[360][Modern] - Stubob's Cube

[CML]

AH, GUTTERSNIPE! a travis woo hero.

now that you put it that way it makes more sense. i love the 'head-scratching' image -- survival is a great example, as are wildfire and armageddon and your goofy goblin.

as i see it, jitte is the opposite of a head-scratcher, though, i'd just pick it and be like, 'derp.' as an artifact and a sweet equipment it 'goes in anything' and doesn't require the kind of work to build around that the other three cards do. that's the distinction, which is reason enough for me to not consider running it. (i think survival is my favorite cube card because its power is so, so hard to build around -- and as a result it gets shipped a lot when opened in p3, for example, which is impossible to imagine with umezawa's salad tongs.)

it's also been my experience that recursive gy-matters themes in cube cannot work except by breaking singleton. of course breaking singleton past a certain point does reduce the amount of combinations each deck can have (from a combinatorics perspective). on the other hand, gy themes like value reanimator are easy enough without singleton, but i have doubled up on certain hate cards (ooze, deathrite, something else) because md'able gy hate is so hard to come by.

academy is an interesting card, i would consider running it in my cube, but i only have like 25 artifacts and a very low density of rocks. at what point would it start being worth it?

 

[Jason Waddell]

The less commonly a theme has been printed throughout Magic's history, the greater the need to break singleton to make said theme viable at a given power level. That said, there will always be a much greater catalogue of "generally good" cards than cards of any given off-beat theme. By virtue of using singleton power-max you inherently limit your design space. Not a value statement, just an observation.

I think Academy is pretty awful in cube. There are very few artifacts that cost less than 2. It won't even produce mana until Turn 3 (at the earliest) in most games. Then you need to play another artifact to get value from it. If these are both mana rocks, then hey, you are probably already doing pretty well on mana!

 

[Chris Taylor]

The less commonly a theme has been printed throughout Magic's history, the greater the need to break singleton to make said theme viable at a given power level. That said, there will always be a much greater catalogue of "generally good" cards than cards of any given off-beat theme. By virtue of using singleton power-max you inherently limit your design space. Not a value statement, just an observation
I think Academy is pretty awful in cube. There are very few artifacts that cost less than 2. It won't even produce mana until Turn 3 (at the earliest) in most games. Then you need to play another artifact to get value from it. If these are both mana rocks, then hey, you are probably already doing pretty well on mana!

From what I understand (in powered cubes mostly) it works much like Mishra's Workshop does: A land that's really good in the artifact deck and accelerates you, falling into the same deck as tinker and both Tezzerets.



Also, RE:Singleton, the most telling moment for me was when I wanted to try and make black aggro a more resilient deck, focusing on recursion. So I went and found all the good recursive guys I could, and there were only 3 good ones: Vengevine, Bloodghast and Gravecrawler.
Here's a bunch more I tried out:
Nether Spirit
Nether Traitor
Ashen Ghoul
Reassembling Skeleton
Undead Gladiator
Rotlung Reanimator
Nether Shadow

None of them really worked well enough to support the archetype, so I added more of the 3 good ones.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, it's a big difference between that and something more mainstream like, say, 7 nearly interchangeable mana dorks.

 

[Chris Taylor]

And what is the difference between Jackel Pup, Tattermunge Maniac and Rakdos Cackler, really?

 

[CML]

??

wat? rakky cacky has 2 toughness

tattermunge and pup suck in different ways. the former kills itself. the latter kills you.

the differences between these cards are small compared to bloodghast vs. rotlung reanimator or birds of paradise vs. noble hierarch, but large compared to deep analysis vs. jace, architect of thought or day of judgment and wrath of god.

 

[Jason Waddell]

The idea is that in many many situations where the cards are weighted, valued and used interchangeably in drafting, deckbuilding and gameplay. The fact that there are many said cards allows for the sufficient redundancy needed for archetype building under the singleton restriction. Many strategies do not have such luxury.

 

[CML]

right, but "R/x aggro" has much less redundancy than "U/x control" even if it has far more than "BG Zombies with Vegetables." of course Red can still be a thing with singleton, Zombies can't (at least as far as i can tell, my attempt didnt work)

another germane difference between rakdos cackler, tattermunge and jackal is that the first is in my cube and the other two aren't

 

[Chris Taylor]

Basically all he's saying is they're all 2 power 1 drops which will probably be attacking each turn there after. From this: there's no need to double up on a singular one because there's like 50 passable ones to choose from. (As much as I don't like jackel pup at the moment, he's probably still okay, which is a testament to the power of red in most cubes)

 

[CML]

i understand the concept, i just find it useless as a description of how those cards work, and more interesting as a description of how other cards work / how people ludicrously misconceive of significant differences in cards

 

[Sterling]

Also, RE:Singleton, the most telling moment for me was when I wanted to try and make black aggro a more resilient deck, focusing on recursion. So I went and found all the good recursive guys I could, and there were only 3 good ones: Vengevine, Bloodghast and Gravecrawler.
Here's a bunch more I tried out:
Nether Spirit
Nether Traitor
Ashen Ghoul
Reassembling Skeleton
Undead Gladiator
Rotlung Reanimator
Nether Shadow

None of them really worked well enough to support the archetype, so I added more of the 3 good ones.

I think it needs to be mentioned that these aren't the only creatures your looking for when building a recursive deck. Udying and Persist also make the deck gel a bit better. Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, and Geralfs Messenger are great in the deck. Strangelroot Geist is also good but we've seen the mana bases keep this guy from the same deck as Smallpox and Messenger. So the mana is going to be my top priority right now.

Im sure theres more I could post on and reply to but Ive been pretty under the weather for the last couple days and I tend to get a massive headache when I try thinking too much about the cube and changes I want to make.

One thing I did want to mention though, I got to draft Modern Masters twice. First time I went all in on Storm forcing it from the beginning but only ended up with 2 storm cards. I was a bit dissapointed since both those cards (Grapeshot, Empty) are at common Second draft I went RW giants and had what I thought was a very sweet deck but got owned hard by a UB control splashed red for Electrolyze and for sunburst 3 on E.Explosives.

For my cube I didnt get much but a Foil Maelstrom Pulse and an E. Explosives. I got a few cards Im thinking about adding at some point too. Tooth and Nail, Rude Awakening, Epochrasite, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Kiki Jiki. I wish I could do some more MM draft but im happy with the 2 i did especially since one was with my box and the other was for around $20. I know most places around here are charging over $10 a pack. Its just a reminder to me why I love cube so much. Go ahead and try some zanny off the wall draft you aren't going to be out any $ for it if it fails miserably.

 

[Eric Chan]

Epochrasite is great. I wasn't expecting much when I added it on a whim after seeing LSV using it in an MTGO cube draft, but I've been pleasantly surprised. As a bonus, it works in the black recursion deck, too!

Tooth and Nail is sweet if you support ramp and green fatties. Pretty powerful card in my cube. Rude Awakening definitely isn't bad, either.

 

[Chris Taylor]

You raise a good point, and persist dudes are also great for the archetype (I did catch one: Rotlung Reanimator )
Messenger and Redcap are great, finks is great even if you aren't in pox, and we've neglected to mention puppeteer clique who is amazing
Strangleroot geist is okay. If you want a more splashable version of him, there's the slightly less impressive Brindle Shoat from the new planechase decks.
Sadly, in black the options drop of quite quickly from there: Butcher Ghoul? Demonlord of Ashmouth? Driver of the Dead? Evernight Shade? Sightless Ghoul? Vengeful Vampire? Lingering Tormentor?

Also: Noxious Toad. I love starter/portal

 

[CML]

twilight shepherd?

 

[Chris Taylor]

It works, but it's really expensive. I've always found pox to be a really low curve deck, what with all the lands dying and what not.
Also the Triple White is even harder.
Woodfall Primus?

 

[CML]

back when i was your age sneak and show ran the tree as a hilarious 2 to emrakul's 1

 

[Sterling]

Tattermunge Maniac ---> Elvish Mystic
Magus of the Abyss ---> Liliana's Reaver
Kargan Dragonlord ---> Young Pyromancer
Cloistered Youth ---> Imposing Sovereign
Caves of Koilos --->Fetid Heath
Sulfurous Springs ---> Blackcleave Cliffs
Llanowar Wastes ---->Woodland Cemetery
Reckless Waif --->Chandra, Pyromaster
Mind Shatter ---> Black Sun's Zenith
Spellstutter Sprite ---->Perilous Research
Qasali Pridemage ---> Knight of the Reliquary
Vraska the Unseen ---> Abrupt Decay
Tezzeret the Seeker ---> Gifts Ungiven
Earthquake ---> Bonfire of the Damned
Oracle of Mul Daya ---> Scavenging Ooze

Heres my M14 update. There may be more M14 cards to come in eventually but for now these are my initial inclusions. Ive also switched some lands out to give a different configuration a try. Some other cards are coming out for not performing as I expected them to. The first miracle card is coming in. I still personally dont care for the mechanic but cant deny how good a miracled Bonfire is. I may also add Terminus at some point.

 

[Eric Chan]

Let us know how the new cards perform, particularly Reaver, Sovereign, and Pyromancer. Kind of sad to see Earthquake go, but as you say, a miracle's a miracle, and room is tight at 360. I've been using Terminus for a while now, and it's actually very fair, maybe too fair. Most times it's just a six mana Hallowed Burial here, which isn't really what anyone's looking for. Meanwhile, I'm starting to think Entreat the Angels is actively bad, and just a trap for drafters in a format with no Brainstorms to fall back on.

 

[Sean McClane]

Meanwhile, I'm starting to think Entreat the Angels is actively bad, and just a trap for drafters in a format with no Brainstorms to fall back on.

Thrre are a good amount of ways to set it up
Preordain, Ponder, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sensei's Divining Top, just off the top of my head. The decks that play those cards, probably would love Entreat...

 

[Sterling]

Im wanting to fit in Huntmaster of the Fells but I dont want to drop any of the R/G cards Im running. So Im going to move Kird Ape to red and I want to add Loam Lion to white. What R and W would you drop from my list to make this change? Im thinking Icatian Javelineers and Searing Spear.

Id also like to try out 10 more dual lands. Im thinking drop 5 vivds + Masticore, Sensei's Divining Top, Chromatic Lantern, Percursor Golem, Quicksand. We've seen a lot of RWG, GWB, and RBG agro decks and Id like to help these decks with their mana bases. Would this be a good change?

 

[Eric Chan]

Nice! Would you be doubling up on something like shocklands, or finding a new cycle of duals to add? Either way, that seems like a great replacement for Vivids, which really only benefit durdly decks that splash too many colours.

Speaking for myself only, I think it's a little dangerous to cheat on the gold card count in that way, but to each his own. You could always increase the size of your gold sections, if you really want to squeeze in more cards. That, or temporarily swap out some of your staples for a couple of drafts - even Bloodbraid Elf could use a break once in a while! If you have to cut some mono-coloured cards, though, the two you listed are as good candidates as any.

 

[Sterling]

I dont feel the need to break singleton yet so I wont be doubling up anytime soon.

I get what youre saying about it being a little dangerous with cheating on gold cards but I feel I dont really need to worry that much with Ape and Lion.

So I got to thinking today. Instead of adding all 10 lands Im going to instead go with 7 and 3 blue signets. UB, UW, and UR are very controlling colors that love extra mana. Im also not happy with some of the mana rocks. Chromatic Lantern is just not seeing play and as much as I thought Gilded Lotus was needed its just not. If a deck that plays mana rocks has reached 5 mana it typically doesnt want to play another mana rock.

So I think were are going to try these changes out after FNM:

-5 Vivids
- Chromatic Lantern
- Gilded Lotus
- Fellwar Stone
- Masticore
- Quicksand

+ Dimir Signet
+ Izzet Signet
+ Azorius Signet
+ Hinterland Harbor
+ Razorverge Thicket
+ Twilight Mire
+ Copperline Gorge
+ Isolated Chapel
+ Rugged Prairie
+ Graven Cairns

 

[Sterling]

So great results with these changes. The players noticed right away and said they were loving it. We saw 2 Bant, RB, RG, RU, BG. For the second time ever Baneslayers protection actually came into play as she laughed at the opposing Thundermaw. I played the RB deck (posted in decks that 3-0 thread) and I finally got to live the dream of Skullclamp with Bloodghast and I can't wait to do it again! Take that CML Chandra Pyromaster proved very usefull as she took out some blockers to end the game.

 

[Sterling]

Drafted a GW deck after FNM. It was the most "fair" deck Ive ever drafted and guess what...I got STOMPED!!! I cant remember what was all in it but it started off with mana dorks, had some of the best 2 drops in Goyf, Thalia, Voice, Imposing and had some nice curve toppers with Vorapede and Baneslayer and a couple Planeswalkers . First game was against Grixis Control. He had so many cards that could 2 for 1 me. Flames, Arc Trail, and Consuming Vapors + other burn made it very difficult to keep anything on the table. To top things off he also had JTMS and Bribery. Turn 4 Bribery was game for me since my only removal was a Path. My second game was against GB. He was the one stealling all the good green cards I was looking for. Again he had tons of removal that kept me from getting anywhere. I knew during the draft that it was a rather weak deck but I also thought I could steal some wins with quick creatures, Jitte, and turn 4 Plow Under/Baneslayer or turn 3 Elspeth Knight Errant/Garruk Relentless.

I didnt want to go into Green I wouldve prefered black but I took too long to decide my second color and the mana dorks made me think green was wide open. This is the one draft where staying open actually screwed me in the end. I think in hindsight if I wouldve taken the Phyrexian Arena 2nd pick (I expected it to table since it usually is very underrated in our group) it wouldve made for a completely different draft.

 

[Eric Chan]

Sterling, are you by any chance running Gavony Township? I find that this is the glue that holds all good Selesnya aggro decks together. It's an underrated card, to be sure, but I have no qualms saying that it's far and away the best GW gold card in my cube right now. While it does its best work against other creature decks, buffing your army until fair fights quickly become unfair, it also does good work against most removal spells. Red direct damage, in particular, like Arc Trail is less effective when you have open mana up. Against control decks, it also lets you keep some reserves back in your hand in case you suspect a sweeper. Just pumping a grizzly bear or two every turn forces them to deal with each threat individually, and is a nice guard against overextension.

Those removal heavy opponents, who are looking to turn the game into one of attrition, also illustrate why I'm a big fan of Loyal Cathar. A 2/2 vigilance creature might not look like much, but if your opponent isn't interested in battling in the red zone, and just wants to nuke each and every dork you play, Cathar makes them think twice about going down that route. Also not completely embarrassing is Doomed Traveler, particularly if you support a small Human tribal theme.

The other thing I'll note is that your deck might actually have been more midrange than you let on. Between Vorapede, Baneslayer, and Plow Under, that feels like a lot of five drops for what sounds like an aggressive deck. I think that picking a clear direction during your draft - going small, with all weenie creatures, and your curve topping out at four, or going midrange, with more mana dorks and then beefy creatures and planeswalkers to accelerate into - might've helped you streamline your strategy, and let you have a solid plan for each of your opponents.