People seem to love or hate this card. Where do you fall?
Card/Deck Bonfire of the Damned
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Congratulations! You both topdecked your only out, and now its even cheaper just in case you need a complete luck based blowout!
I think miracle is much like storm, in that wing shards, astral steel, ground rift, haze of rage are all fine, but those aren't the cards that people think of when you say storm.
I think miracle is much like storm, in that wing shards, astral steel, ground rift, haze of rage are all fine, but those aren't the cards that people think of when you say storm.
Dislike miracle. Would rather have something besides a topdeck determine whether or not you can fireball a huge / huge. I don't have top in my list, but my distaste for the mechanic "topdeck for undercosted effects" led me to cut them out entirely.
I ran sudden demise for a bit but another super cheap plague wind vs aggro was just too good; lavalanche is in tentatively as people still want the effect. The only time I've seen it cast was appropriately devastating.
I ran sudden demise for a bit but another super cheap plague wind vs aggro was just too good; lavalanche is in tentatively as people still want the effect. The only time I've seen it cast was appropriately devastating.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Love it, love it happening to me in an almost masochistic way
I've had one experience with it and it turned an unloseable game into an unwinnable game. I don't think it's a fun card. Do you think it's necessary for something?
I hate this card and everything it stands for.
Yet all of my players love this card. To a man.
So I'm torn. I don't like how luck-based it is, so I've currently swapped it out for Sudden Demise. But apparently that's not enough to satiate my players - they still ask me every draft where the Bonfire is.
What to do, what to do...
Yet all of my players love this card. To a man.
So I'm torn. I don't like how luck-based it is, so I've currently swapped it out for Sudden Demise. But apparently that's not enough to satiate my players - they still ask me every draft where the Bonfire is.
What to do, what to do...
Do they like it for topdeck miracle bullshit mode, or for XXR mode?
Well, I am looking to bolster control in my cube, more specifically, anti-aggro control, and was planning to run Bonfire (and the already included Terminus) alongside 3x Brainstorm.
For comparison I really dislike Entreat the Angels. I think there is a fundamental difference between an underpriced sweeper and an underpriced finisher.
For comparison I really dislike Entreat the Angels. I think there is a fundamental difference between an underpriced sweeper and an underpriced finisher.
I feel so bad whenever I play it, but I love it so much!
I really like how little play there is to miracles. Like suddenly the miracle is here and you'll be damned if you aren't playing it so everything is changed forever. It's like one of the parts of the game that is like genuinely surprising and terrifying. What a funny thrill.
I think the joy mixed up with the shame is part of the appeal actually.
I really like how little play there is to miracles. Like suddenly the miracle is here and you'll be damned if you aren't playing it so everything is changed forever. It's like one of the parts of the game that is like genuinely surprising and terrifying. What a funny thrill.
I think the joy mixed up with the shame is part of the appeal actually.
Hate it.
Definitely the former.
I'm actually okay with Entreat the Angels. There's less feel-bads from plopping down a couple of 4/4's, especially if the other player already had a good board position. As an aggro player, I've been on the receiving end of more than one opponent's miracled Entreat, and it's often a fun puzzle to try and finagle my way around their newly assembled board presence. (One mana Repeals become positively orgasmic.) Now, if those Entreats had been Bonfires...
I think of it completely differently. Instead of "you'll be damned if you aren't playing it" because it's so good, it's more like "well I guess I'd better play this because it's awful if I draw it."
i dont think of bonfire as a control card.
the card is my definition of unfun. the miracle version of the card is so absurd it is basically impossible to play around, yet the regular side is utter garbage. it is the most swingy card i can think of in the past several years of magic other than perhaps Cruel Ultimatum which costs THAT. there's no choices with this card, you just draw it and you play it or it sits in your hand and it is awful. remember saying that you want to increase decision density? this does the opposite. this makes all your decisions for the entire game irrelevant. and honestly anyone that played while it was in standard is probably sick to death of the card. i even casted plenty of miracle'd bonfires myself, its not like i was only on the receiving end of this card. this card is despicable and makes me hate magic. i've never ever ever hated a card as much as this card. did they not even playtest this garbage?
it is more fun when it can be setup (even though it is stronger) because it feels less like "lol you lose horribly for no reason now". But I don't think that'll happen enough in cube to justify it. And the feelbad from it is not worth the good.
im sure you've all seen this gif:
there's a lot of great reactions that these folks have
the card is my definition of unfun. the miracle version of the card is so absurd it is basically impossible to play around, yet the regular side is utter garbage. it is the most swingy card i can think of in the past several years of magic other than perhaps Cruel Ultimatum which costs THAT. there's no choices with this card, you just draw it and you play it or it sits in your hand and it is awful. remember saying that you want to increase decision density? this does the opposite. this makes all your decisions for the entire game irrelevant. and honestly anyone that played while it was in standard is probably sick to death of the card. i even casted plenty of miracle'd bonfires myself, its not like i was only on the receiving end of this card. this card is despicable and makes me hate magic. i've never ever ever hated a card as much as this card. did they not even playtest this garbage?
it is more fun when it can be setup (even though it is stronger) because it feels less like "lol you lose horribly for no reason now". But I don't think that'll happen enough in cube to justify it. And the feelbad from it is not worth the good.
im sure you've all seen this gif:
there's a lot of great reactions that these folks have
it really isnt a control card and it doesn't help control.
think about all the times youve seen a control deck stabilize with some creatures out like say a resto angel, an augur of bolas, and a snapcaster, and a removal spell or two in hand, some of which is going to be sorcery speed. the opponent has out some red 2/xs and 3/xs. the control player maybe like 10 life, pretty solid spot right? BAM miracle bonfire for 4 or more, you're dead. in this spot no other card would do this. not hellrider, not hero of oxid ridge, nothing. sure, if you have a counterspell you'll get it, but requiring control decks to rely on counterspells instead of removal again does the opposite of what you say you want.
bonfire is not just a board wipe, it is a 1-sided board wipe, a burn spell, and an overrun all rolled into one. except only when you randomly draw it. it is the absurdest when you're playing a critical mass of creatures to alpha strike them after you've 4-for-1'd them and burned them, which isn't the hallmark of a control deck.
think about all the times youve seen a control deck stabilize with some creatures out like say a resto angel, an augur of bolas, and a snapcaster, and a removal spell or two in hand, some of which is going to be sorcery speed. the opponent has out some red 2/xs and 3/xs. the control player maybe like 10 life, pretty solid spot right? BAM miracle bonfire for 4 or more, you're dead. in this spot no other card would do this. not hellrider, not hero of oxid ridge, nothing. sure, if you have a counterspell you'll get it, but requiring control decks to rely on counterspells instead of removal again does the opposite of what you say you want.
bonfire is not just a board wipe, it is a 1-sided board wipe, a burn spell, and an overrun all rolled into one. except only when you randomly draw it. it is the absurdest when you're playing a critical mass of creatures to alpha strike them after you've 4-for-1'd them and burned them, which isn't the hallmark of a control deck.
That's certainly one aspect to the feeling. It's a pretty complex one. You can slice it that way if you like, it certainly is a part of my appreciation but I'm probably thinking it while laughing.
I've played bonfire mainly in control decks, though my first few experiences of it were in midranged decks.
Most of the times that bonfire has done a lot of work for me, it could have just been another wrath. I guess it's because I pick it up often for control decks and those decks I play mainly things like man lands or epochrasite to win. I appreciate the 4 damage or so I've gotten from her but that usually only equated to an additional turn (and hence a card they didn't see) taken from my opponent. When I've played the card in an aggro deck, it's been more for the fact that it is a fair card to draw when I have 3 mana or so, but it also just give the deck a very explosive lategame, I guess like any burn spell. I'd probably be just as excited to play a blaze that also told a creature it could not block for a turn.
Bonfire is one of those cards that seems super cute and important to me as we see multicolour aggro and tribal aggro becoming more popular in the sweetest of cubes. Big Red is having to learn to come into it's own with jackal pup's stock steadily plummeting. I've noticed a lot of decks are on the splash red plan, you used to see that a lot but now you have way less of a fight with the guy that just cuts red. Red's ability to do incidental damage carries a lot more weight in this era where every spell can come tacked to an attacking body and planeswalkers abound. I really like that red has it's own expensive suite of incredibly high power level concentrated cards, I always sorta thought it could use a couple more if it was ever going to stop feeling as pigeon holed as it did. Lightning bolt and incinerate pack a lot of punch for their cost but I think they just fit too well into RDW etc and it didn't help any.
I like how in the source video (here), Forsythe and BDM kinda turn around and go 'we've.... fucked up'
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I was just thinking I had too many red sweepers in my cube, I guess if I were to ask which one I should cut this would be the answer.
I think cost reduction is entirely the wrong way to go about miracles. It was mentioned in the mothership articles at the time that it was tough to pick costs and effects such that the miracle is actually exciting when you get it. That is, if you have 10 lands in play and topdeck Terminus whilst hellbent, the miracle means nothing. That's what led the team to create the two miracles with XX in their costs. We could do something else entirely.
What if instead of costing less when it's the first card you draw, the miracle completely changes the effect on the card?
e.g. (overpowered nonsense that nonetheless is probably not grb)
Telling Time What To Do
1U Instant
Scry 2, then draw a card. (or your favorite cantrip plus here. Literal Telling Time is probably fine.)
Miracle -- Instead, take an extra turn after this one.
Piercing Midday Sun
XR Sorcery
~ deals X damage to target creature or player.
Miracle -- Instead, ~ deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures. Those creatures can't block this turn.
Leave This World
W Sorcery
Put target creature into its owner's library second from the top. Its controller gains 3 life.
Miracle -- Instead, put all creatures on the bottom of their owners' libraries.
Maybe Lotuses This Year
1G Sorcery
You may play an additional land this turn.
Draw a card.
Miracle -- Instead, search your library for a land card and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library. (nonbasic ok! untapped!)
Hymn in Blood
BB Sorcery
Target player draws two cards and loses 2 life.
Miracle -- Instead, target player discards two cards at random.
This gives us the opportunity to make both halves of each card good instead of massively over- or under-costing one of the effects. The miracle should be 'better' than the regular card but not in all situations, such that a) you're not miserable about an unplayable card stuck in your hand and b) you have an interesting choice to make right when you draw the card. Downside: it is extremely audible when you draw a miracle. That's pretty likely to be why the real mechanic doesn't work like this.
What if instead of costing less when it's the first card you draw, the miracle completely changes the effect on the card?
e.g. (overpowered nonsense that nonetheless is probably not grb)
Telling Time What To Do
1U Instant
Scry 2, then draw a card. (or your favorite cantrip plus here. Literal Telling Time is probably fine.)
Miracle -- Instead, take an extra turn after this one.
Piercing Midday Sun
XR Sorcery
~ deals X damage to target creature or player.
Miracle -- Instead, ~ deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures. Those creatures can't block this turn.
Leave This World
W Sorcery
Put target creature into its owner's library second from the top. Its controller gains 3 life.
Miracle -- Instead, put all creatures on the bottom of their owners' libraries.
Maybe Lotuses This Year
1G Sorcery
You may play an additional land this turn.
Draw a card.
Miracle -- Instead, search your library for a land card and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library. (nonbasic ok! untapped!)
Hymn in Blood
BB Sorcery
Target player draws two cards and loses 2 life.
Miracle -- Instead, target player discards two cards at random.
This gives us the opportunity to make both halves of each card good instead of massively over- or under-costing one of the effects. The miracle should be 'better' than the regular card but not in all situations, such that a) you're not miserable about an unplayable card stuck in your hand and b) you have an interesting choice to make right when you draw the card. Downside: it is extremely audible when you draw a miracle. That's pretty likely to be why the real mechanic doesn't work like this.
Me either. Part of me thinks it's a cool mechanic. The other part of me sees it as an additional element of luck in a game that really doesn't need more of that. Cube games tend to be pretty swingy anyway due to all the crazy powerful cards running around, so honestly miracle cards fit right in when you get right down to it.
Laz
Developer
I actually run a lot of miracles in my cube. I do refuse to run Bonfire though. Bonfire is just a generally miserable card, both to play and to be on the receiving end of. I actually really like the effect in XXR mode, but the card simply has far too many 'oops, I win' moments for me to be comfortable with it.
These are the miracles that I run at the moment:
Entreat the Angels
Temporal Mastery
Devastation Tide
Terminus
Thunderous Wrath
Reforge the Soul
Of these, I could see how Entreat or Temporal might raise some concerns, especially on the 'oops, I win' meter, but they haven't proved to be GRBS thus far.
Entreat the Angels has not been a problem, simply because it doesn't really do much before turn 5-6 even when played as a miracle, and doesn't win the game that instant. It does put the onus on the opponent to sweep if control, and often against more aggressive/midrange decks, it seems that the Angels are forced to be blockers.
Temporal Mastery has some 'oops, I win' moments, but given its color, these generally have nothing to do with whether it was played as a miracle or not. Playing it for 7 and getting two turns of attacks with big finishers usually would win anyway in these situations. I have seen a pretty nasty 'Miracle Temporal Mastery, play Aurelia the Warleader...' turn, but I think that is an exception, not a rule.
Miracles have proven good fun, whether the 'I will just put this back with Brainstorm and... It's a miracle!' or the 'Oh, burn you for 5, level up Figure of Destiny, hit you for 2. 13 right?' versions.
These are the miracles that I run at the moment:
Entreat the Angels
Temporal Mastery
Devastation Tide
Terminus
Thunderous Wrath
Reforge the Soul
Of these, I could see how Entreat or Temporal might raise some concerns, especially on the 'oops, I win' meter, but they haven't proved to be GRBS thus far.
Entreat the Angels has not been a problem, simply because it doesn't really do much before turn 5-6 even when played as a miracle, and doesn't win the game that instant. It does put the onus on the opponent to sweep if control, and often against more aggressive/midrange decks, it seems that the Angels are forced to be blockers.
Temporal Mastery has some 'oops, I win' moments, but given its color, these generally have nothing to do with whether it was played as a miracle or not. Playing it for 7 and getting two turns of attacks with big finishers usually would win anyway in these situations. I have seen a pretty nasty 'Miracle Temporal Mastery, play Aurelia the Warleader...' turn, but I think that is an exception, not a rule.
Miracles have proven good fun, whether the 'I will just put this back with Brainstorm and... It's a miracle!' or the 'Oh, burn you for 5, level up Figure of Destiny, hit you for 2. 13 right?' versions.
Hmm... this is making me a little more tempted to push a Miracle subtheme. But isn't Reforge the Soul kind of, you know, awful? I've even cut Wheel of Fortune from my cube at this point.
I'm running Temporal Mastery because I think it's a great card. Paying 7 for an extra turn really isn't the worst thing you could do especially if you just need two attack phases, and there are plenty of ways in blue especially to manipulate the 1U broken version, so IMO it rewards deck building and player skill. I personally love the design.
I do have Bonfire in my list at the moment, but it is definitely one of the most swingy cards in the cube and I'm not liking it. It's probably coming out in my next update because it can be GRBS sometimes (love that acronym BTW).
On a related note, I don't really subscribe to running cards which can instantly turn a game around even if you are losing horribly unless they cost a lot of mana (more than 6) or they are "build around me cards" (things like Upheaval where you need to do some sort of planning to maximize them). I take this much farther than most people. I don't even run things like Baneslayer, Wurmcoil or Grave Titan because these cards are such ridiculous momentum killers and they require absolutely zero skill to build around. Just make a deck with enough land to get to 5/6 mana. These cards universally make those decks better and I hate that kind of card design personally.
I do have Bonfire in my list at the moment, but it is definitely one of the most swingy cards in the cube and I'm not liking it. It's probably coming out in my next update because it can be GRBS sometimes (love that acronym BTW).
On a related note, I don't really subscribe to running cards which can instantly turn a game around even if you are losing horribly unless they cost a lot of mana (more than 6) or they are "build around me cards" (things like Upheaval where you need to do some sort of planning to maximize them). I take this much farther than most people. I don't even run things like Baneslayer, Wurmcoil or Grave Titan because these cards are such ridiculous momentum killers and they require absolutely zero skill to build around. Just make a deck with enough land to get to 5/6 mana. These cards universally make those decks better and I hate that kind of card design personally.
I dig some swingy cards. If you are winning with your Rude Awakening I think you probably earned it. Bonfire is just weird because you don't have to work for it too hard, but then again, you don't need to work too hard to remand an important spell out of nowhere or play something big two turns early or I dunno attack with geist or similarly sweet things.
I think people hate Bonfire because of the dumb way it plays and how non interactive, non tanky it feels, but I kinda like it for that reason. I like that it feels like it takes the game out of my hands, and I like that it is a big powerlevel spike for a red player, but I like those aspects very separately. There is something icky about the way they come together that I can understand the poor reaction to.
I think it gives people these, I lost to a random topdeck feelbads, but really, you lost to a very good red spell, a red spell that's better than a 2/2 stone rain or dork removal, well how bout that!
I think people hate Bonfire because of the dumb way it plays and how non interactive, non tanky it feels, but I kinda like it for that reason. I like that it feels like it takes the game out of my hands, and I like that it is a big powerlevel spike for a red player, but I like those aspects very separately. There is something icky about the way they come together that I can understand the poor reaction to.
I think it gives people these, I lost to a random topdeck feelbads, but really, you lost to a very good red spell, a red spell that's better than a 2/2 stone rain or dork removal, well how bout that!