Really? Even as a kid it was bizarre to me that white had the big boom, and not black. Black is literally the 'kill things dead' color, so why does white have 'kill all the things'? "white is the color of balance!" was always a dumb answer to me while I stared at my opponent's glorious anthems etc. It's far far less of a stretch than pretty much anything else in planar chaos IMO.
Card/Deck Counterspells
- Thread starter CML
- Start date
It certainly is within black's realm of power. And it might even be more "black" than "white".
But Wrath seems very white to me and I like to keep that in that color. Nostalgia I guess.
Of all the color shifted stuff though, Damnation was the closest to getting a pass for the reasons you state.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Spell Pierce. It seems like a card I should be running. But for some reason (probably just confirmation bias) it seems every time I leave a mana open for it, they drop a dude instead of a spell and my plans get stymied because of it. So, I'd like to ask: is this card good in cube?
I tried Spell Pierce and I don't like it for the reason you stated. It's great value when it works. But too often it's just useless.
I think I've run it on and off over a period of two years, and it was mostly unplayable. But that's likely a product of my cube being 50% creatures, 15% lands, and only 35% spells. Even against the midrange or slower control decks, you wanted a more universal counter, because they were as equally likely to drop a Primeval Titan as a Garruk, Primal Hunter. I can see it being valuable in some kind of blue mirror counterspell war, but in practice, that kind of situation never came up. I then tried Negate for the past couple of months, but like Pierce, it was too narrow to be usable, even as a hard counter.
CML
Contributor
ugh i want to forget that time i had a few extra playables in my THS pool and ran a stymied hopes for the same reason chantron wrote above. it was a piece of shit and i hate myself for running it and blowing a chance at t8.
Spell Pierce is neato though certainly conditional on the kind of Cube you have. I like it over here but I'm sure it's better in Wadds's lower-margin Cube and totally awful in most other Cubes.
I'm gonna give Denial a shot, esp since it can act as Divination, kinda
Spell Pierce is neato though certainly conditional on the kind of Cube you have. I like it over here but I'm sure it's better in Wadds's lower-margin Cube and totally awful in most other Cubes.
I'm gonna give Denial a shot, esp since it can act as Divination, kinda
I don't know the exact reason why, but soft counters are all amazing here. Daze, Spell Pierce, Force Spike and Mana Tithe all get the job done.
Note that Spell Pierce becomes less "feel bad for holding mana open" the more instants you have. If you're like Eric and not running Dismember and Path for whatever reasons, a conditional 1-mana counter may be less useful.
Further, all conditional counters improve when you have a higher density of counters, because you have more situations where you can confidently hold open mana and just select the counter from your hand that is most appropriate for the situation.
Note that Spell Pierce becomes less "feel bad for holding mana open" the more instants you have. If you're like Eric and not running Dismember and Path for whatever reasons, a conditional 1-mana counter may be less useful.
Further, all conditional counters improve when you have a higher density of counters, because you have more situations where you can confidently hold open mana and just select the counter from your hand that is most appropriate for the situation.
CML
Contributor
I like these ideas, some Legacy decks for example run a split of {Daze Force} or {Daze Pierce Force} or {Daze Pierce Flusterstorm Force}. Free counterspells are one of the things that make Legacy sweet, but in the absence of those 1-mana counters are pretty wonderful, and Red gets them post-board.
I also like how Spell Pierce can be played around, but if you play around it, it's already kinda done its job. Conversely, I once tried to play around Spell Snare, but then I got infuriated that my troglo opponent wouldn't tap out on turn 5 or whatever so I jammed the Squadron Hawk anyway and had the self-loathing satisfaction of confirming my read.
My initiative for a higher concentration of counters is based, I realize now, on Wadds' last point. It's not so much I want to make "UW flash" in Cube, so much that I think such a thing is impossible, as impossible as RUG Delver, and am interested how far I can push things towards there without running the risk of bad design.
I also like how Spell Pierce can be played around, but if you play around it, it's already kinda done its job. Conversely, I once tried to play around Spell Snare, but then I got infuriated that my troglo opponent wouldn't tap out on turn 5 or whatever so I jammed the Squadron Hawk anyway and had the self-loathing satisfaction of confirming my read.
My initiative for a higher concentration of counters is based, I realize now, on Wadds' last point. It's not so much I want to make "UW flash" in Cube, so much that I think such a thing is impossible, as impossible as RUG Delver, and am interested how far I can push things towards there without running the risk of bad design.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I loathe Spell Pierce with the passion of a thousand Culling Suns.
I don't think UW Flash is anywhere close to impossible. You can't have a deck that plays almost entirely at instant speed as in Standard, but you don't need to take it that far.
I don't think UW Flash is anywhere close to impossible. You can't have a deck that plays almost entirely at instant speed as in Standard, but you don't need to take it that far.
After this thread I'm considering swapping out Mana Leak for something else. The card is just so good! Maybe Evasive Action will be a lot more interesting. Maybe Arcane Denial?
If some people here don't like Mana Leak, how do you guys feel about Counterspell? Not as annoying as Mana Leak? Maybe the problem is that Mana Leak is actually just Counterspell, but disguised as a conditional counter, whereas Counterspell is not pretending to be worse than it is.
If some people here don't like Mana Leak, how do you guys feel about Counterspell? Not as annoying as Mana Leak? Maybe the problem is that Mana Leak is actually just Counterspell, but disguised as a conditional counter, whereas Counterspell is not pretending to be worse than it is.
Laz
Developer
I have tried to make counter magic very clearly telegraphed (which is both a blessing and a curse). The fact that Mana Leak is 1U instead of UU is a big deal.
Also, twice as many contraptions? How can that be fair?
CML
Contributor
^^^ Now this is interesting, as I agree with Jason's philosophy where "he could have FoF or Cryptic, what do I do?" is awesome. Though this can obviously be taken too far in Constructed (ever try playing against Faeries in paper? Verbal stops on every phase; damned whatever you do as villain) I disagree with Dom that it can be taken too far in Cube, and I think we should have a (cordial) shouting match below about it
In poker, isn't it more fun to play against unpredictable opponents with wide ranges? In dating, aren't you bored if you don't get surprised sometimes?
In poker, isn't it more fun to play against unpredictable opponents with wide ranges? In dating, aren't you bored if you don't get surprised sometimes?
Laz
Developer
As I said in the first or second reply, counter magic is interesting emotionally. Being unable to resolve a spell just feels bad. As such, I have made a conscious decision to only include counters which just outright stop your spell if they have a UU in the cost (Except Daze. If you get caught by that, you are on your own). Non-UU counters just set you back, but don't take your sweet things away from you (e.g Memory Lapse, Remand, and, now that I know about it, Delay might come in).
The fact that all of the hard counters are UU means that leaving a couple of islands untapped is enough to cause the opponent to worry. The 'He could have FoF or Cryptic' dilemma is still real, nothing changes there, it is just if a player can't leave up double blue instead of one, then it is reasonably safe to cast whatever you need to resolve. I personally think the 'Do I tap out now or leave up mana for counter magic?' dilemma is much more interesting than 'He could have FoF or Cryptic, what do I do?' dilemma.
The fact that all of the hard counters are UU means that leaving a couple of islands untapped is enough to cause the opponent to worry. The 'He could have FoF or Cryptic' dilemma is still real, nothing changes there, it is just if a player can't leave up double blue instead of one, then it is reasonably safe to cast whatever you need to resolve. I personally think the 'Do I tap out now or leave up mana for counter magic?' dilemma is much more interesting than 'He could have FoF or Cryptic, what do I do?' dilemma.
i don't really get the why of counterspells feeling worse than just removal. there's such a big disconnect mentally for me. i also don't get why some players have a problem with runaway strategies in fighting games, and i think these are related somehow. unlike wotc, fighting game developers just dont give a shit and they put this stuff anyway and im glad they do
CML
Contributor
the average consumer of MTG is an idiot. you don't need this to be true for your cube!
though to be fair i used to think the same way, until i played with and against the standard mono-black deck. i do not know why some of my friends pissed away an entire day playing that bloody stool of a format in Yelm, WA, though fortunately there is no counterspell that gets all your guys at once ...
though to be fair i used to think the same way, until i played with and against the standard mono-black deck. i do not know why some of my friends pissed away an entire day playing that bloody stool of a format in Yelm, WA, though fortunately there is no counterspell that gets all your guys at once ...
Well, one difference is that a lot of duders have ETB effects that provide value even through removal, whereas they provide no value through countermagic. That means it's only a matter of time until Wizards prints cards that say "when you cast this spell, do X".
Oh right, Cascade.
Oh right, Cascade.
Laz
Developer
Frankly it's because as soon as your spell resolves you can fight back in one way or another
etc. etc. When your spell gets countered you don't get to do a single other thing, it's just over, and unless you're also playing counterspells (or you've got some real jank shit) you have no options even potentially available to you. Also removal doesn't kill artifacts or enchantments (and PWs are usually immune) that can change games, but counterspells don't care. Too all-encompassing to be compared to removal IMO.
I have Muddle the Mixture in my Combo Cube and it is a true delight. I'm not certain if it makes the cut in a normal cube though. I guess it just depends on how spell heavy your cube is and how many good things you can transmute for but when it's good it's very good.
i wonder how much of it has to do with basically only blue having usable counterspells.
i feel like if i was making a game like magic i would let more than one color have access to different kinds of counterspells. it is just a whole axis of interaction that only 1 out of 5 colors has access to.
3/5 colors can remove creatures, and blue can bounce/polymorph them and green can fight them. 2/5 colors can remove enchantments, blue can bounce them, and black/red can go cry. artifacts is the same story except red gets to remove those. planeswalkers, well, everyone can attack them, and all 5 colors have cards that in practice say "destroy target planeswalker" as a mode. even ignoring ghost quarter effects, 3/5 colors have 'destroy target land', blue again has bounce, and white has armageddon. though i'm not sure if wotc still considers that to be a white effect in modern design.
edit: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/65153612910/power-level-considerations-aside-if-you-printed
i guess it still is white
edit edit:
to clarify i sort of mean the problem with this is that they don't just see it as part of the game. playing as or against blue is basically a different game and it takes people out of their comfort zone. on the other hand if it was something every or at least or even just 2 or 3 colors could do to a limited degree it wouldn't be viewed as hatefully
i feel like if i was making a game like magic i would let more than one color have access to different kinds of counterspells. it is just a whole axis of interaction that only 1 out of 5 colors has access to.
3/5 colors can remove creatures, and blue can bounce/polymorph them and green can fight them. 2/5 colors can remove enchantments, blue can bounce them, and black/red can go cry. artifacts is the same story except red gets to remove those. planeswalkers, well, everyone can attack them, and all 5 colors have cards that in practice say "destroy target planeswalker" as a mode. even ignoring ghost quarter effects, 3/5 colors have 'destroy target land', blue again has bounce, and white has armageddon. though i'm not sure if wotc still considers that to be a white effect in modern design.
edit: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/65153612910/power-level-considerations-aside-if-you-printed
i guess it still is white
edit edit:
to clarify i sort of mean the problem with this is that they don't just see it as part of the game. playing as or against blue is basically a different game and it takes people out of their comfort zone. on the other hand if it was something every or at least or even just 2 or 3 colors could do to a limited degree it wouldn't be viewed as hatefully
My hopes went up when they printed Lapse of Certainty in white a few years back, as a way to give other colours access to different kinds of counterspells. But even though it wasn't any good - three mana is a lot to hold up in low-curve white weenie - Wizards decided it was still too powerful to give white tempo counters, and dropped that experiment entirely.
edit: NINJA'ED
edit: NINJA'ED
In theory, on the play against a do-nothing control deck, maybe. The "hold mana up to delay their Wrath for a turn" idea is sound. In practice, though, sometimes you're on the draw, and somtimes they go Tragic Slip, Spellskite. Sometimes, both of those things happen, and you fall behind in a hurry. A proactive deck like white weenie usually needs to keep tapping out with its minimal manabase just to keep the pressure on, and when these decks often curve out at four, it can mean not hitting that third land drop on schedule. Holding up three is even tougher when you need to continually deploy threats or risk having the opponent stabilize at a healthy life total.
With all that said, I suppose it didn't stop Paul Rietzl and Kai Budde from running Lapse of Certainty in their Pro Tour Amsterdam winning deck. So.. maybe it's worth a shot?
With all that said, I suppose it didn't stop Paul Rietzl and Kai Budde from running Lapse of Certainty in their Pro Tour Amsterdam winning deck. So.. maybe it's worth a shot?