Card/Deck +1/+1 Counters

FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Marath seems pretty cool, I think it is going in. Three color cards aren't ideal, but I'm playing Sidisi and Jeskai Ascendancy and they are doing ok.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Chris Taylor said:
Per activation. If it was actually infinite I'd be more worried :p
You figure it's good enough for main cube?
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I figure it's good enough for ULD. I run it. People try to go deep with it occasionally, maybe it's not correct. Works especially well with the Green PWs that make tokens. (OG Garruk can even untap it to give creatures +2/+2, suddenly Xenagos is making 3/3 hasty duders).

It's got a moderately strong BCS, but a non-trivial drawback. I wouldn't main cube it, but I am happy when my players try to make something work with it.
 
James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Hmm I thought I wrote a post about Ghave. Silly mobile. Anyway, Re: Ghave:

I tried it back when I started this thread. It's a bomb. I thought it would cool with other +1/+1 counters cards, but actually it's a house on its own, and annoying and really busted. I cut it after a couple games. But it was ages ago, try it yourself. I gripe with it partially because it's one of those made up "commander" cards.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Magic:_The_Gathering_keywords

So if I'm going to jam more incentives for counter dudes in my cube, I figured I'd start with the obvious examples, since the usual tribal approach of +1/+1 (goblin king) is a bit silly on a tribe that is based on having +1/+1.

Deathtouch (Mer-Ek Nightblade): Could be interesting, but I'd like to keep the theme in naya, and deathtouch is about 98% black. As well, deathtouch works best on small creatures, while this is usually about making creatures big

First Strike (Ainok Bond-Kin): As noted above, FSR's been playing this fella as a savannah lion with outlast 4W for a while, and I think that's a good spot. Normally I'd like different mechanics on my +1/+1 counter creatures, but I think that's asking a lot of a 1 drop, so I think it's in a good place.
Could also exist in red, which might be interesting.

Flash (No current examples): A bit hard to word (assuming you want it to be counter specific), and I'm not entirely sure it's worth it besides.

Flying (Abzan Falconer): This one I actually like. Body's decent, flying is a great incentive, has immediate impact, and isn't insane on it's own, so it reliably wheels for the +1/+1 counter player. I'm still not a huge fan of outlast as a method of getting counters, but (as with Ainok Bond-Kin) if he had something easier like unleash he'd just be good enough to not be a card for the tribal player.

Haste (Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch): Here's an interesting one! I'd like to keep it in red, and hopefully be cheaper than 4, since that's where I find this deck's curve tops out; Probably a 2 drop if I can (Something along the lines of Lightning Mauler), or 3 drop if that proves to be broken.

Intimidate: Probably not, but taking a page out of recent wizard's book and giving them menace might be worth a shot. Pyreheart Wolf was a sweet one

Lifelink (Abzan Battle Priest): Another one I worry about. Maybe a smaller trigger like "gain 1 life when ~ attacks or blocks"? Another solution would be to make this card 5 mana, as the difference between Whip of Erebos and Noble Cause is staggering

Reach (Longshot Squad): Another one I'd be happy with. Here's a creature I could see with a better than outlast keyword, maybe something like graft or evolve. Probably green, so unleash is unlikely. Renown would be weird, attacking gets you a blocking ability?

Trample (Tuskguard Captain, Bramblewood Paragon): Another great keyword, but the bodies on our initial ventures in the brackets over there are a tad lackluster. Another candidate for a nice +1/+1 counter giving ability. Almost certainly has to be green.

Sweet Mechanics involving +1/+1 counters:
  • Renown
  • Evolve
  • Unleash
  • Bloodthirst
  • Kicker? (It can)
  • Modular (Oh man Sentry of the Scale gives me ideas. Evil Ideas)
  • Monstrosity
  • Undying (One to be careful with)
  • Heroic (If you're into that)
Less Sweet:
  • Devour
  • Outlast
  • Level Up (Fine mechanic, but not the best to proliferate. Also not actually +1/+1 counters)
  • Megamorph
  • Scavenge (Again fine, but a bit of a clunky way to be getting counters on your dudes. Plays better as a bonus on a creature, rather than an incentive)
  • Sunburst
How about you guys? Are there any ideas here that seem sweet to you?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I've been running that tribe for a while now. I would describe it as a tier 2 deck over here in terms of popularity (though thats perhaps unfair to it in terms of potential). Decks like that really want to have tools to protect their board state as the easiest way to beat them is to just pick apart their key enablers.

Its mostly a G/W deck (though there is some red overlap), with the core of it being the KTK outlast lords (minus abzan battle priest and mer-ek nightblade). The former was omitted because I didn't think it would be good enough as a four drop, while the latter due to mechanical isolation. I like having the deck straddle the line between the 1-2 drop based aggressive strategies, and the 4 mana based midrange strategies, and most of those cards do an admirable job of that.

Longshot squad is quite nice to have in green, as it helps address flyers, however at 4 mana I don't think its playable in most other formats.

One card that you left out is champion of lambholt, which I find fits quite nicely into the strategy. I also like the idea of bramblewood paragon, though I dislike the card itself: the warrior text can become a drafting red herring, and it itself dosen't grow. One of the nice things about the G/W counter deck is that its lords are low enough to the ground to facilitate an aggro deck, but can shift to a midrange role and go over the top if they need to.

Anyways, here are some sample decks from various points of the penny cube's development:

R/G/w counters/auras from CubeTutor.com











GWr Counter Squad from CubeTutor.com












GW CounterPants Aggro from CubeTutor.com











G/W/r Hexproof Auras









I think that covers a lot of angles. fwiw there was a point where I was trying to strongly tie the theme into red, but failed to do so.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Red to me gets a big boost from volt charge (Probably the best printed proliferate card) and from various unleash cards + stromkirk noble having a high density of dudes who happen to have counters.

I'll be the first to admit basically all the graft creatures are crap, but the mechanic itself isn't that bad, especially on a +1/+1 counter lord. It's also just decent shorthand for when you want a creature to just have counters on it (Simic initiate, but like playable)
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Volt charge is great, but the theme needed more support to flesh it out in red. Red wanted to be very aggro, but most of the bloodlust creatures were terrible (or were more midrangy) and I didn't really like the unleash options.

What did you have in mind? I have to admit Exava is intriquing--I had completely missed her--and I would be onboard with looking at a more aggro focused R/B counters deck. I'm not sure if you have enough density of "lords" but maybe 2-3 copies of volt charge would be enough to fill the gap?
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch is in my current cube and she is... a bit of a fish out of water. The card is strong on it's own. The effect is cool and has synergy obviously. But she's RB and a 4 drop. Both of which work against her (4 drops are just packed). As an RG card, she'd be epic in my list as that color has really strong +1/+1 counter support. Black really doesn't have much though so it's a bit of an awkward splash. I tried to tie it together with a shaman theme (black has a lot of shamans) and Rage Forger, but it's a stretch and I'm not sure I like it.

I like the RG flavor of +1/+1 a lot though because it's a strategy I feel wants to exploit an early advantage in creature size and that color combination wants that naturally (green brings beats and red has flexible removal/reach in the form of burn). When you get a synergistic opening, nothing can compete with your creatures in the first 4 turns or so. And even when it doesn't go perfectly to plan, things like Ion Storm can generate tons of value later to transform you more into a midrange strategy. And I can't stress how completely ridiculous Hardened Scales is in this deck too. Narrow, yes. But sooooooo good.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
ahadabans said:
Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch is in my current cube and she is... a bit of a fish out of water. The card is strong on it's own. The effect is cool and has synergy obviously. But she's RB and a 4 drop. Both of which work against her (4 drops are just packed). As an RG card, she'd be epic in my list as that color has really strong +1/+1 counter support. Black really doesn't have much though so it's a bit of an awkward splash. I tried to tie it together with a shaman theme (black has a lot of shamans) and Rage Forger, but it's a stretch and I'm not sure I like it.

I like the RG flavor of +1/+1 a lot though because it's a strategy I feel wants to exploit an early advantage in creature size and that color combination wants that naturally (green brings beats and red has flexible removal/reach in the form of burn). When you get a synergistic opening, nothing can compete with your creatures in the first 4 turns or so. And even when it doesn't go perfectly to plan, things like Ion Storm can generate tons of value later to transform you more into a midrange strategy. And I can't stress how completely ridiculous Hardened Scales is in this deck too. Narrow, yes. But sooooooo good.
Click to expand...

General Stonebrow.png

You're welcome! :p

Fuck, this card looks cool!
 
Kuldahar

Kuldahar

Chris Taylor said:
I'm considering Marath because I want to bring the curve of this deck down :p
Also my black section doesn't have any support for this thing, since there were a few cool enablers, but basically no dudes that just have +1/+1 counters on them
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I have Marath at casting cost {X}{R}{W}{G} to keep him in the spirit of the original intent - just a thought.

Also you could take


Add {1} to his mana cost and insert "Each creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has vigilance." I know you were looking to lower the curve, but I was thinking this more of a topper.

Also I feel your lost cache spell would read better as
Lost Cache - {G}
Sorcery
Kicker {1}
Look at the top 4 cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or land card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest of them on the bottom of your library in any order. If you paid the kicker cost, proliferate.

The harmony charm, while the flexibility is nice, I would probably just
Surge of Green Stuff - {G}{1}
Instant
Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn. Proliferate.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Kuldahar said:
I have Marath at casting cost {X}{R}{W}{G} to keep him in the spirit of the original intent - just a thought.
Click to expand...
I'm slightly more worried about the 3 color ness, but interesting idea. I think there might be a GR version of Grenzo I could make...
Kuldahar said:
Also you could take


Add {1} to his mana cost and insert "Each creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has vigilance." I know you were looking to lower the curve, but I was thinking this more of a topper.
Click to expand...
Sentiniels has been fine as a topped without modified text, and vigilance isn't really what I envision my 5 drop reward card being.
And again, I am trying to lower the curve :p
Kuldahar said:
Also I feel your lost cache spell would read better as
Lost Cache - {G}
Sorcery
Kicker {1}
Look at the top 4 cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or land card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest of them on the bottom of your library in any order. If you paid the kicker cost, proliferate.
Click to expand...

Kicker does work well, until you consider reminder text:

Lost Cache - {G}
Sorcery
Kicker {1} (you may pay an additional {1} as you cast this spell)
Look at the top 4 cards of your library. You may reveal a creature or land card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest of them on the bottom of your library in any order. If you paid the kicker cost, proliferate.(You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on them, then give each another counter of a kind already there.)

Proliferate, while lovely to us as designers, is still just a one time mechanic on 14 cards from a block from a few years back, even if it does have casual appeal.
I originally had the card as you describe, but I think it was 5 lines of text without any intentional line breaks (Like after kicker), which felt cramped as hell. Given my playgroup I can't remove the reminder text, so I went with the wording you advise against.

Kuldahar said:
The harmony charm, while the flexibility is nice, I would probably just
Surge of Green Stuff - {G}{1}
Instant
Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn. Proliferate.
Click to expand...

I think you and I are focusing on different aspects of the card. The most important mode of the charm I find is the regenerate one, since this deck has real problems if it can't stick a creature. I threw the giant growth mode on because occasionally regen wouldn't be a good enough combat trick.

Regardless, both green proliferate cards are likely going. Cache I find has unwanted tension between playing it early to ensure your draw gets to the late game, and playing it late so that proliferate works its charms, in addition to the wording issues mentioned above. Something like it would likely work excellently in blue, where it could just say "draw a card" and nobody would bat an eye, but I'm keeping the theme in naya.
Charm on the other hand plays well, but feels very unfocused, like I just added it because I needed something that said proliferate on it (which is true)

Volt Charge really does feel right, for a few reasons. Firstly, because it does something a deck otherwise chock full of creatures wouldn't realistically do, and secondly because three is late enough that you'll have a decent creature base built up and to require some sequencing, but early enough that you don't feel choked at it's point on the curve (like 4). As well, 3 has the advantage of being statistically likely to be reached every game.

In that light, I'm going with the slightly less flexible white volt charge:

Overwhelming Guilt {2}{W}
Instant
Target creature deals damage to itself equal to its power
Proliferate (You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on them, then give each another counter of a kind already there.)

Search for a satisfactory green spell with proliferate ongoing.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
After having a lot of fun with a deck based around it in Standard tonight, I'm wondering how dedicated your +1/+1 theme has to be to run:



It's one of those cards that is clearly absurd in the best-case scenario and questionable otherwise, but I think the base rate is actually decent. On-tap bolster + vigilance makes combat surprisingly difficult for the opponent on both offence and defence, and if the game is stalling out it's nice to have a passive effect that grows your board. There are the obvious synergies with persist/undying and the like as well.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Hangerback walker seems unintuitively bad for this deck sadly. I've found that it's good enough that it gets swiped by other drafters, and does really well at fighting the deck because of how well it blocks.

There's now a nice pile of cards that incendentally use +1/+1 counters in their design, but we're basically still stuck with the same incentives (unless you custom it)
Volt charge
Abzan Falconer
High Sentinels of Arashin
etc
 
japahn

japahn

Scaleguard has been the best +1/+1 counters payoff card for me. It closes out games pretty quickly in counter decks, and is a reasonable curve topper for aggro/midrange. Even on an empty table it's a 4/4 for 4W that taps the best blocker when attacking. It's not good in defense, though.
 
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