Sets Battle for Zendikar Spoilers

[Grillo_Parlante]

I can already tell you how most of the casual players will run endless one.

They will look at it, their eyes will drop out of their sockets, and then they will try to jam it into some sort of ramp deck, greedly holding onto it until the last possible second to make the biggest endless one possible. In the event they don't die with it in hand, they will cast it and abrupty have it either be killed, bounced, or chump blocked, until they die. They they will try this a couple times, until the crushing specter of defeat will make them ask me "why is this even in the cube."

I already went through this with ulamog's crusher and it that betrays; hence why I am now running artisan of kozilek, maul splicer, pelakka wurm, and hellkite igniter. You at least get something for your huge mana investment if your giant monster dies.

And this is the whole problem with endless one: it actually scales horribly, since the higher the mana investment on the threat, the more critical it have an ETB effect to compensate partially for the possibility of its abrupt death: especially on a card without trample or evasion. This isn't a card thats about winning games, its about shoring up defects in your deck by giving you a creature you can always cast, but in return is never quite satisfying. It fills the exact same niche that cards like primal clay and urza's avenger were designed to fill back in the day.

 

[ahadabans]

That's one way to look at Endless One. The other is to think of it as a creature you play when it makes the most sense. There are a lot of cards in cube you can hold and get more value out of later, but that's part of the game (knowing when "less is more" essentially).

Cards like Pelakka Wurm offer way more value than Endless One on the top end. But if you just need a body at 2cc, it rots in your hand. Endless One is always castable at every point in the game. That's a lot of flexibility. How many times have you been on 4 mana and had a 3 drop and a 5 drop in your hand but no 4? Endless One lets you play a 4/4 for 4 instead of that 3 drop, and depending on the matchup that can have a lot of impact (because a 4/4 is almost certainly going to have more board impact than the 3 drop unless you are running stupid shit like Brimaz).

Later in the game, it's an incredibly scalable card. When you have 10 lands in play and no cards in hand, I don't think it matters all that much if you spend all of that mana on your top deck, even if it dies to doom blade (I'd be very happy top decking this card). If they don't have the doom blade, they die in two turns. If they do, good for them. Pretty great scenario from a card that you put in your deck as a 2 drop.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Endless One lets you play a 4/4 for 4 instead of that 3 drop, and depending on the matchup that can have a lot of impact (because a 4/4 is almost certainly going to have more board impact than the 3 drop....

Realistically though, pretty much any cube 3 drop is going to be better than a vanilla four drop; and exchanging a 2 mana doom blade for a 10 mana endless one is a great exchange.

Oblivion sower is a really nice eldrazi to run for casual players: reasonable cost, impactful body, and a fun ETB for them.

 

[Eric Chan]

I suspect that, for a lot of people who end up cubing Endless One, the optimal play in many games will be to cast it on as a 2/2, but that (as Grillo described eloquently above) non-Spike players in our playgroups will rarely end up actually doing this.

As RavebornMuse put it, this actually feels like a very Spikey card - it's a pretty decent rate at 2/2 for , 3/3 for , and 4/4 for . It doesn't get any better from there, though, so it's actually a bottom-of-the-curve filler for a deck that doesn't have enough low drops. How many drafters actually deploy it that way remains to be seen.

 

[ahadabans]

Realistically though, pretty much any cube 3 drop is going to be better than a vanilla four drop

Is that really true though? How many 3 drops have 4/4 stats? Most 3's have ETB or other mechanics that make up for the (typically) weak body. But what if you just need some beef? 4/4's push through most (all?) walls and they are decent clocks too. They generally demand an answer (and are out of most burn range too, so can be a 2 for 1). That utility 3 drop in your hand may not have that same impact.

Endless one keeps you on curve and that keeps pressure on your opponent. In my experience, just getting something on the board (even if not the most efficient creature) is a powerful move (maybe more so in my durdle environment, not sure honestly). While I agree that a vanilla 4/4 for 4 is not a max value play, it should be better than the average 3 CMC card.

; and exchanging a 2 mana doom blade for a 10 mana endless one is a great exchange.

It is. In a vacuum. But you have to consider the board state and how you ended up at this point in the game. If I have 10 mana, that means we have been playing for awhile. If I'm running something aggressive and you are control, I've already lost the game (especially if I'm top decking and you have a fist full of cards). In that scenario, I could draw Inkwell Leviathan and it probably wouldn't matter, so it seems moot that you can kill my 10/10 with your fist full of cards.

If instead we are both playing similar deck types and are both in top deck mode, the odds of you having that doom blade for my 10/10 monster is low. If you luck sack it off the top (like I did Endless One, to be fair), we are probably back to a stalemate. If not though, it's a potentially game winning play. And the latter scenario is probably more likely. If we got to this point in the game, we both probably used all our removal, otherwise one of us would be dead already.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

What I mean is that in general trading a 2 mana interaction for a 10 mana interaction is favorable.

I mean sure, we could come up with scenarios where endless one is awesome--I have ion storm in play, all the KTK lords etc--but as a big mana threat the lack of any ETB is a huge problem, and its a problem precisely because of cheap interaction. The more common situation you find yourself in is one where spell velocity matters, and if thats the dictate of the game, you can't be spending huge amounts of mana only to have your turns investment effortlessly neutralized and your op following up their removal with a second or third spell. Exchanges like that are how you lose games.

I can't imagine many realistic situations where I would want a rumbling baloth over a cube three drop. Sure, again, we could dream up situations where investing 4 mana in a 4/4 is great: that happens sometimes in legacy or vintage where in turns out the high powered deck collapses to a single serra angel. Those really aren't normal situations though, and for the most part I would rather put out a goblin sharpshooter than a rumbling baloth: especially with a card I can keep on telling myself is going to be sweeter the longer I wait (and deep down want to see huge).

But again, is this even a fun eldrazi for casuals to run, or just a disappointment? This reminds me too much of ulamog's crusher to get behind, even in that application.

 

[Diakonov]

I'd rather run Chimeric Mass if I wanted an effect like Endless One. It's an artifact, dodges wraths, can be tutored for with Trinket Mage, can be played for zero as welding fodder, etc.

Re: vanilla stuff, or "filler", for my cube I think having some amount is beneficial. I try to keep them at a low enough power level such that a deck using too many of them can be outclassed by well-built, greater-than-the-sum-of-their-parts synergy engines. I believe that gameplay benefits from at least a small number of warm bodies as glue to hold decks together. Also, if they are generically sought after by a lot of drafters, it adds to draft tension.

 

[Lucre]

I'm pretty pumped about the new black walker but I'm not really seeing any other game changers here except for the new lands giving more room for #diversedesign.

Green warden is kinda sick though and I hope we get more charms like that new jilt.

 

[Lucre]

I think we're about to get into a definitional war similar to the "tempo" debate that will derail this thread and offer little value, but since I stirred the pot, let me be the first to really address it.

Filler is there. Filler is here. Filler is now, and filler is you and me. Anything is filler depending on your angle. Doom Blade might be called "filler removal" because it doesn't serve any purpose but to box-check cube removal counts. Savannah Lions might be called "white aggro filler" for a similar reason. Same with Disenchant or perhaps Boros Signet. Somebody will disagree with all of those assessments and won't be wrong or right for it. So, recognize from the start: filler has a lot of meanings and isn't a useful term until contextualized.

Dude did you guys have some tedious debate about tempo without me!?!

 

[Eric Chan]

Speaking of filler (french) vanilla guys

He resembles one of my favourite cards ever - Dauntless Dourbark - and has a tree in his picture, but somehow is not a treefolk.

 

[RavebornMuse]

I kinda like it, actually! Seems like a spicy new option for green, intersecting with the 5c shenanigans it can support well in my cube and the ever-adored +1/+1 counters.

 

[Lucre]

Isn't like double eternal witness the six riptide Always wanted but didn't realize was clunky and bombastic?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

but as a big mana threat

Ah, there's our "problem"! You are looking at this card in a fundamentally different way then ahadabans and me (and others I guess), because this isn't a big mana threat! It's a scalable threat! I would never compare Endless One with Ulamog's Crusher, because it doesn't cost 8 mana. It costs whatever you need it to cost. Your Doom Blade scenario falls entirely flat for me because, yes, while I did invest 10 mana in Endless One, I did so at a moment where I was able to do so (topdeck war presumably). If I had been in need of the card in an earlier turn of the game, I would have cast it as a 2/2, a 3/3 or a 4/4, and the Doom Blade argument would look ridiculous. I can't stress enough that Endless One is a much more versatile card than you make it out to be. Yes, the more mana you can sink in to it the more of a threat it becomes, but what makes this card desirable for me is that its stats allow it to block most other cards in my cybe when matching their casting cost (i.e. For it can block most other threes, etc.), making it a powerful tool in any deck that is looking for a late game threat that can also have impact in the early game.

The comparison with Chimeric Mass is interesting, because I think these cards play different roles. Endless One blocks a lot better (at least the turn it is cast) and does in fact play nicely with +1/+1 counters matter cards, making it a better defensive play and intersecting with an entirely different subset of cards, whereas Chimeric Mass is more of a resilient, harder to remove finisher that can survive wrath effects.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Ah, there's our "problem"! You are looking at this card in a fundamentally different way

No, im not. I know its not purely a big mana threat, but that topic is relevant to the way casuals will play it, which was one of the reasons given for running it. I already explained why getting a vanilla body at any mana point isn't great in cube.

At any rate the fact that an almost identical card has existed for years without impact is a pretty good indication how this version will play out this time.

Not that I want to really argue about this, because like every pitches to force argument, we know deep down we shouldn't, but we still will. I mean, here we are trying to come up with reasons to diffiantiate it from a previous almost identical card that no one cares about. Can't we just admit our infactuation is a product of new car smell and because it pitches to force? Than we can just all run it and two months from now stealth cut it, and silently look at ourselves in knowing shame at what we did and why.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

No, im not. I know its not purely a big mana threat, but that topic is relevant to the way casuals will play it, which was one of the reasons given for running it. I already explained why getting a vanilla body at any mana point isn't great in cube.

At any rate the fact that an almost identical card has existed for years without impact is a pretty good indication how this version will play out this time.

Not that I want to really argue about this, because like every pitches to force argument, we know deep down we shouldn't, but we still will. I mean, here we are trying to come up with reasons to diffiantiate it from a previous almost identical card that no one cares about. Can't we just admit our infactuation is a product of new car smell and because it pitches to force? Than we can just all run it and two months from now stealth cut it, and silently look at ourselves in knowing shame at what we did and why.

In my mind getting a vanilla body at a fixed mana point is bad, no one would play Grizzly Bears, but getting a vanilla body at any mana point is great, because it allows you to be flexible. I also don't think Endless One should be evaluated as if it was a carbon copy of Chimeric Mass, because in my mind those cards behave very differently in play. We're just talking at walls here though, because whatever point you're trying to get across is just making me go "no, you don't get what I mean" and vice versa.


*shrug* Let's just agree to disagree then. Maybe I will have to admit the card doesn't work out as I thought it would, but "hanging my head in knowing shame" for wanting to try out a card instead of dismissing it without giving it a chance? Not going to happen.

In other news, I am pretty certain that some of these will make the ULD cut!

Don't know about the green one, but the rest looks really solid!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Faff off Grillo, I have a cube with Eldrazi and Proliferate themes!

 

[Jason Waddell]

In my mind getting a vanilla body at a fixed mana point is bad, no one would play Grizzly Bears, but getting a vanilla body at any mana point is great, because it allows you to be flexible. I also don't think Endless One should be evaluated as if it was a carbon copy of Chimeric Mass, because in my mind those cards behave very differently in play. We're just talking at walls here though, because whatever point you're trying to get across is just making me go "no, you don't get what I mean" and vice versa.


*shrug* Let's just agree to disagree then. Maybe I will have to admit the card doesn't work out as I thought it would, but "hanging my head in knowing shame" for wanting to try out a card instead of dismissing it without giving it a chance? Not going to happen.

In other news, I am pretty certain that some of these will make the ULD cut!

Don't know about the green one, but the rest looks really solid!

Time to bring back Knight of the Reliquary if you cut him?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Hey knight of the reliquary is a girl. Also where is the common or uncommon cycle of fixing?

 

[Jason Waddell]

The other four look great.

Play Sandstone Bridge, give Knight of the Reliquary vigilance. Attack. Sacrifice a land mid-combat to pump KOTR, grab Looming Spires to give it +1/+1 and first strike.

 

[CML]

I kinda prefer Talrand, since he's not capped on army size and the army he makes is evasive, but you do you.

Also:

Ooooooo! Well, I wanted blue to have a pillar of flame variant and dissipate wasn't that great when I tried it... I'll give it a shot!
FSR: You're the other guy here I can recall having the obscenely low curve. Is this too good?

I could swear this was a card from fallen empires...
interesting. Activating it basically costs 7, since you need 6 other lands, which kinda puts it out of range for "just for value" land slots for me, since you need to put a lot of work in to reach 7. On the other hand, lands being hordeling outburst is a nice upside.

spawning bed fair bit worse than this hilarious card, right?

 

[Jason Waddell]

Somehow I never made the connection that the activation cost on Urza's Factory is Tron mana.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Banishing Light at isn't really efficient, but this is a nice mana sink in the late game and downright scale-tipping scary once you reach 8+ mana!

 

[Goldenpineapple]

That's three 'o-rings' in a single set at three different rarities. Jeez.

pew pew pew pew

I'm glad we got spell lands back- I think the old ones are generally spicier but these are fine too.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Banishing Light at isn't really efficient, but this is a nice mana sink in the late game and downright scale-tipping scary once you reach 8+ mana!

I screamed when I saw this until I noticed the cost. O-Ring isn't exactly making waves here, but I like the idea of a more flexible way to answer enchants and planeswalkers, because enchants run wild over here. Really wish it was , because I'm not sure if it would be played over here at , but I'm extremely tempted.

Of the spell lands... For me, at least, I think only the White one will actually land in my ULD.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Of the spell lands... For me, at least, I think only the White one will actually land in my ULD.

The blue one will be perfect to stall a big creature for a turn while you get ready to play your haymakers!