General CBS

[spicewitch]

I love goblin bombardment.

Sure I'm all for less Mudholes and One with Nothings, but WotC hasn't done that in a while. Take a look at some of the worst cards from fate reforged:

Those are mostly nice/interesting/can combo with something in an occasionally worthwhile way. Fruit of the First Tree, like most big "when X dies" effects, is great in cubes that don't load up on exile effects unnecessarily.

Great-Horn Krushok is not meant to be played. (probably Fierce Invocation too) In Constructed, people will take better 5 drops. In cube, people will include more interesting cards that go in interesting archetypes. It does not have a home in a sideboard, it does not have interesting interactions with a niche archetype. It only exists for those pick # 12-15 moments in booster draft where you have to evaluate which shitty card is less shitty for your deck.

Look at the the "thesaurus" here: http://www.mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/greathornkrushok.html
They keep printing these damn things set after set, it's not like they're filling a P/T/cmc hole that is underserved.

What a lame attitude! The game is all about discovery? Discovering your deck is terrible after drafting cards wizards put there for you to discover are terrible? Fun!

But seriously, can anybody defend having bad cards in draft formats?

Incidentally, that article makes that set sound like a lot more fun than the average set to draft, because they were forced to go "We only have one set, there's going to be 3 packs of it, we can't afford to shit on our players like we do in a normal block."

 

[Eric Chan]

those 3/5's for five do get played in most limited sets though. usually it's when something has gone wrong in your draft, but they're a pretty far cry from, say, Primal Visitation. like, that's a 0 out of 10 on power, whereas Siege Mastodon and friends are maybe a 3

i'm not sure if this is true, but outside of core sets, it feels like there are fewer and fewer strictly unplayable cards with each recent expansion

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I think you guys are being a bit to reductive about this. Maro is making a good argument for magic not to become chess.
Magic shouldn't become chess, there's a lot of appeal that comes from games being different. Here's a lovely video explaining why that is a good thing:

That video isn't even kind of relevant to this discussion. Quasi-unplayable draft filler isn't what keeps Magic form turning chess.

 

[Chris Taylor]

That video isn't even kind of relevant to this discussion. Quasi-unplayable draft filler isn't what keeps Magic form turning chess.

The idea behind the video being that if everything was perfectly balanced, your options are reduced, not expanded.

I wanted to illustrate that maro is speaking out against everything being perfectly balanced: every card being of the exact same power level.

those 3/5's for five do get played in most limited sets though. usually it's when something has gone wrong in your draft, but they're a pretty far cry from, say, Primal Visitation. like, that's a 0 out of 10 on power, whereas Siege Mastodon and friends are maybe a 3

i'm not sure if this is true, but outside of core sets, it feels like there are fewer and fewer strictly unplayable cards with each recent expansion

And even then, Primal Visitation is a far cry from mudhole bad. Auras are typically bad in limited, and this is a below average aura, but it does do something. It does affect the board.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I agree with FSR, the simple concept of engineering deliberate inbalance to encourage meta evolution is pretty far removed from justifying unplayable draft filler.

Especially when some of WOTZ's best draft sets are the ones where you don't have a shortage of playables.

Edit: I think this article by Sam Black helps puts things in perspective:

I've tried writing an Innistrad Limited article before, and failed. The problem is that I can't figure out how to structure my thoughts. There's too much to say. Writing about a single archetype seems pointless; there are too many. Ranking cards is beyond pointless, since values change too much depending on context. This is the deepest Limited format I've played by a lot, so it should be the one with the most to write about, but I just can't figure out where to start....

....This format has fewer completely unplayable cards than any other because there are so many different ways to use cards. The following is a comprehensive list of Innistrad cards I haven't played in Limited yet...[list of cards]

That's it. There are some really bad cards that I've played with, like Curse of Oblivion. Seriously, you never know.

The fact that there are so many different ways to approach this format means that it can be really hard to have an answer to everything. Also, decks can do very powerful things in directions you might not expect. Because of this, the tried and true approach of “be extremely aggressive” tends to be particularly successful in this format.

Their is a very small list of cards that are unplayable draft filler, most of the cards are playable in some context, even if somewhat narrow.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

The idea behind the video being that if everything was perfectly balanced, your options are reduced, not expanded.

I wanted to illustrate that maro is speaking out against everything being perfectly balanced: every card being of the exact same power level.

That's a non sequitur. The value of cards are contextual and involve blind pregame combinations, so unless you don't plan to have any variation in their effects they CAN'T be perfectly balanced. That (should) go without saying. The question is there is a need to include cards that are blatantly obsolete or otherwise clearly nonfactors in any format.

 

[Chris Taylor]

That's a non sequitur. The value of cards are contextual and involve blind pregame combinations, so unless you don't plan to have any variation in their effects they CAN'T be perfectly balanced. That (should) go without saying. The question is there is a need to include cards that are blatantly obsolete or otherwise clearly nonfactors in any format.

Sure, I like all my cards to be playable too, but that's a deffinition we need to be careful with. I wouldn't call Elite Vanguard unplayable if Mardu Woe-Reaper is available in the same format, for example.

I think my problem here was that maro seems to be responding to something different:
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr236 said:

Imagine a draft environment where every card had the same power level. What would separate the good drafters from the bad ones? Every player would get enough playable cards. They're all playable! Making the crucial twenty-third pick wouldn't be all that tough. You can't go too wrong. In addition, there is a lot of fun in figuring what cards other people are undervaluing. Players love finding the hidden gems. If there's no variance, there is a distinctive lessening of discovery. And as I've explained in “Making Magic” numerous times, the game is all about discovery.​

the impossible draft format where everything is the same.

Is there a corporate reason they want draft variance? Like maybe player psychology somehow causes people who open the mono-curse of oblivion sealed pool tend to sealed more often then the similar mono siege mastodon pool?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Like maybe player psychology somehow causes people who open the mono-curse of oblivion sealed pool tend to sealed more often then the similar mono siege mastodon pool?

Siege Mastodon crushes Curse of Oblivion every time!

 

[Eric Chan]

And even then, Primal Visitation is a far cry from mudhole bad. Auras are typically bad in limited, and this is a below average aura, but it does do something. It does affect the board.

well, to compare apples to apples, the quirky offbeat rares they continue to print today still do stone nothing in limited. good luck with that Battle of Wits you opened in your M13 sealed pool!

i was more talking about cards that are designed for limited play - the commons and uncommons. on which point i think i agree with you completely, in that there are fewer completely unplayable cards nowadays

 

[CML]

Sure, I like all my cards to be playable too, but that's a deffinition we need to be careful with. I wouldn't call Elite Vanguard unplayable if Mardu Woe-Reaper is available in the same format, for example.

I think my problem here was that maro seems to be responding to something different:
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr236 said:

Imagine a draft environment where every card had the same power level. What would separate the good drafters from the bad ones? Every player would get enough playable cards. They're all playable! Making the crucial twenty-third pick wouldn't be all that tough. You can't go too wrong. In addition, there is a lot of fun in figuring what cards other people are undervaluing. Players love finding the hidden gems. If there's no variance, there is a distinctive lessening of discovery. And as I've explained in “Making Magic” numerous times, the game is all about discovery.​

the impossible draft format where everything is the same.

Is there a corporate reason they want draft variance? Like maybe player psychology somehow causes people who open the mono-curse of oblivion sealed pool tend to sealed more often then the similar mono siege mastodon pool?

the question is not "is maro wrong?" because of course he is, it is, "is maro dumb enough to actually believe this or is he just being disingenuous"? the jury is still out on that one, but i'd lean towards the former, working at wizards has a way of making people love the scent of their own farts in the presence of power and the absence of opposition from equals, which, you know, is kind of contrary to the spirit of a card game. having seen similar idiocies perpetuated by our beloved LSV in defense of the dresden-level bomb density of SOM i think people actually think like this because they get entrenched defending their own awful design choices and of course this is why we're here. who discovers anything when they lose to Carnifex Demon or Mob Rule for the 15th time after thinking their previous decisions intended to accrue an incremental advantage were meaningful, except "i should stop reading the mothership and come to riplab instead"?

 

[Chris Taylor]

well, to compare apples to apples, the quirky offbeat rares they continue to print today still do stone nothing in limited. good luck with that Battle of Wits you opened in your M13 sealed pool!

i was more talking about cards that are designed for limited play - the commons and uncommons. on which point i think i agree with you completely, in that there are fewer completely unplayable cards nowadays

Perhaps a better comparison is chimney imp instead, though he's hella old at this point
And to it's credit, Battle of Wits is still hugely popular...in other formats. Mudhole and One with Nothing have no such luxury

What I'm trying to say here is I think things are on the up and up, Maro's strange ramblings aside. He does have to answer a lot of the questions he gets through the lens of a profit driven company, but without explicitly saying so since people get nervous and/or angry when it's revealed a corporation is making decisions with their bottom on their mind (Gasp! Whoever would do that?)

So CML, I suppose I subscribe to the idea Maro is being disingenious? Your posts are hard to parse sometimes, and the coffee hasn't kicked in yet

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Meh, I feel people are fooling themselves if they think MaRo isn't aware of these things. He seems like a really smart guy with a very good grip on what makes Magic tick. One of those things is expensive rares and mythics, as those will drive up sales, which, eventually, leads to enough profit to continue making Magic. Keeping Hasbro happy is almost the same as keeping us happy. If Magic died overnight, I think most of us would give up on cubing within a year or two, as its'so simply less satisfying when there aren't exciting new cards to discuss/add/shoot down!

By the way, I also think people are fooling themselves if they think MaRo doesn't care a great, great deal about making Magic the best it can be. It's just my opinion, but I think a lot of companies would benefit greatly from someone as passionate, driven and community-minded as him. I wonder how he combines work and family, because honestly, just answering all those questions on blogatog would be a proper workweek for me, and that's just something he does on the side.

Also, don't hate One With Nothing. It saw standard play!

 

[Chris Taylor]

Standard sideboard play, and is was pretty aweful sideboard play.

For those youngins who don't remember kamigawa standard, this was the combo one with nothing was brought in to counter:



Dat Tech

 

[Lucre]

Do I have to read another whole thread about how I'm all wrong about maro lol?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Do I have to read another whole thread about how I'm all wrong about maro lol?

Eh, probably. CML's here after all

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

While I don't agree with everything Maro says, I think he is more right than wrong. The drive towards interactivity, at the expense of pruning certain archetypes, was something that needed to happen. He also seems to learn from his mistakes, and try to improve on his product.

 

[CML]

i think all of you overestimate how much R&D understands the dynamics of competitive mtg, and hugely underestimate how stupid having a job at a corporation makes most people, especially one based on entertainment with a very gullible audience

 

[Lucre]

Also, don't hate One With Nothing. It saw standard play!

can you remind me which deck played one with nothing, because I played a tonne in that era.

 

[VibeBox]

i think all of you overestimate how much R&D understands the dynamics of competitive mtg

also, yeah no one actually played one with nothing even when howling owl was at its brief and hilarious peak

 

[Onderzeeboot]

also, yeah no one actually played one with nothing even when howling owl was at its brief and hilarious peak

People did. I never said it was good though, but people did. Basically what Chris said. Terrible sideboard tech. Then again, discarding your hand is better than dying, so there's that...

Edit: oh lookie! Proof! http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/arti...ve-most-ridiculous-things-seen-at-a-pro-tour/

 

[Lucre]

I played seal of doom to kill their magnivore after having their lands removed.

 

[VibeBox]

Edit: oh lookie! Proof! http://www.magicmadhouse.co.uk/arti...ve-most-ridiculous-things-seen-at-a-pro-tour/

3 people in a big tournament put in thier sb and didnt do well
yeah....no one played this bad card and wotc aren't half as clever as people give them credit for

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I played seal of doom to kill their magnivore after having their lands removed.

That was Vore. Owling Mine didn't play Magnivores (unless they played the hybrid version... Which I actually did one tournament, come to think of it, but the Magnivores were in the transformational sideboard).

 

[CML]

the low pay severely limits the quality of the hires they get. basically the entire "economics" of magic, insofar as it exists, is run by libertaryans and is therefore little more than a joke about libertaryans

 

[anotak]

i used to hate on one with nothing.

one with nothing isn't a good example of a card they shouldn't print. just because it is bad in practice doesn't mean they shouldn't try to print cards that push the boundaries like that.

it is a "powerful effect" that doesn't have any obvious uses. there are plenty of other sweet cards in magic that are like that. while yes, it is bad, it is the cheapest way to discard your hand in all of magic at instant speed. you are moving the entire contents of one zone to another zone, which is something rare. it is relatively unique too.
the only other card that lets you discard your hand for is contract from below, lol.
i actually ran One with Nothing in a damia, sage of stone edh deck. You can respond to damia's trigger with One With Nothing to turn it into a Contract from Below. And sure, that's not the optimal card choice for such a deck (I mainly ran it for the laughs of people's reaction when I said out loud "I cast One With Nothing"), but it was playable enough.

mudhole is a much better example of a card that shouldn't be printed considering cards like tormod's crypt predated it by many many years.

that said, there are plenty of cards that are awful lazy bad-for-no-reason dumb designs and shouldn't be in the game. one with nothing is not one of those cards!