I like categorization based off the most realistic casting/common mode. Like I have Voracious Hydra in my list and while it can be played for less mana earlier, it's usually being sandbagged as a fight spell where X is 4 or greater so I just call it a 6. Or something like Bonecrusher Giant that is almost always cast for the Stomp half at 1R at instant speed before being played later on. If it's for spreadsheet aesthetics just split the difference and do whatever works to make it look nice.
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For my categorizations, I leave cycling cards within the same category as their Mana Value, but I count the ones with a one or two mana cycle as cantrips. For example, Striped Riverwinder and Curator of Mysteries are in the 7 and 4 MV slots, respectively, but I count them towards the 15-20 card Cantrip density I want in Blue.
I haven't posted the list publicly on my main thread yet because I'm not 100% happy with certain areas yet, but if you want to look at my cantrip density feel free to give it a look here.
Think it'd make sense to leave them in their spot on the curve and then ignore them for curve reasons? Like if I want 0-1 high cost white cards and have
I could just call it "one" and see how it shakes out? Unless something cycles for 3+, then maybe it should count as it's MV first and cycler second? As long as I'm not way off the mark, I think that's what I'm most concerned about. It feels really weird to have FOUR 7+ drops in a single color.
EDIT: If I wanted to, how do I get ci tags to acknowledge I'd be running the ONS version of Dragon and Akroma?
Yeah. Realistically, expensive cycling cards are going to be used as cantrips more often than they are going to be cast, but the cast "mode" is relevant enough to make counting them as just their cycle cost inaccurate. They're almost like kicker cards in the sense that they can cost two mana, but people won't always cast them for two mana, like Kavu Titan. There's just no perfect place to put these cards from a curve standpoint other than the broad category of "cantrip."
I think this is probably wise. Most decks are not going to want to pay 3 mana to simply draw a card if they can avoid it, even if that effect comes attached to a spell. Cycling
is basically a last resort to use an otherwise useless card unless it comes with a spell effect tacked on.Cycling cards just don't interact with the curve the same way most other cards will. The only "real" 7 drop in your selection above is Akroma, Angel of Wrath, the rest are split cards with a 2 mana mode and a 7 mana mode. Even though these cards have cheap mana floors, they usually won't be used on curve, making their placement ultimately pretty meaningless outside of spreadsheet aesthetics. The important thing is that they can be utilized at any stage of the game and provide flexible options to players.
There is a point where you might have too many big cyclers: when player's can't meaningfully draft an intended density dependent archetype due to lack of proper support. For example, if you want a White aggressive deck to be a thing, if players have can't get more than three or four 1-drops (or more likely 2-drops in this case) on average, that deck isn't going to function. If this is because you're running to many random cycling cards, you're going to want to cut some of those and add back support for the intended other deck. I know that's not rocket science, but it is honestly the best barometer for "what is too much of thing X."
One thing I would worry about in your shoes is Morph Curve. I'm bringing this up because I looked at your Cube list and saw that Blue had a whopping 20 three drops when counting Morphs. Blue creatures make up roughly 25% of the Blue section at this point in the Cube's development, not counting other spells. Green, by contrast, only has 9. Having such a glut of 3 MV cards in Blue might make the color less viable than it's counterparts, simply because roughly 1/3rd of it's options are cards that want to be played for exactly 3 mana. It looks like a lot of your blue 3MV cards are fairly flexible due to cycling or morph, but it would still likely make the color smoother if hard 3-drops such as vexing gull were removed from the Cube.
Yeah. I just started cutting and ran into the Cycling problem. I'm going to make the 3 drop section a little smaller on the curve than it usually would be.
I looked at KTK and ONS blocks for total set vs 3 MV creatures and it was a similar percentage of the total sets compared to RAV or whatever the other couple I looked at were. I was a bit surprised by this, as I thought it could maybe be considerably smaller. They went with the same ratio as usual, but I'll cut 3s by a little bit more than usual.
I also recently reworked blue. I'm trying to figure out what RW, GW, and GU should be doing. Maybe BG because it feels very close to UB, too.
WU Skies / Birds
UB Yard / Zombies
BR Sac Aggro / Goblins
RG Ramp / Beasts
GW Tokens??? / N/A
WB Life / Clerics
UR Spells / Wizards
BG Yard? / Elves
RW Heroic? / Soldiers
GU Draw-Go / Morph?
Specifically, RW vs GW both make a good case for a tokens deck. W has quite a few tokens in general and it can easily spread into a Battalion kind of deck or a GW tokens shell.
RW has an option to go for Heroic and still play many soldiers, but that feels so modern to me and requires excess deviation from Onslaught's style.
I'm considering GW Legends Toolbox with Call and Sisay, but that's a lot of searching and kind of loose as a theme.
UB Zombies feels like it has to play out of the yard, but that leaves BG seeking an identity. Unforunately, the ONS block only had 4 multicolor cards, so WotC offered no help.
GU is always tricky. +1/+1 counters running rampant is also a very modern development and felt out of place. This also ruled out counters for GW. I was hoping to make GU some sort of draw-go ramp deck that could utilize both spells in hand and morphs face down to have access to a lot of options, but it's a bit of a stretch.
I could put Slivers into RW but damn.
I looked at KTK and ONS blocks for total set vs 3 MV creatures and it was a similar percentage of the total sets compared to RAV or whatever the other couple I looked at were. I was a bit surprised by this, as I thought it could maybe be considerably smaller. They went with the same ratio as usual, but I'll cut 3s by a little bit more than usual.
I also recently reworked blue. I'm trying to figure out what RW, GW, and GU should be doing. Maybe BG because it feels very close to UB, too.
WU Skies / Birds
UB Yard / Zombies
BR Sac Aggro / Goblins
RG Ramp / Beasts
GW Tokens??? / N/A
WB Life / Clerics
UR Spells / Wizards
BG Yard? / Elves
RW Heroic? / Soldiers
GU Draw-Go / Morph?
Specifically, RW vs GW both make a good case for a tokens deck. W has quite a few tokens in general and it can easily spread into a Battalion kind of deck or a GW tokens shell.
RW has an option to go for Heroic and still play many soldiers, but that feels so modern to me and requires excess deviation from Onslaught's style.
I'm considering GW Legends Toolbox with Call and Sisay, but that's a lot of searching and kind of loose as a theme.
UB Zombies feels like it has to play out of the yard, but that leaves BG seeking an identity. Unforunately, the ONS block only had 4 multicolor cards, so WotC offered no help.
GU is always tricky. +1/+1 counters running rampant is also a very modern development and felt out of place. This also ruled out counters for GW. I was hoping to make GU some sort of draw-go ramp deck that could utilize both spells in hand and morphs face down to have access to a lot of options, but it's a bit of a stretch.
I could put Slivers into RW but damn.
GW and WR can be the different faces of the same Naya 'going tall&wide' deck :
Hero of the Nyxborn
Anax and Cymede
Might of the Masses
Sigil of the Nayan Gods
Scion of the Wild
Appeal
Ledev Champion
Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafte
etc..
Last 3 might feel to modern-y for the case in study
Hero of the Nyxborn
Anax and Cymede
Might of the Masses
Sigil of the Nayan Gods
Scion of the Wild
Appeal
Ledev Champion
Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafte
etc..
Last 3 might feel to modern-y for the case in study
I wouldn't focus too heavily on the pair archetypes of your format. These older sets often had mono/pivot archetypes, which can be executed in such a way, that it can lead to a more interesting draft format. A mono theme and a mono theme can also sometimes be combined for a cool and good deck.
theme and a mono theme can also sometimes be combined for a cool and good deck.I'm worried the only viable decks might be XY Tribe, so I wanted to push primary themes to make tribal secondary, but maybe you're right. It's not the worst thing to leave it a little open ended. I'll look into that a bit more. It's a little harder within the confines of the tribes.I wouldn't focus too heavily on the pair archetypes of your format. These older sets often had mono/pivot archetypes, which can be executed in such a way, that it can lead to a more interesting draft format. A mono
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Man Galaxy brain take on Fateful Hour by Maro:
"Players tend to evaluate cards based on the best case scenario. Fateful hour wasn't very popular because the best case scenario for those cards is being at 20, so they don't work"
Source: Drive to Work #235 - Lessons Learned: Dark Ascension (From 2015)
Edit: Okay I think the disconnect here comes from the difference between "Players evaluate card from the game level best case" and "Players evaluate cards based on the best case for that card"
The best case (game wide) for fateful hour is no benefit.
The best case for Gather the Townsfolk specifically is 2 mana for 5 power
"Players tend to evaluate cards based on the best case scenario. Fateful hour wasn't very popular because the best case scenario for those cards is being at 20, so they don't work"
Source: Drive to Work #235 - Lessons Learned: Dark Ascension (From 2015)
Edit: Okay I think the disconnect here comes from the difference between "Players evaluate card from the game level best case" and "Players evaluate cards based on the best case for that card"
The best case (game wide) for fateful hour is no benefit.
The best case for Gather the Townsfolk specifically is 2 mana for 5 power
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Anyone want to comment on their experience running "bad" Planeswalkers?
My experience with walkers has been ruined retail drafts, difficult cube drafts against mid-high tier walkers I used to use, and watching Standard formats warp themselves around $50 walkers.
I've resultantly shied away from them, but I can imagine them being fine if they're nerfed. Anyone tried it?
My experience with walkers has been ruined retail drafts, difficult cube drafts against mid-high tier walkers I used to use, and watching Standard formats warp themselves around $50 walkers.
I've resultantly shied away from them, but I can imagine them being fine if they're nerfed. Anyone tried it?
It’s a fine line. A planeswalker can often warp the game or end up being a life gain spell.
In my cube there are no planeswalkers in the starter set we draft from. There is also no walkers in the level 1 stage or the level 2 stage. The worst planeswalkers in the cube is introduced at level 3 and the best planeswalkers are at level 4 (the final level.) This works really cool because most games are without walkers until the later stages of the tournament. To translate this into other cubes you could run walkers in ‘Occationals’ in only include them 25 % of the cube sessions maybe?
In my cube there are no planeswalkers in the starter set we draft from. There is also no walkers in the level 1 stage or the level 2 stage. The worst planeswalkers in the cube is introduced at level 3 and the best planeswalkers are at level 4 (the final level.) This works really cool because most games are without walkers until the later stages of the tournament. To translate this into other cubes you could run walkers in ‘Occationals’ in only include them 25 % of the cube sessions maybe?
i run Narset, Davriel, and Tibalt (the ones with just a static and minus) in my Arena Artisan cube and they fit into that environment really well. the static abilities are relevant if they’re left alone, and they can create up to a 3-for-1 depending on how well you time and protect them, but… since they have no plus their ceiling isn’t nearly as oppressive. would definitely recommend for mid power. another one i’ve liked from seeing in constructed is the 3 mana Domri that has a static but no “ult.” nice solid abilities but highly interactive.
As a rule, I don't include planeswalkers that have removal strapped to them. Stuff like Jace, Mirror Mage and Chandra, Acolyte of Flame are pretty safe because you actually have to invest resources to protect them. Even when you do, they're basically enchantments that are a lot more vulnerable against decks that aren't White or Green, which is again a big plus for me. Even something like Teferi, Who Slows the Sun is pretty okay because again he's much better at parity or when you're ahead.
Where this gets dicey is with planeswalkers who create tokens. I *think* I'm okay with having some amount of token spam at MV 5+ because that's a top end and it's just that much worse than Bitterblossom. I'm currently testing Wrenn and Seven because making the token is so resource-intensive and because it's an easy way of adding defense against fliers, but I'm wary that even a big token every 4 turns might be too much for my environment despite it being weak to so much. My other token-spam planeswalker is Liliana, Death's Majesty, and if your game plan is to spam a Zombie every turn you're going to deck yourself really quickly, so it self-limits a bit. Not as much as I'd like, but it's an interesting card and the reanimation potential is cool.
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer are really nice as well. I can think of no White planeswalkers that I actively like, but that's probably not a problem for you. Iirc I run the BW Sorin from Khans block as well, who has the tokens on a minus ability and a non-board-affecting uptick.
Edit: Okay, I'm not quite as consistent with my rules as I've advertised myself to be. Vraska, Golgari Queen destroys things and Nissa, Steward of Elements can definitely "create tokens", although it's a little more finicky than most similar things. One planeswalker that you in particular might like is Lord Windgrace! I run him as a turboramp lands lord and he does great work there while also supporting Madness and graveyard-filling.
Where this gets dicey is with planeswalkers who create tokens. I *think* I'm okay with having some amount of token spam at MV 5+ because that's a top end and it's just that much worse than Bitterblossom. I'm currently testing Wrenn and Seven because making the token is so resource-intensive and because it's an easy way of adding defense against fliers, but I'm wary that even a big token every 4 turns might be too much for my environment despite it being weak to so much. My other token-spam planeswalker is Liliana, Death's Majesty, and if your game plan is to spam a Zombie every turn you're going to deck yourself really quickly, so it self-limits a bit. Not as much as I'd like, but it's an interesting card and the reanimation potential is cool.
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer are really nice as well. I can think of no White planeswalkers that I actively like, but that's probably not a problem for you. Iirc I run the BW Sorin from Khans block as well, who has the tokens on a minus ability and a non-board-affecting uptick.
Edit: Okay, I'm not quite as consistent with my rules as I've advertised myself to be. Vraska, Golgari Queen destroys things and Nissa, Steward of Elements can definitely "create tokens", although it's a little more finicky than most similar things. One planeswalker that you in particular might like is Lord Windgrace! I run him as a turboramp lands lord and he does great work there while also supporting Madness and graveyard-filling.
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wrenn and seven is frickin crazy in standard, the token wins so many games just by being a 5/5 reach and if you copy it with Chariot?!? ooooof
Chariot is indeed a lovely busted card. finally they got Populate right
I want to add the following because I don't think I stressed it enough in my last post: Planeswalkers are actually a really great thing for your environment because you get a lot of the benefits of enchantments without the baggage of them being super hard to deal with. I'd recommend starting small and seeing how you like it, though, as they've definitely grown beyond that role quickly*. I'd found them to be a really healthy thing, weirdly enough, as they give slower decks a way to capitalize on their dominant positions that can be directly attacked without a specific removal spell, so more-proactive decks are already better equipped to handle them while not taxing their removal suite too much.
*oh god planeswalkers came out in 2007 and are officially teenagers how the heck did this happen.
*oh god planeswalkers came out in 2007 and are officially teenagers how the heck did this happen.
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
We old
I've been playing since Odyssey
For a specifically mild suggustion, I love Chandra, Acolyte of Flame, Domri, Anarch of Bolas, and Karn, Scion of Urza, karn especially if you don't run an artifact theme as basically more interesting bottled cloister
Wow twinsies
Daretti, Scrap Savant is my platonic ideal for planeswalkers. No intrinsic self-preservation, and a self-contained engine that requires you to think about what's in your deck.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Some time next year the game will have had planeswalkers for longer than it lacked them
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Nice. Invasion was my first set, that's only a year earlier!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Hey, I got an update in the mail for an old CubeCobra-upgrade I added a vote to: "This PR adds the option of specifying the default number of seats for custom draft formats." For those who don't code, PR = pull request, which means someone wrote new code that needs to be reviewed before it can be adopted. CubeCobra is currently down for maintenance, and the PR got merged 6 hours ago, so with a bit of luck you can configure custom draft formats for other numbers of players than 8 before the day ends!
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