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Brad

Brad

I've been fighting an internal battle between me wanting to make the deepest format possible vs my playgroup being half beginners/intermediates that can't handle that much text or super tricky interactions. They aren't going to remember that they have a dozen effects waiting in the graveyard and they aren't likely to re-read their Dread Wanderer that's already dead to find out. My players certainly aren't going to be able to keep track of their opponent's graveyards and point an accurate exiling spell at it.

I don't want to abandon The Black Cube, but it seems inherently complicated by using the graveyard as a second hand in a lot of decks. I have an idea for a fix, but it definitely feels like it's going to neuter things. Designing to the level my group is at rather than plunging a few into the deep end every time is proving problematic.

Even when I look at lower powered cards, a lot of those have a ton of text, too. It's a struggle.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think activity on the boards naturally always ebbs and flows. We're a small enough community that a couple people being busy will dap the momentum a bit, but I don't think it's much to worry about.

I did my first retail draft of who knows how long. Built a 4-color control deck and started 6-1 before getting shut down by two perfect prismari decks. I've been testing Strixhaven in cube a lot and will compile my thoughts into a video in the next couple days.

Also, we have a special guest for tonight's riptide podcast....
 
ravnic

ravnic

Brad said:
I've been fighting an internal battle between me wanting to make the deepest format possible vs my playgroup being half beginners/intermediates that can't handle that much text or super tricky interactions. They aren't going to remember that they have a dozen effects waiting in the graveyard and they aren't likely to re-read their Dread Wanderer that's already dead to find out. My players certainly aren't going to be able to keep track of their opponent's graveyards and point an accurate exiling spell at it.

I don't want to abandon The Black Cube, but it seems inherently complicated by using the graveyard as a second hand in a lot of decks. I have an idea for a fix, but it definitely feels like it's going to neuter things. Designing to the level my group is at rather than plunging a few into the deep end every time is proving problematic.

Even when I look at lower powered cards, a lot of those have a ton of text, too. It's a struggle.
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Maybe you don't have to abandon that strategy? I think complex and simple strategies can co-exist and be equally succesful. Beginners don't tend to draft dredge or madness decks in my cube as well, but a simple aggro, ramp or "I picked everthing with the word flying on it" strategies are competitive enough to not go 0-3 0-6.

Just because you like really deep and complex decks (so do I), it doesn't mean that every deck has to be one. Maybe you could add some strong cards (for your environment), that are simple, so beginners will have some tools and picks that will make them confident about what they're doing, yet there is enough room for top tier complex strategies?
 
Brad

Brad

True. I'll look into specifically bolstering the simpler strategies.

The massive amount of text generated by having a graveyard effect on many cards or an extra sentence for exiling something is a lot to deal with while drafting.



There's a total of 63 additional words on the latter three cards and a good percentage of my removal has those extra ~15 words to get an exile.

I have considered getting rid of repeatable yard effects so that exile isn't as crucial on the removal spells. Embalm or something is a one shot effect from the yard. Exiling it would be nice, but not nearly as important as exiling any given Phoenix. This also condenses the effects into a single, recognizable keyword rather than a varying addition of ~20 words. But it limits options considerably.
 
ravnic

ravnic

I don't think however that the exile clause on Incendiary Flow or Dissipate is really taxing much from your drafters, especially if these clauses are common. They will have to read them, yes, but it's so easily understood that it is more like an added "scry 1" or "draw a card". You shouldn't look into word count only when checking for complexity, as not every word counts the same.



She has only 16 words on her card, compared to the 24/21 of the burn/counterspell you've posted, yet I have to read her again and again every time I see the card somewhere. Flow and Dissipate are both cards I read once in my entire life I think and still know exactly what they do.
 
Zoss

Zoss

Something that also has to be considered is making sure that counterplay is simple. As you said, Brad, newer players aren't going to know what makes the opponent's deck tick, so maybe looking at your interaction to make sure it's obvious what you should be pointing at what would yield dividends.

Ex. Swap out point GY hate for exiling the whole GY, making sure that all interaction happens on the battlefield, making sure that the obvious threats are the important ones, etc. Some of these are clearly superior options to others, but you get the idea.


Edit: left out the important part--the issue with having both simple and complex decks/cards in a format is making sure that the rewards for attempting something complex are not overwhelming. You want to tempt the experienced players to try something a little spicier, but you can't reward it with a 70% win rate. Ideally, win rate would actually negatively correlate with complexity, so that it could serve as a balancing factor.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Jason Waddell said:
I think activity on the boards naturally always ebbs and flows. We're a small enough community that a couple people being busy will dap the momentum a bit, but I don't think it's much to worry about.

I did my first retail draft of who knows how long. Built a 4-color control deck and started 6-1 before getting shut down by two perfect prismari decks. I've been testing Strixhaven in cube a lot and will compile my thoughts into a video in the next couple days.

Also, we have a special guest for tonight's riptide podcast....
Click to expand...
I really enjoyed tonight's podcast, although I didn't have time to watch the whole thing. I will have to watch the rest once it's on Youtube!

ravnic said:
Another topic: if one handsome member of these boards would create a arena peasant cube, would you draft it online on cc/ct to play a few matches afterwards with these decks (on arena, obviously)?
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If it's on when I have time, sure!
 
ravnic

ravnic

I'm using brushwagg reaction as a super like fyi

Three likes are making me happy! I'm on the list now. I just need someone to play cube with when my gf is busy and there is that pandemic going too. I'll make a thread as soon as I'm done (probably tomorrow, I know myself).
 
Brad

Brad

Yeah... It's difficult to know what is or isn't taxing for a beginner because we're so far from that level of understanding. I'll look into some simpler decks as a start. See how that feels. Thanks.
 
japahn

japahn

I've been busy, and haven't played normal cube drafts in a long time, so not much to write about or ask. Since I've already made a lot of changes in the last 12 months that haven't been properly testing, changing stuff again might make me overcorrect or follow too far on flawed theories. That's why I'm not thinking much about my cube lately.

OTOH, I am working (slowly) on a 2-player asymmetrical cube format that resembles Slay the Spire - one player plays the party master, and goes through quests against the dungeon master. Battles are MtG games between the party master controlling one of the party's members and an enemy controlled by the dungeon master.

I've been playing/watching some Strixhaven too, but I'm not very high on it after about 8 drafts. Had more fun with Kaldheim - the drafting and the gameplay were better IMO - but that may change as the format evolves.

Brad said:
I've been fighting an internal battle between me wanting to make the deepest format possible vs my playgroup being half beginners/intermediates that can't handle that much text or super tricky interactions. They aren't going to remember that they have a dozen effects waiting in the graveyard and they aren't likely to re-read their Dread Wanderer that's already dead to find out. My players certainly aren't going to be able to keep track of their opponent's graveyards and point an accurate exiling spell at it.

I don't want to abandon The Black Cube, but it seems inherently complicated by using the graveyard as a second hand in a lot of decks. I have an idea for a fix, but it definitely feels like it's going to neuter things. Designing to the level my group is at rather than plunging a few into the deep end every time is proving problematic.

Even when I look at lower powered cards, a lot of those have a ton of text, too. It's a struggle.
Click to expand...
That resonates a lot with me. One encouraging thing I can say is that if you work on this problem, it will improve. Taking elegance into account does make card selection harder, but it was absolutely something I needed to do. One warning: keep an eye on removing too much agency from your format. As you reduce text and abilities, cards tend to have fewer options and fewer interactions. Value highly high agency, low complexity cards like Lightning Bolt and Counterspell.

ravnic said:
Another topic: if one handsome member of these boards would create a arena peasant cube, would you draft it online on cc/ct to play a few matches afterwards with these decks (on arena, obviously)?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm very interested in that and I'm pretty sure I can carve out time for it. Not a big deal, but I'd suggest drafting on TappedOut or Cube Tutor to get more realistic decklists.

We need to find a handsome guy to create the cube, though.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
japahn said:
OTOH, I am working (slowly) on a 2-player asymmetrical cube format that resembles Slay the Spire - one player plays the party master, and goes through quests against the dungeon master. Battles are MtG games between the party master controlling one of the party's members and an enemy controlled by the dungeon master.
Click to expand...
Ooooooo! That sounds very intriguing :)
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Do you guys still feel like the wedge names are worse than the shard names? I find myself having to put in some effort to remember some wedge names (except Mardu), but the shard names come to mind immediately.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Jason Waddell said:
Do you guys still feel like the wedge names are worse than the shard names? I find myself having to put in some effort to remember some wedge names (except Mardu), but the shard names come to mind immediately.
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For me they are equally memorable. Bant is the one I had to think longest about, but "longest" is very relative in my case. Maybe you were simply more active around the time Alara released than when Khans released?
 
sigh

sigh

Abzan got me for a hot minute, but I eventually remembered it. I think they are worse sounding than the original, but that's just personal taste. They are pretty even on the memory side of things for me.
 
sigh

sigh

I still refer to "Temur" decks as "RUG" decks a good portion of the time, especially if they aren't flavored anything like the Temur clan. Rug, unlike Temur, is an actual (english) word that my brain is used to saying out loud.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Glint-Eye, Witch-Maw, ... no these are too difficult.

I'm pretty good at remembering the monocolor names however.

Black, green, blue, red ... uhm ... ah, white, that's it.
 
inscho

inscho

Velrun said:
Old players who stepped down their Magic commitment: Remembers Alara best
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I was a part of the original Mirrodin fallout. I drafted Kamigawa a couple of times, but didn't sling another spell until Mirrodin Besieged oddly enough. So I completely missed Alara. Even still, Jund and Esper sticks in my mind a lot more easily than Mardu and Sultai
 
Velrun

Velrun

inscho said:
I was a part of the original Mirrodin fallout. I drafted Kamigawa a couple of times, but didn't sling another spell until Mirrodin Besieged oddly enough. So I completely missed Alara. Even still, Jund and Esper sticks in my mind a lot more easily than Mardu and Sultai
Click to expand...
Weird. No logic behind that.
 
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