Card/Deck Counterspells

whoops, as far as i knew lapse wasn't considered a playable card. i'm familiar with it because i wanted it to be good. i guess it was good after all or something? it really didn't seem possible at the time. that pro tour happened while i was taking a break from the game though. i wonder what thats in the board for.

still, the important parts of what i was saying still apply.

lower curves make a 3 mana counterspell worse in my experience because your opponent's things you want to counter can come out before you can hold up the mana for it
 

CML

Contributor
I like WW a lot and have trouble imagining a Cube / Standard matchup where I'd wanna bring in something like Lapse instead of just, you know, killing them
 

CML

Contributor
Yeah, but then they just do it again and you've held up your goofy counter instead of curving out. Or am I just wrong
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
What do you guys have as your counterspell density? I am running 14 monoblue counterspells (if you count Stifle...) in 360. I imagine this is on the high side, but I also don't really feel like it's excessive. Thoughts?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I've long felt that the strength of my blue tempo decks largely depended on my counterspell density. Maybe that's why other people have struggled with getting Delver decks to work?
 

CML

Contributor
19/450, which is higher, but I still want a few more. Definitely trying Delver again, though
 




How have those been for you? I'm running all of these.
I'm especially unsure about Daze and Delay and sometimes I find Calculated Dismissal and Dismiss somewhat slowish for what they do.
Concerning power level they fit better into my cube than Cryptic Command and I don't like cc3 counters that only scry 1.
Spell Snare actually hits a lot and Draining Whelk is the card that counters another big creature/spell and then plays the finisher role but is useless against fast aggro decks. Misdirection has yet to prove its worth, I just recently added it. Do you have experience with it?

The other counters I run are Counterspell, Mana Leak, Miscalculation, Condescend, Exclude, Remand, Prohibit, Memory Lapse, Ojutai's Command, Venser, Shaper Savant and Izzet Charm. Thought about Spell Pierce but I don't know.
 
I don't actually mind Hasbro's move towards unconditional counters all costing 1UU - it's the most powerful removal in the game! By the time you've Doom Bladed a thragtusk, it's too late to avoid the ETB / death triggers. But counterspell says no to everything! Counterspell kills both halves of an undying card. That's nasty! The closest any other color comes to that is White's plethora of Exile/tuck effects which still allow the ETB to go off, but block death triggers / undying.

If the counterspell only costs UU, I guess that would be fine too, but that pushes people towards monocolor or heavily lopsided 2 color. but at 1UU, two color (or more) decks with good fixing or a heavy blue commitment have a little more time to catch up to monocolor's ability to cast such a spell. Long live 1UU counterspell with upside! Who's with me!
 
I've got to admit that blue's my favourite colour and I often want to draft the deck with 15 counterspells but 1UU just sucks as it's nearly as unspashable as the regular counterspell. Also, counterspells aren't able to counter already played spells which removals like Doom Blade are able to do, despite triggering dying-abilities.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
If the counterspell only costs UU, I guess that would be fine too, but that pushes people towards monocolor or heavily lopsided 2 color. but at 1UU, two color (or more) decks with good fixing or a heavy blue commitment have a little more time to catch up to monocolor's ability to cast such a spell. Long live 1UU counterspell with upside! Who's with me!
Yeah, I'm with you there. I guess I wish there were some decent, splashable {2}{U} counterspells too, that are close to hard counterspells but not quite. I suppose there's Complicate, but the well is really dry here.

I was really high on Delay, but it underwhelmed over here in practise. It's a hard counterspell against any {X} spell, but aside from that, you have to be really sure you can still deal with that Thragtusk or whatever else in three turns' time. It was better in the tempo decks, but only marginally so, so I gave it the boot.

I was also optimistic about the spell mastery mechanic, but have realized in retrospect that it's off enough times that the card needs to be good enough without the rider. Unfortunately, for nearly all of the spell mastery cards, that isn't the case.

Unless your format is really high velocity and your players' decks typical cmc caps out at 3, or counterspell wars are prevalent between your blue decks when they go head-to-head, I think I prefer Negate is most cube environments to Spell Pierce. Pierce can be really good when either player is constrained on mana, but other times it's a stone dead card in your hand, which is frustrating.
 
um, what? they're just a different kind of disruption, proactive instead of reactive. Some spells can't be countered, some situational counters rot in your hand all game, sometimes you just have to commit to the board; i'm really, uh, really not with you. Dissolve is surprisingly nice and I'll never cut it but I really don't like the 1UU counterspell almost on principle.

From Mondschwein's list I like Spell Snare, Misdirection (quite often hardcast lategame), Daze and Whelk the most. Dismiss is nice but it's so slow and mana-intensive it never makes my final 40, I don't like Delay or Calculated Dismissal, if you want another 3-mana counter the new Scatter to the Winds is pretty good
 
I think I'm down to less than 10 counters. I've run more that that in the past, but it's a powerful effect and I feel like less is more so I've slowly been culling them.
 
I would sooner include a bunch of cool flash creatures, so that holding up 1UU is less difficult, than include any counters that can just go in every deck with a blue splash to stop almost any plan for cheep. Splashable narrower conditionals that suit some decks more than others seem fine tho. Stubborn Denial has been great for us!

From the Theros set I was just reading about:

1BB Rare
Instant
Destroy target creature or planeswalker. It can be regenerated and persist and stuff.

1UU Uncommon
Instant
Destroy target incoming creature, planeswalker, artifact, or enchantment. It can't be regenerated. Prevent its effects from triggering, and prevent it from triggering other cards' effects. Also scry 1! Wizards loves you. XOXO

To be fair, you have to have the mana up at the precise right time for the second card, and that's a real cost, but again, I'd sooner include other flashers, instants, and activated abilities (ludevic's test subject ftw!) for turns where you decide not to counter, than make it easier to cast the best removal in the game.
 
I'm at 14 out of 415, if you count judges familiar. An equal density for me would be 16.
Some that'd I'd consider adding to my ranks:
and or

EDIT: I love me some dissolve, Ferret. I think I have a stack of 15 or so somewhere. cool card.
 
I'm running:



I probably have room for one more at some point, but I've been pretty happy with this suite of counters for blue. If you count gold cards there's also access to:

 
2cmc counterspells are super necessary if your format pushes the curve down because they help keep players honest; it's important to be able to flexibly disrupt enemy plans outside of strict "removal spells"-style answers, and it promotes interesting bluffing scenarios to boot. Counterspells are great because they can serve as flexible answers to things like artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers, for which including specific removal is often difficult due to the sideboard-only nature of it in most formats and what a generally unexciting pick they turn out to be (I never peed my panties for Disenchant).

Counterspells have higher potential upside than removal, that's true, but as safra points out are reactive and can get stuck in your hand, which makes for a pretty serious downside (almost like there's some kind of balance, huh, weird). You also need a critical density in a deck to really count on them from a control angle, as randomly countering shit as you topdeck into your single counterspell is less valuable than early-turn, pilot-driven decisions about what to counter and when (a shortage of blue control spells also promotes the classic Pile o' Removal control deck, which I find to be much worse to face down and which I personally tend to default to in new lists because people are way stupider about white/black/red removal includes than their counterspell suite). Further, less counters means your players don't get the experience of considering how to use them, which reduces decisions and here at Riptide dot com, we are all about Making Decisions Happen. Obviously too many is a problem, but too few is also not cute.

imho a lot of the counterspell debate centers on your playgroup. There's a large swath of players who will cry foul if you Counterspell their Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief but will only grumble if it dies to Grasp of Darkness, and sometimes, you have to cater to those people. But if you get over that ingrained notion that blue is always unfair, and consider it objectively, counters are simply a different kind of removal, and can be played around accordingly. They also promote some cool mind games, which I dig.

Regardless of how you feel about all that, please consider how counterspells compare to your removal spells. Personally, nothing gets me giggling and closing a list like pulling up some Peasant/low-powered list and seeing all the shitty 3-4cmc counterspells in blue while black gets Doom Blade and white gets Journey to Nowhere. :rolleyes: Obviously you can do whatever you want with your format, it's your environment and I'm not going to tell you how to make it, and certainly, if your cube is a 9-mana showdown dragon-fest, by all means, run Dismiss if that's what tickles you. But if you're loading up on Fabled Hero, Courser of Kruphix, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Doom Blade, and Volcanic Hammer, I think you're better served considering a proportionate number of cards like Miscalculation, Condescend, and the like in blue.
 
I'm a big fan of counterspells. I think they add a layer of mind games and technical play with an elegant design. They are also such an important part of MtG that a cube would feel weird without any.

The ones I run:


Testing:


I ran Memory Lapse for a long time. It's better than it looks - when you counter an on-curve spell, the opponent loses the opportunity to cast that spell on-curve. Also for conditional spells, sweepers, etc, it really feels like a blowout. It's an interesting card which doesn't appeal to people who haven't played with it.

Dismiss really is slow. It's been on and off my cube for years. It's unplayable bad in fast formats and good in slow ones. In the end it's a situational card - it's only good if you can afford to leave 4 mana open, but then it's pretty good.
 
I would sooner include a bunch of cool flash creatures, so that holding up 1UU is less difficult, than include any counters that can just go in every deck with a blue splash to stop almost any plan for cheep. Splashable narrower conditionals that suit some decks more than others seem fine tho. Stubborn Denial has been great for us!

From the Theros set I was just reading about:

1BB Rare
Instant
Destroy target creature or planeswalker. It can be regenerated and persist and stuff.

1UU Uncommon
Instant
Destroy target incoming creature, planeswalker, artifact, or enchantment. It can't be regenerated. Prevent its effects from triggering, and prevent it from triggering other cards' effects. Also scry 1! Wizards loves you. XOXO

To be fair, you have to have the mana up at the precise right time for the second card, and that's a real cost, but again, I'd sooner include other flashers, instants, and activated abilities (ludevic's test subject ftw!) for turns where you decide not to counter, than make it easier to cast the best removal in the game.


I feel bad for always being sassy with ferret but it sound like dude always has mana up and never has to deal with spells that cost less than 3cc that one could probably play sequentially to avoid the wrath of your timing window tempo trade.

How much is being only open for a very specific timing window worth? Being more ubiquitous of what it can target rather than when it can target seems kinda fair to me but I agree removal does get kinda shafted, despite what the jokers on this forum seem to think.

My last two cube decks had a lot of creatures and a lot of counterspells in them but very little removal. It was mega tricky making the most of my hands and time.
 
I feel bad for always being sassy with ferret but it sound like dude always has mana up and never has to deal with spells that cost less than 3cc that one could probably play sequentially to avoid the wrath of your timing window tempo trade.
I don't feel extremely sassed, though that may be in part because I find some of the things you say difficult to read.

I searched for this thread, read through it, and revived it by stating my opinion so that I could learn what people's thoughts currently are. And it worked! Keep the thoughts coming y'all, but try to use more punctuation for very literal readers who have weak jargon-fu like me. :)
 
I like miscalculation a lot but I find it disappointing so often. It's like having it's own other card in hand you can spend mana on except that card costs 2 more mana (even if it can be payed over a couple turns) I guess the point is it's difficult to make the most of your mana when you're expected to spend some on your turn and also wait for your opponent to spend a bunch of theirs.
 
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