General Color matters / devotion
- Thread starter CML
- Start date
Oh man, there's like, infinite skill involved in Poker. Even a subset of the game like bet sizing has a ton of skill to it. then there's long term strategic things like table position, how to play with aggressive players to your left or right, human interactions. I think any effort to simplify the skill involved in poker is a losing battle.
I mean, again, if all you're looking at is a single hand of poker, you're totally at the whims of random chance, especially of hold 'em or stud, where you have no control over the cards you have. That's sort of the point; it's a betting game, not a card game per se.
Everything else is basic math. What hands are best, what your odds are based on what you have (and what other people have if playing some variation where cards are face up - Texas holdem, etc). Anybody can learn the numbers. That does not require skill. There's nothing else to the game mechanically. It's all about playing your opponents. That's where all the skill is. .
I'm gonna pretend this thread is titled "Best Designed Games" and shout
Agricola gets second place in the 'too many pieces to rightfully claim its title as Actual Best Game' prize stakes, because Caverna is somehow worse.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The statement that "Anybody can learn the numbers. That does not require skill." is patently absurd. Skills are learned abilities. If you know them better than your opponent or are better at applying them than your opponent, you will win more games then them. That means you have greater skill at the game then your opponent. Any no-variance aspect of a game that does not involve reaction time/dexterity is "rote memorization" when distilled to its essence. Attempting to reduce that to irrelevance is demeaning to the efforts of the player who develop that skill.
You're missing my point. How hard is it to learn which hands in poker are best? A child can do that. Learning basic odds in poker is no different than memorizing basic strategy in blackjack. Does it require skill to memorize facts for a test or memorize a poem? This is human being 101 stuff. Anybody with a brain can do it.
Poker is very skill intensive, but it's not the mechanics of the actual game that make it so. It's all about the betting component. Reading your opponent, knowing what reaction you will get based on bets you make, etc. There is a massive amount of skill in that. I'm not downplaying that at all. But you don't win at poker by always having the best hand.
There are a shitload of pieces. It takes courage to be a new player as you watch the setup process.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Betting is a mechanic of the game. The game is configured to have hidden information in a way that injects an element of skill. That's a feature of the game, not a byproduct. A form of poker in which you always won by having the best hand would be dull (and 'having the best hand' is entirely a matter of luck to begin with, at least before the action opens)
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The math of poker doesn't stop at "knowing what the best hands are". You need to know the odds of getting that hand and the odds that someone else has a better hand. You need to know which hands are the best against your hand and which are the worst. You need to know, how those odds change as information is added to the game.
Then, you need to know how these odds translate into betting. You need to know what hands in what position are worth betting on. You need to know how much to bet to maximize your risk/reward ratio given your chance of winning the hand.
You probably need to know a lot more that I don't know about as I've only played poker casually.
I'll agree with you that mechanical depth of poker is relatively shallow (you don't have many choices and the breadth of those choices is rather narrow), but even if "everyone can do it" it still takes an effort (and I think much more of an effort then you are giving it credit for), most people don't make that effort and as such those that do are able to use there skill to gain an advantage on their opponents. Also, just knowing the math, as opposed then actually executing it correctly is a whole different manner and really not as simple as you make it out to be.
Comparing poker to blackjack where the entire decision tree can readily be printed on an index card is really an unfair comparison.
CML
Contributor
i would like to invite you and your bank account to my home game
i remember simmons made an assertion like this on grantland (obviously it stuck out on that otherwise in-depth and well-considered site) and i was torn between wanting to disabuse him of that misconception and, at the time, having my living depend on that same misconception. anyway ffs admitting you're wrong feels good sometimes. the worst trolls are the ones that think they're being serious
poker is an extraordinarily beautiful game full of metaphorical significance in every aspect of life and i would be a much, much worse reader and person without having played it intensively and competitively. it is one of the only games that lets you comprehend and deal with life. the sad truth is there's no way to learn it in america now, though. the magic guys who have learned live do not appreciate it in the same way and it is sad
Wow this thread got out of hand since yesterday. I just wanted to pitch in and say that I detest scrabble. It's awful. My entire experience is like *think think think think* oh wow I can spell -- oh no. nope. hmm. *think think* "Ok fine I guess I'll just put this 3-letter word down."
I probably suck at it and that doesn't help.
I probably suck at it and that doesn't help.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I've said it before, a tile placement game where the rules for placing tiles is, literally, the size of a dictionary is severely offputting.
I get bit fit.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That's some mad profits you made in 2010.
CML
Contributor
listen i am washed up as all hell but i have a good excuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(2011)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(2011)
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, that really sucked. Dutch government went through an anti-online-poker phase as well :-/ Recently a judge ruled that poker is not a gambling game though, because while it is a game with odds, you can't turn a profit by blindly playing the odds. In other words, it is not a random, and thus a pure gambling game and you can get better at the game. This might have pretty interesting consequences.
Online poker is super unprofitable once you take all the fish away. It's lost all its momentum, I doubt we'll see anything like the easy winnings of 2004-2010 again.
I don't trust online gambling in any form. How do you know you are playing individuals and not think tanks running sophisticated odds calculations, analyzing betting patterns and other things I can't even imagine?
I'll only bet real money if I can see the person in the flesh. Too much of poker in particular is reading people which is virtually impossible online.
I'll only bet real money if I can see the person in the flesh. Too much of poker in particular is reading people which is virtually impossible online.
That's funny I almost never play magic online unless I'm contributing to a sophisticated think tank doowhacky.
Re heavy colour matters themes:
Is it possible to make games like diverse and full of multiple lines of play with the cards the currently give us while trying to dump your hand for devotion purposes. Like I assume you always want Llanowar Elves over Sakura-tribe Elders or Diligent Farmhands but what about cards like seal of fire or removal? Grave Digger also becomes a handy source of not only card refreshment, but devotion refreshment while not really contributing to games that only keep building up.
CML
Contributor
a lack of level 0 considerations is one of poker's finest attributes and a glut of them is a serious design flaw in magic. it's what keeps the game too often superficial and uninteresting and obsesses the culture with dull memorization and acquisition. of course it's also what makes wizards money.
please stop being stupid on purpose