Community Project: 4-at-a-time Battlecruiser Cube
- Thread starter Kirblinx
- Start date
Muzzio might be asking too much in the artifact department if artifact mana is off limits.
Yay! Things are moving again. Maybe it is just me that needs motivation. But we passes the mythical 242 card mark so that means I can add more temples!
Does anyone else think we need another set of fixing? I run 5 cycles of lands in my cube which suits me well. Would four cycles be enough? (Double bounce, double temple).
I may as well add some meaty cards as well (because adding 10 already wasn't unfair enough).
We have now hit 260. Only 100 more cards to go!
Does anyone else think we need another set of fixing? I run 5 cycles of lands in my cube which suits me well. Would four cycles be enough? (Double bounce, double temple).
I may as well add some meaty cards as well (because adding 10 already wasn't unfair enough).
We have now hit 260. Only 100 more cards to go!
This cube needs a lot more removal.
This cube needs a lot more removal.
I can't allow declaration in stone. I don't want any removal that costs less than three without a significant drawback. Would you mind shifting it to something else please
Declaration in Stone does give them the card back, though, and in a cube like this they're definitely going to have time to sac the clue. By the time people are playing 8 mana creatures, the difference between a 2 mana spell and a 4 mana spell is negligible. But if it's really a problem, I can switch it to
More removal
Afterlife and Quarantine Field are both rather strong (the former violating the whole no-instant-speed removal under 3cmc without signifcant drawbacks, listed on the first post as the first point, and the latter being pretty bonkers but tolerable as a one-off stronk card), while Descend Upon the Sinful is a pretty brutal piece that seems like an overpowered, unneeded piece here. I think removal is being pushed too hard for the power level, which needs some consideration, as we're rapidly seeing Mageta the Lion, Triskelion, and Twisted Abomination (among others) go from viable to chaff, and this is a result hinging almost entirely on these strong removal adds.
Well, to be fair, he said he didn't want instant speed removal UNDER 3 CMC. I thought 3 CMC or higher would be acceptable. I could have been mistaken.
But, I mean, okay. You can't have an environment with no removal at all. It's just not healthy for the game. There needs to be some sort of catch up mechanic or interaction, otherwise gameplay just comes down to whoever plays the biggest guy first wins. Quarantine Field wasn't particularly well thought-out, but my original choice was Declaration in Stone, which is strict card disadvantage, and when asked to change it, I replaced it with the first 4+ CMC white removal spell I could think of.
Also I wanted at least one sweeper because for some reason I got it into my head that Progenitus was in this cube, and quite frankly I forgot what Mageta the Lion did.
I like Descend upon the Sinful. I think it has nice symmetry with Extinguish All Hope, and it was weird that black had 3ish sweepers and white had just Mageta.
But if I may make a suggestion, I think these are fun, if a lower-power card is desired:
Afterlife seems right in line with the power level here as far as I can tell. As far as something that costs 4,
could be okay?
Or maybe a cheap removal spell that is really narrow:
But if I may make a suggestion, I think these are fun, if a lower-power card is desired:
Afterlife seems right in line with the power level here as far as I can tell. As far as something that costs 4,
could be okay?
Or maybe a cheap removal spell that is really narrow:
After commenting about Declaration in Stone I didn't want to seem like a 'Negative Nancy' and keep throwing down your ideas (Peter LeCara). Personally I think Afterlife is way too good here. I claimed that Crib Swap was the best card in my deck whenever I drafted it in the old MTGO Legendary Cube and this seems pretty close to it that I don't particularly want it in the cube. I just thought I would let it slide. RBM is probably right though, and we should look to change it. I didn't get the same feeling when I saw Quarantine Field or Descend Upon the Sinful as they seem heavily costed enough to be fine. We do need some mass removal I feel and it being 6+ should be fine. Quarantine Field just made me think we should be finding a way to get more enchantment removal in the cube since there are so many floating around.
The reason why I don't like having such cheap removal is because when most of the threats are 4+ mana there is such a HUGE tempo swing when you can remove their 6 drop, beat in and drop a 4 drop next turn. All they can do is drop another large drop and hope that it is better than your 4-drop to keep it at bay, while you can start dropping your own 6 drops.
It also makes ramp strategies worse getting out your CMC 4+ threats quicker means you can get some swings in before they get to remove them. Then they have to start hoping for good topdecks since they have used most of their cards to get to that ramp point.
I hope this gives a better indication of what I feel the cube needs in terms of removal. I think Miasmir has the right idea above. I can't see anything in that list that goes against this fallacy.
I would like if you could change Afterlife. I'll let Raveborn Muse decide if Descend upon the Sinful is too much.
I dunno. Angelic Edict?
EDIT -
Or maybe Trostani's Judgment to go with the populate theme. I'll leave that up to you guys.
EDIT -
Or maybe Trostani's Judgment to go with the populate theme. I'll leave that up to you guys.
I'll leave it in. Have to have some removal that is better than others. I wanted to put in Utopia Vow, but that would be violating my own rule, and feels fairly similar to Declaration in Stone. I guess we can squeeze some in there and call it premium. I just don't want peoples big threats to disappear so quickly is all.
I guess it is about time I threw some cards in:
The boss of spirits, Green removal, Enchantment removal for red/black, ramp for everyone.
I guess it is about time I threw some cards in:
The boss of spirits, Green removal, Enchantment removal for red/black, ramp for everyone.
If Arcane Denial is too good, then maybe:
Blue needs more spells if there's to be a 'spells matter' theme.
Black lacks instant speed removal.
Humble Defector is sweet and has occasional thematic intersections.
Playable one-mana fixing that doesn't ramp improves the draftability of five-color nonsense without making it faster.
- Removal and enchantment matters tools
- More good spirits
- Solid artifact with cool new art
I'd love to see this finished at some point! I think the holdup at this point is finalizing any sort of themes/archetypes and filling in gaps, which most of us have probably forgotten about at this point. If someone (ideally Kirblinx, unless he wants to pass the duty along?) would like to tally up removal counts and determine what themes are present and what themes need the most help, I'm sure we could make the home stretch.
Sorry, have been rather busy with holidays and other projects, but I had a day free at the end of my holidays and decided to throw all the data in a spreadsheet so it is easily sortable. I put in all the themes that were solid to see and did a count up. You can check it out (and even edit it if you want) here.
Also, with RBM's previous post we made it to 300 cards. That means only 60 more to go until the preliminary project is done. So that means only 15 more submissions. So this shouldn't be too hard to complete. So here is a recap of the themes if you don't want to check out the spreadsheet.
Major Themes
Muzzio, Visionary Architect
Treasure Mage
Wizard Replica
Master Transmuter
Sharding Sphinx
Fabricate
Academy Ruins
Goblin Welder
Thopter Engineer
Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Hoarding Dragon
Pyromancer's Goggles
Epochrasite
Painter's Servant
Perilous Myr
Scarecrone
Wild-Field Scarecrow
Lodestone Golem
Solemn Simulacrum
Triskelion
Grim Poppet
Platinum Angel
Claws of Gix
Elixir of Immortality
Expedition Map
Panic Spellbomb
Synod Sanctum
Terrarion
Prophetic Prism
Temporal Aperture
Mimic Vat
Rings of Brighthearth
Serum Powder
Slayer's Plate
Temple Bell
Unstable Obelisk
Whispersilk Cloak
Eye of Doom
Grinning Totem
Muse Vessel
Trading Post
Ornate Kanzashi
Mindslaver
Spine of Ish Sah
Treasure Mage
Wizard Replica
Master Transmuter
Sharding Sphinx
Fabricate
Academy Ruins
Goblin Welder
Thopter Engineer
Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Hoarding Dragon
Pyromancer's Goggles
Epochrasite
Painter's Servant
Perilous Myr
Scarecrone
Wild-Field Scarecrow
Lodestone Golem
Solemn Simulacrum
Triskelion
Grim Poppet
Platinum Angel
Claws of Gix
Elixir of Immortality
Expedition Map
Panic Spellbomb
Synod Sanctum
Terrarion
Prophetic Prism
Temporal Aperture
Mimic Vat
Rings of Brighthearth
Serum Powder
Slayer's Plate
Temple Bell
Unstable Obelisk
Whispersilk Cloak
Eye of Doom
Grinning Totem
Muse Vessel
Trading Post
Ornate Kanzashi
Mindslaver
Spine of Ish Sah
Minor Themes
Random Conclusions
As you can sort of see, it has almost become an 'Selesnya vs Izzet' cube, as most of the themes are isolated into those colour pairs and they just share black around (who would have thought as black as the 'glue colour'?).
There were a lot of other smaller themes that people had started with little to no support that I didn't feel like mentioning them (UB untap, RUG high CMC, etc.) if you can pick out cards that are only for these themes and nothing else, bring them to my attention and they might get ousted after the cube is complete.
I was also pretty lenient on what I called 'removal'. By my count there was 50 cards out of the 300, which is a good enough spread at this point. Considering there are a lot of enchantments, it could be hard to figure out what the removal count should be. I think if we aim for AT LEAST 60 out of the 360, then that should be good enough to start.
Curves seem alright at this point. It peaks around 3-4, which is what I was hoping for. Red and black need some more 2 CMC cards, and red and white need more 4 CMC cards. The rest looks pretty smooth.
Hopefully that wasn't too much of a wall of text, I might throw a TLDR in later. But for now, let's throw in some more goodies:
For the artifact theme, a removal spell for either colour (forsightable, I think?), a black 2-drop + Lifegain, an interesting red two-drop.
Mmmm... I don't know how I feel about this post. First off there are 5 cards. I would like only 4 per post please. I am almost (and I mean very almost) will to take all 5 and take out Firemind's Foresight, as it will almost never get the numbers it needs to be able to run.
Rakdos's Return seems like a real beating, as this is a turn 4-5 format. Once you get to that point people will still have 4 cards in hand (maybe) and you can just rip them all away.
Call of the Skybreaker I don't mind, I would prefer that then the Foresight.
Mirari's Wake is probably doable. Still seems a bit strong, and we have a decent amount of GW cards already.
Assemble the Legion is also a little close to the strong side, but is also probably doable.
Hex is a little strange. I don't know how often there is going to be 6 creatures on the battlefield at all, let alone more on your opponents side of the field. Surely there is something more suited to the format than this.
I'm not going to put any in at this point until RBM throws their thoughts into the ring, unless you want to change some of the cards now, then by all means go ahead.
Whoops, I misread the rules of the post, sorry! I withdraw Hex from my 'pack'. The cards may be a tad on the strong side, but they're all exciting and fun buildarounds that make me excited to draft in a battle-cruiser format.