river and exclude

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Man-o'war is a bit sensitive to his environment i.m.o. Not every environment benefits from tapping out for turn 3 disruption on a 2/2 body. He was terrible in my old cube, but pretty good in the current one.

The thing with most blue 3 creatures (tempo wise), is that while I can fill that section up, in execution it tends to be a bit underwhelming.

Clique (which I somehow had forgotten) is the only really generically excellent one, with serendib winning a distant silver. Fettergeist is pretty bad for a tempo strategy, stitched drake requires support, man-o'-war is environment picky, aether adept is a more narrow version of man-o'-war, pestermite is underpowered, thassa wants a density of bad blue creatures, wake thrasher is bad on defense, latch seeker is just a stalmate breaker, and true name is just bad design.

The section still gravitates around low power and support.

When you switch to spells, things get a lot better. 2cc counters and 2-3 cc instant speed bounce are great ways to keep an opponent off kilter, though you ideally want some sort of 1cc pressure or 2-3cc flash pressure.

Which kind of illustrates how man-o'-war can be bad, since you don't want to lower shields to bounce something, and than have the opponent resolve a nasty midrange drop on their own turn...

 

[Chris Taylor]

Man-o'war is a bit sensitive to his environment i.m.o. Not every environment benefits from tapping out for turn 3 disruption on a 2/2 body. He was terrible in my old cube, but pretty good in the current one.

The thing with most blue 3 creatures (tempo wise), is that while I can fill that section up, in execution it tends to be a bit underwhelming.

Clique (which I somehow had forgotten) is the only really generically excellent one, with serendib winning a distant silver. Fettergeist is pretty bad for a tempo strategy, stitched drake requires support, man-o'-war is environment picky, aether adept is a more narrow version of man-o'-war, pestermite is underpowered, thassa wants a density of bad blue creatures, wake thrasher is bad on defense, latch seeker is just a stalmate breaker, and true name is just bad design.

The section still gravitates around low power and support.

When you switch to spells, things get a lot better. 2cc counters and 2-3 cc instant speed bounce are great ways to keep an opponent off kilter, though you ideally want some sort of 1cc pressure or 2-3cc flash pressure.

Which kind of illustrates how man-o'-war can be bad, since you don't want to lower shields to bounce something, and than have the opponent resolve a nasty midrange drop on their own turn...

Emphasis mine. I'd never really thought of this, but come to think of it this might be the core of why blue aggro is such a strange beast. Weather you doom blade the wall of omens now or later matters a little, but you aren't losing much by waiting and developing your board instead.
Blue on the other hand can't ever remove that creature once it's resolved (Barring bounce followed by counter).

That's almost certainly not something you'd want to fix, counters are a huge part of blue's flexibility and color identity, but it probably sheds some light on a few things. Maybe we need more daze?

Come to think of it, I should take a look at which 3-5cc creatures make bounce spells embarassing. Hero of Bladehold isn't that great if perma-unsummoned. but cards like cloudgoat ranger or bone shredder laugh in the face of such antics.

Full disclosure: My cube has one copy of this:

Spoiler

Which complicates the identity problem somewhat. I still think it's fine given how expensive the answer is, but it does color my experience somewhat. I've never played netrunner, but I like the game design idea that everyone should have answers to problem cards, just not necessarily good ones (Good old comparison between Path to Exile and Oblivion Ring)

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The thing with blue aggro, is thats its not aggro, its aggro disruption. You pretty much never want to be curving out with dudes, but instead relying on bounce and counters to disrupt the opponents game plan, while cracking in for damage. The mono U delver decks in pauper have really no hard permenent removal, but it just dosen't matter when you are beating in with threats while keeping the opponents threats off the board. The old RUG delver decks in legacy were similar, but relied on stifle and wasteland to disrupt the opponent while mongooses and delvers beat them to death. Same with infect, it lacks hard board removal, and just relies on FOW and daze to disrupt enough to kill you.

What is a "Fish Deck?"

"Fish" is the name of an old aggro-control deck that ran a bunch of countermagic and some merfolk; it would win by attacking with the merfolk whilst countering vital spells with its counterspells. Its goal was to win before it ran out of countermagic. Many decks since have used this same basic strategy, and the strategy is one of the more common aggro-control strategies. Even though most of these decks run few if any merfolk anymore, the monicker "Fish" has stuck to the deck type. Faeries is a "fish deck" because it wins using the same general strategy of attacking with efficient creatures whilst countering vital spells, but is a bit different from most Fish decks insofar that a lot of the faeries double as spells themselves due to their comes into play effects.

One of the core problems with the deck in cube, as a blue base strategy, is a lack of sufficent supporting cards. Merfolk themselves are very narrow, faeries as a disruptive strategy is inheriently limited by lack of access to spellstutter sprite and the lack of good faerie density, cloudfin raptor goes against the basic strategy, while delver requires a host of TOL manipulators to be consistent.

That leaves you with phantasmal bear, which is a bad card compared to what every other aggro color can do, and isn't evasive. You need cheap evasive plays or flash creatures so you can keep your counters up while clocking in. Thats why delver, spellstutter sprite, and cursecatcher are good in their respective decks.

The other problem it has is that the more you raise the power level, you start to have an effect where removal has to be ramped up to match the threats, which in turn means that creatures have to have good ETBs to be impactful. At that point, not only does bounce become much worse, but the ETB creatures from other colors begin to compete with blue for meaningful tempo plays.

And the last problem is that people just build the decks wrong, or the designers poorly implement tempo into the cube (I have been guilty of this on both fronts). They want to draft, build, and play the deck like its sligh (disaster, blue can't compete in the direct aggro department); or they focus on spells at the expense of threat density; or the designer starts running cards that have a historical reputation as "tempo cards" but with no real appreciation for how a tempo strategy should be executed within the context of their respective format.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I love this post.

 

[Lucre]

I feel like people trying to cram in extra blue creatures for the sake of having more dorks in every colour are missing blues point and the point of having great fixing. We don't need to have a dumb attacking creatures deck in every colour, if you really want to have one, do it intentionally with say a really well thought out delver/tokens strategy, graveyard/madness deck, tradewind/ devotion deck. Blue has tonnes of great spells that require support to be strong and other colours have amazing creatures and permanents that would love the support of blue's enablers and disruption.

Making everything even isn't being thoughtful about how different archetypes rely on some colours more than others.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Though experiment:
Maybe this is stupid, but what would be the consequences of this?
A cube consisting of:
20 Black Aggro Creatures, none in other colors.
20 Blue Counterspells, none in other colors.
20 Green Ramp Spells, none in other colors.
20 Red spot removal spells, none in other colors.
20 White Board Wipes, none in other colors.
and then fixing good enough to run 2-3 colors, but not 4-5
Something like that

 

[Peter LaCara]

@Peter: How have Kira and Voidmage Prodigy been for you?

Voidmage Prodigy definitely pulls his weight. Every time I've seen him in play, he's basically been equivalent to Glen Elendra Archmage because people usually have an extra wizard or two lying around to counter big spells.

Kira is a nice evasive threat that is suuuuper tough to deal with. Eliminating her becomes priority #1, and you pretty much always have to 2 for 1 yourself to get rid of her. She does have the downside of making equipment super awkward, but 2 to equip a Bonesplitter isn't that bad and Grafted Wargear just chuckles to itself.

Both of them do a good job contributing to devotion as well, with Kai being a sneaky way to get a couple blue mana symbols even when you don't have double blue available.

How's Jeskai Elder been?

Okay. Probably not as good as Looter il-Kor, but it hasn't been embarrassing so far. It can block, and if you have a trick it can eat stuff, which is a nice upside, but the lack of real evasion is a problem. I do like the bluffing game with the threat of activation on it, though.