[360][Modern] - Stubob's Cube

Nice forum you guys got going on so far. I was looking for another place to discuss cube when I stumbled upon here. Im currently pretty swamped with work and summer stuff but I wanted to get my list up here quick. Ill post more details when I actual have the time but for now heres a link to the list on cubetutor.

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/128

I love how you guys seem to go against the norm (or at least against the MTGS hivemind) and I really like the idea of getting some oddball suggestions. One thing I will point out about my cube is that it will always be singleton. Its one of the things that brought me into this format since I built this cube from scratch. Anyways Im very open minded to any and all suggestions. Im a spike at heart so in my drafts I want the most powerful plays I can get. I have a lot of players that are more Timmy like. So my cube is mostly geared towards power level but Im willing to drop power for fun. Anyways looking forward to sharing some more of my thoughts with you guys in the future.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Sterling, thanks for posting! Looking forward to hearing more about your cube and your ideas.

I did a quick run through of your list, and it seemed pretty reasonable. The Planeswalker density was perhaps a bit high for my taste, but to each his own.

One thing perhaps to keep in mind is that spikes will be spikes, regardless of the power of the format. They will try to create the most powerful deck, regardless of whether it is core set sealed or Modern Masters draft or whatever. Players will try to do what is most powerful regardless of the context. When I first started cubing there was this notion implicitly expressed in the community that you set some ground rules (e.g. pauper, peasant, unpowered, powered) then tried to make the design as powerful as possible.

When playing as spike, your job is to identify the most powerful cards possible, and when designing for spike your job is to make sure that those strategies are interesting, fun, and rewarding. Pretty much every banning in competitive Magic has been implemented with the goal of making a format's "power max" strategies more enjoyable.

But as always, as long as you and your players are enjoying the experience, you're doing a successful job. Oh, and welcome to our forum. We're glad to have you!
 
Jason thanks for the reply. The high amount of Planeswalkers is intentional. The cube first started off as Peasant but after a few drafts we knew we wanted rares and mainly Planeswalkers. So the first ones introduced were all the originals. The playgroup has not once had a complaint about there being too many or that they are over powered. When I think about Modern and the most powerful things you can do it usually involves a walker. I also think one of the best answers to a walker is Creatures and aggro decks have been really good for us. If we didnt support aggro like we do I could see them being a problem but for now they are a great part of the draft and games.

I have a new update Im working on that will actually bring the cube up to 450. With this update I want to focus mostly on archetypes and support for them so cards that aren't necessarily powerful but important will be coming in.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Modern cube! You know I'm all over that.

I pretty much agree with Jason's sentiments above. The list looks pretty good on the whole, and the only real issue I'd identify right off the bat is that the power level of some of your colorless cards is a fair bit higher than your coloured cards. This is something I've found that can lead to a lot of early, automatic, non-committal picks from the Spikiest of your drafters, and give them even more of an advantage over Timmies trying to draft something cool and splashy. In particular, I would keep an eye on Jitte, the Swords, Batterskull, and Wurmcoil Engine. In Modern cubes, they have a tendency to ruin otherwise interesting matchups, and let their controllers run away with with games that they may or may not deserve to win.

Keep us posted as you make changes, as I'm always looking to compare notes with other folks who run Modern cubes.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
In case it wasn't obvious from his post, Eric runs a Modern cube also. I look forward to seeing you two share design notes.
 
Stubob! I think you were part of the group that did the online Rochester of my MTGO cube, drafted a Tinker deck, right?

On your cube, I see you've pulled reanimator from the cube in favor of pox. How has that worked? It is more of an all-or-nothing archetype than reanimator, so I'm curious how it's impacted black. I experimented with pox a bit, but since I do mostly 2-man drafts it never panned out often enough to make it worth the space.

How has Ictatian Javelineers been?

Finally, glad to see you play one of my favorite underappreciated cube cards: Harm's Way. One you bust that out on someone to 2-for-1 them, they play scared the rest of the match...
 
Modern cube! You know I'm all over that.

I pretty much agree with Jason's sentiments above. The list looks pretty good on the whole, and the only real issue I'd identify right off the bat is that the power level of some of your colorless cards is a fair bit higher than your coloured cards. This is something I've found that can lead to a lot of early, automatic, non-committal picks from the Spikiest of your drafters, and give them even more of an advantage over Timmies trying to draft something cool and splashy. In particular, I would keep an eye on Jitte, the Swords, Batterskull, and Wurmcoil Engine. In Modern cubes, they have a tendency to ruin otherwise interesting matchups, and let their controllers run away with with games that they may or may not deserve to win.

Keep us posted as you make changes, as I'm always looking to compare notes with other folks who run Modern cubes.

I was honestly concerned when I first added most of those cards however we just haven't seen enough of a problem for me to axe any of them yet. Yes Batterskull and Wurmcoil are annoying but no more so than Mana Leak and Cryptic Command. There are answers to these problems. Ill continue to watch the powerlevel of these cards though as I realize they are amongst the strongest in the cube.

Right now the most feared card in the cube is Crystal Shard. It has been in more winning decks than any other card in the cube. Players love and fear the Blink deck.

I'll look over your list when I get some free time. Im always excited see other Modern lists.

Stubob! I think you were part of the group that did the online Rochester of my MTGO cube, drafted a Tinker deck, right?

On your cube, I see you've pulled reanimator from the cube in favor of pox. How has that worked? It is more of an all-or-nothing archetype than reanimator, so I'm curious how it's impacted black. I experimented with pox a bit, but since I do mostly 2-man drafts it never panned out often enough to make it worth the space.

How has Ictatian Javelineers been?

Finally, glad to see you play one of my favorite underappreciated cube cards: Harm's Way. One you bust that out on someone to 2-for-1 them, they play scared the rest of the match...

That was the first time I had ever played a Tinker deck. Its one of my favorites to try and draft when we have the powered cube available.

The "pox" decks have turned out to be mostly Mono Black aggro that gets value from cards like Smallpox, Grave Crawler, Liliana, Messenger, Bloodghast. Smallpox has been the most impressive with us. Its been awesome in the Black aggro decks we've seen lately. We have yet to see a deck abuse Death Cloud though and that makes me sad as I had high hopes for that card.

Heres one I drafted recently.


Now as far as Reanimator goes its an entirely different thing in Modern. All the worth while reanimation spells cost 4 so I decided instead of trying to support reanimation I only picked what I considered the best ones (Makeshift Mannequin and Unburial Rites). Players know when they see the Rites they dont build around it but know it will get them good value in a tap out style control deck.

Javelineers plays out fairly similar to Mog Fanatic and Fume Spitter. There are so many good value creatures with 1 toughness its nice to have around. Hes not a superstar by any means but its something Im usually willing to play in my White decks.

I Love Harms Way and I feel like Im the only one in my group that ever plays it. They still havent caught on to its potential. The one that always catches my players though is Mana Tithe. I love the reaction we typically get from that card :D Talk about changing how someone plays a game.
 
We've been discussing going up to 450 but I think the group is happy the way the cube is playing right now. We can very rarely get a full so I think with 4-6 being our average 360 is feeling just right. So for now we'll just be tweaking thinngs here and there.

Out--->In

White:
Lone Missionary --->Leonin Relic-Warder

Missionary is a great card but can tend to be too good against aggro decks. Leonin will be good for aggressive decks and adds more arti/enchant hate.

Blue:
Confiscate ---> Bribery

Confiscate was very rarely main decked and when it was it was very lackluster. I had kept it in thinking Planeswalker theft would be a thing but its not happening so I think Bribery will be the better replacement. This will most be good against the midrange decks, which control has no problem with, so Ill be keeping an eye on it.

Syncopate ---> Spellstutter Sprite
Serum Visions ---> Ninja of the Deep Hours

I had just recently read Kranny's article "Blueggro" which talks about getting to a 50% split on creatures and spells as one step to take in helping blue be more "aggressive". With this change im now sitting with a 22/28 split. Im sure I could find 3 more creatures to squeeze in but I wanna see what the response is to these guys first.

Delay ---> Spell Pierce

Delay has not seen one bit of play. We love Negate so I think Spell Pierce will be a nice addition. We are also still watching Mental Misstep and are debating on swapping it for Spell Snare.

Black:
Blood Scriviner ---> Nether Traitor

Scriviner was cool at first but after the newness wore off hes been rather bleh. Traitor will be a good addition to the recurring aggro decks we are seeing in black.

Red:
Hell's Thunder --->Slagstorm

Ive noticed when Red control decks pop up they are in need of another sweeper. Hells Thunder isnt exactly a key card in aggressive decks so it shouldnt be missed.

Gold:
Bituminous Blast ---> Spike Jester
Domri Rade ---> Kird Ape

Domri was only in for a test run and he failed to impress. I also like BitBlast but I wat to give Jester a test run.
 

CML

Contributor
hey sterling, welcome to the cube group!

here are some quick impressions. i have had a blunt and i am always in fact blunt so it might be more fun to take this in a good-natured spirit. your cube, to my tastes, is plagued with the generic issues that plague conventional cube design, which are:

-your fixing is of a pretty low power-level, i strongly suggest at the least adding dem ONS fetches and original duals (no shame about proxies), which will benefit aggro. this strikes me as a better way to support aggro than including a big glut of meh little dudes.

-building on that, you say you wanna maximize power level but of course this isn't a power cube -- so you're certainly drawing the line somewhere, and i suggest that you both 'raise the floor' and 'lower the ceiling.' w/r/t the floor, there are a bunch of cards (primarily aggro-oriented) that are not great. i'll make a list of these cards below, but before that i should add that adding more fixing will certainly up the power level of your decks, increasing the amount of cross-color synergy, reducing non-games from color screw, and stuff. (a marginal benefit is that fewer spells picked = fewer cards to cut, which is both R&D's secret reason for printing unplayables in formats, consonant with the steep power curve of the modo cube, and dissonant with the modo cube's steep power curve.)

bad aggro cards:
elite vanguard
icatian javelineers
savannah lions
steppe lynx
stormfront pegasus
bad ajani
mana tithe
spellstutter sprite
fettergeist
pestermite
fume spitter
nether traitor
pack rat
reassembling skeleton
vampire interloper
magus of the abyss
mogg fanatic
torch fiend
pyrewild shaman

river boa

MBA is in particular a waste of space, sprite is bad without many faeries, lynx is sad with only five fetches, etc. i think you can do more with those slots.

some other slots that i feel could be richer include the cards that are not main-deckable:

revoke existence
mental misstep
spell pierce
manic vandal
smash to smithereens
viridian shaman

bramblecrush

the cards that aren't supported (nor are they worth supporting given your constraints IMHO):

birthing pod

tezzeret the seeker

aggro-hosers:

gideon jura
vedalken shackles

wurmcoil engine

a card that's even more miserable to pass than to pick, and to play against than to play with ('feel-bad' in R&D lingo):

skullclamp

and finally cards that grant protection, a mechanic that makes hexproof look interactive and reasonable and fun:

mirran crusader
soltari priest

5 swords of x and y

wurmcoil, swords of x and y, skullclamp are the few examples from your cube that really stick out at me as 'too powerful with respect to the rest of the environment,' i actually don't think your ceiling needs to be lowered that much because the top of your power curve is far from maximized and THAT IS A GOOD THING. the easy example is that if you added lotus it would just ruin games with its raw power, but then there are cards like recurring nightmare and no mercy that would also be flagrant offenders. i'm not much one for limiting the ceiling too much but if you find certain cards are taking over games it might be time to take a look at something like JTMS.

moving on from power-level considerations, another important consideration is your mana curve, which i think is too high. having 1's = 4's is gonna make the format more like conventional draft, and owing to the gross power discrepancy between an icatian javelineers and a jtms, aggro will have to win through control's color-screw or lack of cheap spells, which throws away yet more perfectly good games.

anyway, those cuts free 40 or so slots, and with said slots i'd

-add 15 or so lands net, upgrading some of the existing ones (goodbye, vivids!)
-add only cheap spells, mainly 1's and 2's, upgrading the existing ones

maybe consider going up to 405 cards? i think it's hard to go beyond 450 and still have a dense enough web of interactions, and it's certainly impossible to support good aggro past that without breaking singleton.

to get a sense of what other people are adding in these slots, check out some other lists. i think cube design is more directed by what cards you cut (so hard!) than by what cards you include (easy enough). surely there are more than 360 cards you want to put in cube, but the vast majority of them don't deserve it. just have the courage to try new configurations, the MTGS morons don't and that's why their cubes suck, same reason as their total ineptitude at competitive mtg or fetishization of EDH.

anyway, your list looks like mine many months ago, it's a good starting point and it's as far as all of MTGS and 90% beyond that shithole get (which the modo cube embarrassingly panders to) -- just keep tweaking. to this end having a broad variety of friends come often (i made a thread about this a long time ago) and give honest advice is important. this forum is a sweet resource. there is much to be learned from cooperfauss articles and other sources on the 'required reading' thread. don't be afraid to know what you know and admit that you don't know what you don't -- in other words, be both discriminating and humble and not spineless and arrogant, or be like a competitive MTG player and not a competitive MTG community player.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I'll just chime in and piggyback on CML's fixing comment by saying that I'm also currently breaking my Modern restriction, to finish out the fetchland cycle with the Onslaught originals. I love the dynamic that fetches provide, and as Jason outlined in his eye-opening article, having more fetches helps your two colour aggro decks immensely. The other nice benefit to having more fetches is that those sweet landfall cards, like Zendikar all-star Adventuring Gear, get that much sweeter. I'm enjoying the fetchland interactions so much that I'm now going up to 15 total, doubling up on the Zendikar versions.
 
CML:

Thanks for the Welcome!

Hey man be as blunt you as you like. If I dont like your advice I dont have to take it but it will always be welcome so I can get ideas from a different perspective.

Id love if there was more duals and fetches to add but there isnt in Modern. I have 2 design rules I will not budge on.

1) Modern format only. No Planechase/Commander. My playgroup also has a Powered cube. If I could ever sit down and put my thoughts on paper Id love to write about the differences between these two environments. We like having a restriction to this cube so its continues to have its own identity.

2) Singleton. I know this community is pretty big on breaking this rule but its one of the things that drew me to Cube. I also have not found a good enough reason to break this rule, yet. Im not against it entirely but Id rather keep looking with in this restriction.

So as much as Id love to add more fetches and duals this is what Modern has to offer. I will admit I need to think about adding some Buddy/Fast lands though as those would most likely help the aggro decks more than some of the WWK manlands. Ill look into this more and see what I can do to increase the amount of duals to come into play untapped.

bad aggro cards:
elite vanguard
icatian javelineers
savannah lions
steppe lynx
stormfront pegasus
bad ajani
mana tithe
spellstutter sprite
fettergeist
pestermite
fume spitter
nether traitor
pack rat
reassembling skeleton
vampire interloper
magus of the abyss
mogg fanatic
torch fiend
pyrewild shaman
river boa

Ive gotta disagree with you on most from that list.

One drops are very important to aggro decks and we've been happy with every single one youve listed. Lynx may not shine like it does with tons of fetches but hes still pretty decent especially turn 1.

Whats wrong with an evasive 2 powered creature for 2 mana? Not the most broken thing in the cube but something I feel is needed.

Fume Spitter, Mogg, and Icatian have all been great for us. They all play similar roles but each do it in a unique way. Theres lots of 1 toughness creatures that are worth taking out with these guys.

Which Ajani are you considering bad? Neither one is close to being bad for us.

The rest that you list may not exactly be "aggro" creatures but fill another role and play well in an aggressive deck. Mana Tithe is not a card you expect even knowing its in the cube. Players always run into it and its hard to play around in the early stages where it shines the most. It has been a beast of a card in our boros decks and doesnt get as much credit as it should for winning games. Traitor and Skeleton are there for the recurring aggro deck. I did try MBA for awhile there and I aggree its not good enough but the Recurring aggro has been doing awesome for us.

revoke existence
mental misstep
spell pierce
manic vandal
smash to smithereens
viridian shaman

bramblecrush

Yes most of these could probably be considered sideboard material but Im ok with that. We used to not play with sideboards but we found it more fun to have them and a few cards that will help a matchup. However, I still feel most can be argued for playing maindeck. Mainly the artifact hate cards. They WILL have a target. Smash and Revoke were actually added because of the complaint in lack of artifact hate. Bramblecrush is pretty lackluster card but has played its role very well for us. If Planeswalkers werent so abundant it probably would go down in power but its nice having an answer to one of the most powerful card types in the cube.

Birthing Pod is on the chopping block. Its a good value card but its not getting played. If adding more Pods is what increases its playablity then Id rather just pull it. I also dont want to add Melira because it would feel so out of place since there are no other infect or poison cards. Plus I dont feel it would add much to cube other than the combo deck with pod.

I was curious about Tezz when I added him but hes proven to be very useful. He may not be as fully supported like he is in a Powered cube but he still has some fun interactions. Hes awesome in the Wildfire.dec which does see some occasional play.

Gideon Jura
Vedalke Shackles

Ive seen these two cards mentioned before as being aggro hosers but we havent really experienced that in my cube. Ill admit they do a great job against aggro but we arent seeing them get hosed persay. Im more concerned about the amount of Life Gain/Sweepers/Walls in the cube. If Im drafting blue Shackles is an awesome answer to get against aggro which is your worst matchup.

Wurmcoil Engine

This is another card I see others dont like. It hasn't stolen games like others are experiencing. Weve actually seen a few games where the player who resolved the Engine actualy lost. There are answers to this in the cube so I havent come across a reason to take it out.

Skullclamp

I was warned about this card when I first started the cube as C/U. It could just be my playgroup but it hasnt been as broken as everyone is making it sound. I had someone even direct me to an article of why it got banned. It was a great article and it really opened my eyes as to why it needed to be banned but not once did the article address draft and how it impacted that format. Skullclamp is an amazing card and I will happily pick it up when I have Bitterblossom or Reassembling Skeleton but its not always the best choice in the pack. In cube I have found Skullclamp to be a very solid card but not overpowering unless you can find ways to abuse it.

Mirran Crusader
Soltari Priest
Swords

I've been keeping my eye more on the swords than the other 2 and so far the protection is not whats winning the games. I will continue to watch color protection and see how much its affecting the games.

I love the feedback youve given. Its greatly appreciated. My playgroup isnt exactly the greatest at giving me feedback on the cube. I usually have to ask specific questions about how games/cards are playing for them. I have never gotten anything like "There seems to be too few comes into play untapped lands for my naya aggro deck to really shine" Also theres a few players that like to play 43-45 cards with 16 lands and complain when they either get flooded or screwed. So my playgroup is a good mix of new old good and bad players. Maybe this is the biggest contributing factor as to why certain cards play out so differently for us.

Eric:

Yes finishing the fetch cycle would be great but for now Im looking with Modern only. If we didnt have a Powered cube we played as well Id probably be more willing to break the Modern restriction.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Hey, I can totally respect sticking to your guns. For the longest time, I was strictly singleton and Modern-only, too. With that said, I think you still have room to increase the density and quality of your fixing a hair. You mentioned the Scars fastlands as a potential upgrade, and it would seem that a straight-up swap for the Ice Age painlands wouldn't be unreasonable. The enemy colours, unfortunately, don't have either WWK manlands or fastlands to fall back on, so what I was doing to round out the ally cycles was to use enemy filters and enemy painlands. You could easily slide the M10 / ISD buddy lands into any of these slots, too. I find that four full cycles of fixing is important to provide support for aggro and control alike, and make sure that people wanting to cast Goblin Guide and Isamaru in the same deck don't get totally hosed by the players snapping up fixing for their decks running both Day of Judgment and Cruel Ultimatum.
 

CML

Contributor
hey sterling, real quick --

i don't find the singleton and modern restrictions useful, but i'm sure i have my own arbitrary ones (why is my cube 405 cards? it fits in a booster box, that's why) and it's not my place to tell you so like who cares. ;)

the modern restriction doesn't limit fixing too much, scars fast-lands and SHM/EVE filters are non-CIPT extras to consider (the latter would work well with aggro, esp. your double-cost two-drops). just poke around, i think this is a place where normal cube design is heavily biased towards control and most people don't know it.
also as much as i love bouncelands and wish they were in goddamn RTR getting 'em ganked was too much of a kick in the nuts, so i decided i wanted the land-destruction theme more and cut 'em.
WWK manlands are great in aggro. i would not cut those. i would add more fixing, though.

i could be wrong about a lot of the one-drops but i think the reason your 1's are performing well has more to do with control's inability to do much in the first few turns. like your early drops are heavily skewed towards creatures and not spells. you know better than i what's good, but anyway, here's a few suggestions for fun 1's:
champion of the parish
delver of secrets
guul draz assassin

8.5 tails

bad ajani is 1WW ajani. the joke i have is that, since goldmane is bad on an empty board and vengeant is bad on a clogged board, CoP hybridizes them by being bad on both. goldmane and vengeant are really powerful of course and i think goldmane is stronger in cube than good elspeth.

interesting that recurring aggro is turning out to be strong, i love my vengevines and i just couldn't get it to work (in spite of jason's excellent blueprint). can you post a sweet list?

you have a ton of artifact hate and utility removal already, i think you could afford to cut some of it (though it may be necessary with %#$%#@$ skullclamp in there), here are some favorites of mine you could add though:
thornscape battlemage
tin street hooligan
putrefy
angel of despair

abrupt decay

yeah they're gold cards but gold cards are fun.

interesting tezz works.

birthing pod is just too hard to support in a 40-card draft deck unless you're jason.

agreed too many sweepers is a pain. thragtusk is a real problem for cube aggro.

i humbly suggest that if you're passing skullclamp, you're doing it wrong. i guess i'd be concerned more with how the games go, though. staring at the opponent as they draw a million cards is not fun (based on md5 drafts, admittedly a much lower power level format). being that opponent wasn't much fun, either...

i dunno how to fix your playgroup problem. i didn't make many MTG friends even writing articles for a long time. go on trips and top8 something i guess?

CML:

Thanks for the Welcome!

Hey man be as blunt you as you like. If I dont like your advice I dont have to take it but it will always be welcome so I can get ideas from a different perspective.

Id love if there was more duals and fetches to add but there isnt in Modern. I have 2 design rules I will not budge on.

1) Modern format only. No Planechase/Commander. My playgroup also has a Powered cube. If I could ever sit down and put my thoughts on paper Id love to write about the differences between these two environments. We like having a restriction to this cube so its continues to have its own identity.

2) Singleton. I know this community is pretty big on breaking this rule but its one of the things that drew me to Cube. I also have not found a good enough reason to break this rule, yet. Im not against it entirely but Id rather keep looking with in this restriction.

So as much as Id love to add more fetches and duals this is what Modern has to offer. I will admit I need to think about adding some Buddy/Fast lands though as those would most likely help the aggro decks more than some of the WWK manlands. Ill look into this more and see what I can do to increase the amount of duals to come into play untapped.

bad aggro cards:
elite vanguard
icatian javelineers
savannah lions
steppe lynx
stormfront pegasus
bad ajani
mana tithe
spellstutter sprite
fettergeist
pestermite
fume spitter
nether traitor
pack rat
reassembling skeleton
vampire interloper
magus of the abyss
mogg fanatic
torch fiend
pyrewild shaman
river boa

Ive gotta disagree with you on most from that list.

One drops are very important to aggro decks and we've been happy with every single one youve listed. Lynx may not shine like it does with tons of fetches but hes still pretty decent especially turn 1.

Whats wrong with an evasive 2 powered creature for 2 mana? Not the most broken thing in the cube but something I feel is needed.

Fume Spitter, Mogg, and Icatian have all been great for us. They all play similar roles but each do it in a unique way. Theres lots of 1 toughness creatures that are worth taking out with these guys.

Which Ajani are you considering bad? Neither one is close to being bad for us.

The rest that you list may not exactly be "aggro" creatures but fill another role and play well in an aggressive deck. Mana Tithe is not a card you expect even knowing its in the cube. Players always run into it and its hard to play around in the early stages where it shines the most. It has been a beast of a card in our boros decks and doesnt get as much credit as it should for winning games. Traitor and Skeleton are there for the recurring aggro deck. I did try MBA for awhile there and I aggree its not good enough but the Recurring aggro has been doing awesome for us.

revoke existence
mental misstep
spell pierce
manic vandal
smash to smithereens
viridian shaman

bramblecrush

Yes most of these could probably be considered sideboard material but Im ok with that. We used to not play with sideboards but we found it more fun to have them and a few cards that will help a matchup. However, I still feel most can be argued for playing maindeck. Mainly the artifact hate cards. They WILL have a target. Smash and Revoke were actually added because of the complaint in lack of artifact hate. Bramblecrush is pretty lackluster card but has played its role very well for us. If Planeswalkers werent so abundant it probably would go down in power but its nice having an answer to one of the most powerful card types in the cube.

Birthing Pod is on the chopping block. Its a good value card but its not getting played. If adding more Pods is what increases its playablity then Id rather just pull it. I also dont want to add Melira because it would feel so out of place since there are no other infect or poison cards. Plus I dont feel it would add much to cube other than the combo deck with pod.

I was curious about Tezz when I added him but hes proven to be very useful. He may not be as fully supported like he is in a Powered cube but he still has some fun interactions. Hes awesome in the Wildfire.dec which does see some occasional play.

Gideon Jura
Vedalke Shackles

Ive seen these two cards mentioned before as being aggro hosers but we havent really experienced that in my cube. Ill admit they do a great job against aggro but we arent seeing them get hosed persay. Im more concerned about the amount of Life Gain/Sweepers/Walls in the cube. If Im drafting blue Shackles is an awesome answer to get against aggro which is your worst matchup.

Wurmcoil Engine

This is another card I see others dont like. It hasn't stolen games like others are experiencing. Weve actually seen a few games where the player who resolved the Engine actualy lost. There are answers to this in the cube so I havent come across a reason to take it out.

Skullclamp

I was warned about this card when I first started the cube as C/U. It could just be my playgroup but it hasnt been as broken as everyone is making it sound. I had someone even direct me to an article of why it got banned. It was a great article and it really opened my eyes as to why it needed to be banned but not once did the article address draft and how it impacted that format. Skullclamp is an amazing card and I will happily pick it up when I have Bitterblossom or Reassembling Skeleton but its not always the best choice in the pack. In cube I have found Skullclamp to be a very solid card but not overpowering unless you can find ways to abuse it.

Mirran Crusader
Soltari Priest
Swords

I've been keeping my eye more on the swords than the other 2 and so far the protection is not whats winning the games. I will continue to watch color protection and see how much its affecting the games.

I love the feedback youve given. Its greatly appreciated. My playgroup isnt exactly the greatest at giving me feedback on the cube. I usually have to ask specific questions about how games/cards are playing for them. I have never gotten anything like "There seems to be too few comes into play untapped lands for my naya aggro deck to really shine" Also theres a few players that like to play 43-45 cards with 16 lands and complain when they either get flooded or screwed. So my playgroup is a good mix of new old good and bad players. Maybe this is the biggest contributing factor as to why certain cards play out so differently for us.

Eric:

Yes finishing the fetch cycle would be great but for now Im looking with Modern only. If we didnt have a Powered cube we played as well Id probably be more willing to break the Modern restriction.
 
Hey, Sterling. I have to say your list looks super solid. At first glance I couldn't even tell I was looking at a variant list. It's got all the raw power of a regular list, without the accessibility issues.

A few questions:
  1. Do you think it's possible to run a list 100-200 cards larger? It seems like at 360 it's a pretty fine-tuned beast, but I could see issues with pack quality (far fewer first-picks without old frames, IMO).
  2. If I were to run a Modern-only list, I might try to pull back the power level a bit and try out some of the more narrow mechanics like Infect, Artifacts, GY matters, etc. What did earlier iterations of your list look like?
  3. Any notable strategies or cards on deck?
Pretty pumped to see another list with Spellstutter Sprite :)
 

CML

Contributor
hey kranny! -- i'm not too familiar with your corpus, so feel free to point me towards an old opus or something if i ask a boring question that everyone else asks:

- is a lack of first-picks a negative to you? i compulsively eliminated the cards that were unconditional first-picks (from recurring nightmare all the way down to glare of subdual) because i thought that was a dull dynamic, as did my playgroup, which consists (with a little variation both ways) of strong ptq players. passing them felt bad and losing to them felt worse. i've observed this increased the number of first-picks -- you can pick whatever you like, and it feels good to do so! -- allowing deck power to be based on synergy rather than raw card power -- and i feel strongly that this is not just good design practice, but one with an enormous precedent in mtg history: bannings. my idea is then to create a 'healthy metagame' -- one with a broad variety of slightly worse decks (that are all viable) instead of one with a few good decks and a bunch of consolation prizes. the broader design principle i figured out is that i like to flatten the power curve as much as possible. i guess my goal is for cube to be as much like constructed as possible, which isn't everyone's goal -- nor should it be -- but i'm surprised even other good constructed players don't look at it this way. like can you imagine skullclamp in modern? that's the best card printed since mana drain.

- infect is the namesake of the 'poison principle' (thread: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-the-poison-principle/) and there's some discussion on infect specifically in this thread (thread: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/nathans-cube.26/). i always considered that mechanic so parasitic that it didn't even function well within SOM block, one of the limited-environment failures in recent years, then there's the whole issue of its being poorly developed too (which led to the demise of blazing shoal in modern). fwiw i'm totally on-board with artifacts and gy-matters because i feel the opposite way about them, but i'm curious as to what infect would look like, more or less, in a cube like this one or yours.

for ref. if you wanna give it a glance and/or rip it to shreds my list is at (thread: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/cmls-cube-405-polychromatic.23/)

also, jason et al. -- feel free to move this if you anticipate the discussion getting out of hand, the last thing i wanna do is threadjack sterling!
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
- is a lack of first-picks a negative to you? i compulsively eliminated the cards that were unconditional first-picks (from recurring nightmare all the way down to glare of subdual) because i thought that was a dull dynamic, as did my playgroup, which consists (with a little variation both ways) of strong ptq players. passing them felt bad and losing to them felt worse. i've observed this increased the number of first-picks -- you can pick whatever you like, and it feels good to do so! -- allowing deck power to be based on synergy rather than raw card power -- and i feel strongly that this is not just good design practice, but one with an enormous precedent in mtg history: bannings. my idea is then to create a 'healthy metagame' -- one with a broad variety of slightly worse decks (that are all viable) instead of one with a few good decks and a bunch of consolation prizes. the broader design principle i figured out is that i like to flatten the power curve as much as possible. i guess my goal is for cube to be as much like constructed as possible, which isn't everyone's goal -- nor should it be -- but i'm surprised even other good constructed players don't look at it this way. like can you imagine skullclamp in modern? that's the best card printed since mana drain.


I think you always want a curve. What I've found from tooling with the Eldrazi Domain cube is that players (even me, the designer) want there to be variation in power level so that there are maximally say 3-4 cards in a pack that are "first pickable". You can also use the distribution of these cards to help have balance of distribution in archetypes. There was a time with my cube that White was really overdrafted, and we went through sample packs to discover that it did indeed have an overwhelming proportion of P1P1 picks. On the whole it wasn't that powerful, but the distribution was off. Elspeth, Balance, Armageddon being gone has helped to remedy this.

It's not that curves are bad (there will always be one), but we should pay attention to the shape of the curve. People can agree that Pack Rat in RTR is a bit ridiculous. In statistical terms, I think we want something that is more normally distributed (bell-shaped) and less exponentially distributed (skewed-right).
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
bad ajani is 1WW ajani. the joke i have is that, since goldmane is bad on an empty board and vengeant is bad on a clogged board, CoP hybridizes them by being bad on both. goldmane and vengeant are really powerful of course and i think goldmane is stronger in cube than good elspeth.

interesting that recurring aggro is turning out to be strong, i love my vengevines and i just couldn't get it to work (in spite of jason's excellent blueprint). can you post a sweet list?


Ajani over Elspeth? Hmm... it's funny that you mention "clogged board", because that really doesn't happen in our cube. Well, it does, but it happens at the 0 - 2 table. Some people seem to draft decks that clog the board but they always seem terrible. The good decks produce punchy and swingy matches. If you have a lot of clogs I can see Ajani being better than Elspeth.

I don't know that Vengeant is bad on a clogged board. Can't you attack and finish off with his Helixes, or threaten a one-sided armageddon and force them to make bad attacks?

Vengevine doesn't even need to be recurred in order to produced good value. But the blueprint did included 4x Gravecrawler, who is cast from the graveyard.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Hmm... it's funny that you mention "clogged board", because that really doesn't happen in our cube. Well, it does, but it happens at the 0 - 2 table. Some people seem to draft decks that clog the board but they always seem terrible. The good decks produce punchy and swingy matches.

Not to derail Stubob's excellent thread here, but I find that my experience is exactly the same. I'm often done my matches in 15 minutes, so I look over to my right, and there's a smorgasbord of permanents nearly spilling off the edges of the table. Sure enough, they're still on game 1. The matches where the 2-0's play each other rarely look like that, so I imagine that it's usually two durdly, do-nothing decks going head to head that produce such congested game states.
 
CML:
Im gonna be taking real close look at my land in the coming week. I aggree that I could make my fixing better and potetially add more.

Im not a fan of Delver or Champion in cube. Neither are very cosistant. I mean if you find Lynx bad I dont see how Champion is any better. Both really on other things to make them better. I feel Lynx would be more reliable the Champion. I also love Delver in constructed decks but its just not consistant enough in cube. Guul Draz Assissin is one I may have to take a look at. Ive never tried it before and I dont think its ever been suggested. Why is 8.5 ok but you dont other protection? Is it because of how much mana you have to invest?

I dont have a list that utilizes Vengevine but I did post a deck earlier in the thread. That was the first time all the pieces came together. Gravecrawler/Reassembling Skeleton/Bloodghast/Geralf's Messenger have all become very high picks. Also black is no longer uder drafted.

thornscape battlemage
tin street hooligan
putrefy
angel of despair

abrupt decay

Those are all good cards but I feel what I have already does the job better. Why Tin Street over Torch Fiend. For my organization Tin Street would be Gruul and hed never make it into that section.

Thornscape is a interesting suggestion. I like it a lot and will try squeezing it into green. Maybe in place of Viridian Shaman?

Putrefy and Abrupt used to be in but then I added Maelstrom Pulse and Vraska.

You are probably correct that we are doing something wrong if we pass Skullclamp. If I was sitting down with some of the pros or even you guys that cube on a regular basis I would most likely not pass certain cards however with my playgroup I like to try things that aren't as powerful and kind of throw them a bone every once in a while. Other times I like to mop the floor with all the good cards so they can see the power of them. Sometimes it works (Black is getting drafted more after seeing the power of recurring aggro) other times it doest do anythig (I still get passed Jitte). So yes I have an odd playgroup which makes managing my cube a little bit more difficult. But they keep saying they are having fun so Im doing something right :D

Kranny:

1. Yes Ive been discussing with the playgroup the idea of going up to the 450. We average though 4-6 players when we draft. Each time we decide 360 is feeling just right for our drafts. There has been a couple drafts where Im wanting to draft a specific archetype but a lot of the cards for that deck is sitting in the undrafted pool. So its a concern of mine that if I go higher it might dilute the decks more since we would only be drafting with roughly half the cube most of the time. Its always something Im thinking about though.

2. The cube originally started off as a Peasant cube. After only a couple drafts the playgroup was suggesting I add rares. So I started just slowly adding what I could get from trades or donations. The first rares we added were Planewalkers. I had a feeling they were gonna warp our drafts but since it was just the original 5 to start off it wasnt bad at all. I was still pretty new to cube in general so I wasnt really paying much attention to what I was supporting other than Aggro/Midrange/Control. Up until maybe the last 3-4months I was only concerned with pushing aggro and keeping Control in check. Once I felt happy with aggro I started looking more at my Archetypes and what was being supported or could be supported more.

3. Cards on deck: Blasting Station, Glare of Subdual, Tooth and Nail. These cards just kind of help push whats there already. Id like to use some of Jason's idea for the Black Sac/Recurring theme. Glare and Tooth are cards I want in now but just can't justify cutting aything for them. Heres kind of a blueprint of what I want each color doing.

White: Swarm/Blink.
Blue: Control/Tempo/Artifacts
Black: Recurring aggro/"Pox"/Hand Disruption (Obviously theres not as much support for this deck in modern but what I do have is working out great so Id like to expand on that more)
Red: Balls to the wall aggro (Id like red to branch out into more than just the aggro deck. Occasionally we will see Wildfire. Overall I like what red does because it does it so well but I wouldnt mind throwing a bone to some other possibilities)
Green: Ramp

This is each colors primary focus. Im open to hear suggestions on different archetypes I could support or different cards im not running.

Oh and Im excited to try Spellstutter Sprite. I could see it getting paired with some of the other faeries/bitterblossom and being a great counter in that deck. I can also see it in a tempo deck being cast EOT and ready to grab a piece of equipment. By the way your "Blueggro" article is a great article and really got me thinking about my blue more. I may add more things like Judges Familiar and Cursecatcher so that blue does have more to do in the early game other than drawing and ramping.

Eric:
Dont worry about derailing the thread. Is it really 2 durdly decks or just less experienced players. Ive noticed some of the newer players don't block when they should or dont attack when its the right time to. They are afraid of loosing a creatrue so boards get bogged down. I dont see this happening with the more experieced players.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
If you're looking to boost blue tempo, I'd look at adding more Man-o'-Wars, like Riftwing Cloudskate, or even Mist Raven if you want to go deep. Sending a durdly blocker back to their hand while increasing your own board presence is just about the most satisfying play in that kind of deck. Tempo-based removal spells are also a boon to the archetype, so you could try Vapor Snag, maybe in place of Into the Roil. And I know you just cut it, but Delay, while narrow, is just about perfect in tempo. Delaying any X-spell, especially a critical one your opponent needed to stabilize, or even just a planeswalker, is oftentimes GG.
 

CML

Contributor
jason, vengeant: not bad on a clogged board, but not all that great. at his best in a control or attrition shell, see how modern UWR and dune-brood ("jund" as others call it) have benefited from his inclusion.

i agree white is an intrinsically strong cube color.

i know veggies and crawlers work well together -- believe me, if i thought such a shell was good in modern, i'd be playing it.

eric, i was freaking out about boardstalls when i initially made the cube (to the point that i included hex!!) but then it isn't ever an issue. the clogged boards can turn into the same bored trench warfare that you see in really old draft formats, but that's far less common than a more complicated board state where there's some incremental advantage to be gained by attacking. stalemates aren't that hard to break.

sterling, champion is very reliable -- i think humans are the only tribe worth supporting in cube because there's so many of them that you don't even have to warp your design or even think about it. though he doesn't often get out of hand in the way he does in the standard tribal decks (and this is a good thing), he's still one of my favorite 1's. lynx of course can't block and is dependent on land-drops.

tin street leaves a body behind. i guess i just like big gold sections. multicolor aggro is fun. the issues with my cube melted away when i threw in a fucktillion fixers. thornscape is really powerful, of course he's gold too.

8.5: yeah. i also like mother of runes. static protection is dull, activated protection is enough of a challenge that i think it's worth it.
your point about 'throwing a bone' and managing a certain kind of playgroup with a 'steep power curve' (ha!) is something i've thought a lot about, and i've written an article or two about it (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10597) claiming that cube is a good way to solve some of the intrinsic issues with casual play, including that one.
so you include jitte and skullclamp to throw 'em a bone, and for what it's worth wotc does the same thing -- why else are there bombs in draft, after all. as i see it, though, this is a bad solution. bombs become more of a crutch than anything else. it doesn't help these players get better, or think about the game in a way they might enjoy more. the flip-side is that they also pass them too often and end up losing terrible games, too. i think it's kinda condescending to these players to expect them to need bombs, and wizards' reliance on these kinds of cheap design gimmicks is emblematic of how they appeal to the LCD while failing to realize they can raise that LCD, thereby abdicating any responsibility they have to that end. i call it 'lies, damned lies, and market research,' and what comes to mind is some movie company trying to approach commercial success directly (or that excellent recent article on commercialism / indifference -- http://www.salon.com/2013/05/12/jaron_lanier_the_internet_destroyed_the_middle_class/). at this point, this design principle has gone long past being a reason for the design of NWO draft formats and has instead become a huge excuse. i'm pretty certain this is the explanation for why wizards makes, almost exclusively, draft formats far poorer than they're capable of. if you don't believe me, look at how good modern masters was and ask yourself why not every format can be like that.
anyway, my own cognitive bias is to try and 'fix' things and be kind of a tyrant with my own high expectations, so take it all with a grain of salt.

---

this leads into my big point, which is this (some admin, make this and some of the above discussion into its own thread?) --

i also don't disagree that some kind of curve is desirable, but i think it's impossible to not have a curve, and as i see it part of my role as designer is to flatten it as much as possible for all the above reasons. like consider the following pack i got by mashin the cubetutor button

miscalculation
loam lion
recoil
fulminator mage
hymn to tourach
squadron hawk
huntmaster of the fells
cunning sparkmage
plated geopede
yavimaya elder
phantasmal image
liliana of the veil
helm of possession
wooded foothills

isolated chapel

you could first-pick LD (ramp or aggro) with fulminator mage, go into a WW / survival / control / token strategy with hawk (and its three buddies), go for solid value with huntmaster or yav elder, get the best creature in the best color with image, pick the most fun and flexible card (midrange, reanimator, control, etc.) with liliana. that's six possible first picks and none of them is 'better' enough than the others that you won't be able to draft a sweeter deck around it.
i imagine any one of my playgroup would be happy to crack this pack. now not all my packs are this sweet but, again, as a designer i think my role is to maximize packs like this, and maximize the number of first-picks, for all the reasons i listed above.

i wrote in another thread that cube is the successor to old-school, pre-NWO draft formats in its complexity and difficulty. sure, this wasn't a good business strategy for wizards, but free from the cost constraint i strongly disagree with almost everyone that limited formats benefit from all but a minimal direction.
 
is a lack of first-picks a negative to you? i compulsively eliminated the cards that were unconditional first-picks (from recurring nightmare all the way down to glare of subdual) because i thought that was a dull dynamic, as did my playgroup, which consists (with a little variation both ways) of strong ptq players. passing them felt bad and losing to them felt worse. i've observed this increased the number of first-picks -- you can pick whatever you like, and it feels good to do so! -- allowing deck power to be based on synergy rather than raw card power -- and i feel strongly that this is not just good design practice, but one with an enormous precedent in mtg history: bannings. my idea is then to create a 'healthy metagame' -- one with a broad variety of slightly worse decks (that are all viable) instead of one with a few good decks and a bunch of consolation prizes. the broader design principle i figured out is that i like to flatten the power curve as much as possible. i guess my goal is for cube to be as much like constructed as possible, which isn't everyone's goal -- nor should it be -- but i'm surprised even other good constructed players don't look at it this way. like can you imagine skullclamp in modern? that's the best card printed since mana drain.
I dont' think of first-picks as bombs, I think of them more as cards I want to open. Sure, Jitte and friends are pretty universally considered first-picks, but in this case I'm talking about the kind of cards that make you want to go deep. Some are just generally good role players like Survival or a tutor. Others might be more specific archetype-specific cards like Wildfire, Tolarian Academy, or 'Geddon. For me, however, I'm much more likely to first-pick something that helps me build a compelling and synergistic deck. Last night, for example, I first-picked a Guttersnipe to build the spells-matters deck. I want a pack that I open and makes me scratch my head.

infect is the namesake of the 'poison principle' (thread: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-the-poison-principle/) and there's some discussion on infect specifically in this thread (thread: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/nathans-cube.26/). i always considered that mechanic so parasitic that it didn't even function well within SOM block, one of the limited-environment failures in recent years, then there's the whole issue of its being poorly developed too (which led to the demise of blazing shoal in modern). fwiw i'm totally on-board with artifacts and gy-matters because i feel the opposite way about them, but i'm curious as to what infect would look like, more or less, in a cube like this one or yours.
I think we're a bit off from a GY-matters cube until we get a few more mechanics which interact with milling and/or the GY. It might work by breaking the singleton rule.

3. Cards on deck: Blasting Station, Glare of Subdual, Tooth and Nail. These cards just kind of help push whats there already. Id like to use some of Jason's idea for the Black Sac/Recurring theme. Glare and Tooth are cards I want in now but just can't justify cutting aything for them. Heres kind of a blueprint of what I want each color doing.

White: Swarm/Blink.
Blue: Control/Tempo/Artifacts
Black: Recurring aggro/"Pox"/Hand Disruption (Obviously theres not as much support for this deck in modern but what I do have is working out great so Id like to expand on that more)
Red: Balls to the wall aggro (Id like red to branch out into more than just the aggro deck. Occasionally we will see Wildfire. Overall I like what red does because it does it so well but I wouldnt mind throwing a bone to some other possibilities)
Green: Ramp
I'd consider taking a page from Modern Masters if you're looking to support artifacts. The artifact deck in the format is pretty great, but might not be feasible given that the power level in your list is going to be significantly higher. As for bigger artifact decks you still get a copy of Wildfire and some of the newer versions.

I think Pox is still very much supportable. You lose out on Pox, Braids, and some of the tutors, but you still get most of the good recursive creatures which are the bread and butter of the deck.
 
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