General Debate Topics

[Dom Harvey]

Note that wanting sideboards to be a thing is incompatible with the attitude some have of wanting players to navigate the draft very carefully, fight for manafixing, and so on. You can have that added focus during the draft, but only at the expense of deckbuilding and sideboarding.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Note that wanting sideboards to be a thing is incompatible with the attitude some have of wanting players to navigate the draft very carefully, fight for manafixing, and so on. You can have that added focus during the draft, but only at the expense of deckbuilding and sideboarding.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Can you elaborate?

 

[Dom Harvey]

If your Cube is constructed so that you have to work to get 23 good playables by the end - say, because the manafixing is scarce enough that you have to take it over good spells for your deck - then it's much harder to justify taking a pick off to grab a sideboard card. This is perhaps less of a worry in typical powermax Cubes, where you can assemble a deck out of 'good cards' without relying on specific synergies coming together, but these Cubes are often managed with the (IMO misguided) philosophy that players should have to fight for manafixing.

By contrast, you can have a Cube where there isn't a concern (whether because you have more manafixing or it's artificially avoided via stuff like multipicks). The draft itself might require less skill, because you can make a few wrong/wasted picks and still have a deck, but because of that you can afford to pick up sideboard cards and thereby have that dynamic in play during your matches.

The more likely issue for RL Cubes is that we have more cards that work only in a certain context, which 'crowd out' sideboard cards (or dedicated ones at least) because you can only have so many situational cards.

 

[ahadabans]

likely issue for RL Cubes is that we have more cards that work only in a certain context, which 'crowd out' sideboard cards (or dedicated ones at least) because you can only have so many situational cards.

I agree with this. My crowd is very casual so that could also play a part in it, but I find side boards are a lot less critical in limited play than in constructed. In constructed, they are flat out required once you get to a certain level of competitiveness and deck building (against my spike friend, it was required because he built tournament level decks).

In limited though? I just don't see it being a huge factor most of the time. Again, maybe some of you are playing with pro level players and I just don't know how limited works at that level of play (totally possible - I have not played a huge amount of limited to be fair), but I can't help but think that for the average FNM player side boards don't play a huge role.

 

[Eric Chan]

To add to Dom's point, the other nice thing about having a relatively flat power level and abundant fixing in a cube is that you're able to pivot and change gears before you feel yourself getting trainwrecked in a draft. You might think that you want to force blue tempo in this draft, and start off with a Vendilion Clique, and follow that up with a Remand and a Snapcaster Mage. But by the middle of pack one, you might realize that you haven't seen a blue card since, but that, on the flip side, the green ramp cards are flowing like a river. Despite wasting your first four or five picks, you know that you have enough time to switch directions and right the ship before you plow it straight into an iceberg.

This is obviously also applicable to regular retail limited, but is a little easier to pull off in cubes where you know you won't be lacking in playables, giving you more leeway to read the signals, exercise some patience, and organically discover the best deck for your seat.

 

[Lucre]

I really like the idea of doubling up on witness snapcaster and pyromancer, anyone wana tell me why that would be awful?

 

[ahadabans]

I really like the idea of doubling up on witness snapcaster and pyromancer, anyone wana tell me why that would be awful?

Double snapcaster could be really powerful depending. But I'm in favor of testing this. I love all three of these cards.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I have dubs SCM/Pyromancer already, Witness could work I suppose

 

[Jason Waddell]

I tried multi Young Pyromancer and it was kind of ass.

 

[Eric Chan]

I actually ordered a second copy of Young Pyromancer for my next cube update. I'm not sure it'll actually pan out, but what's the worst that could happen by trying?

 

[Jason Waddell]

I actually ordered a second copy of Young Pyromancer for my next cube update. I'm not sure it'll actually pan out, but what's the worst that could happen by trying?

For the record I was also running, like, triple Gitaxian Probe. I pretty much maximized the conditions for YP and didn't feel it was really worth it. Well, maximized it short of Storming out. I'm sure Dom has a different take.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Not worth it as far as Cube Slots, or not powerful enough when drafted?

 

[anotak]

Not worth it as far as Cube Slots, or not powerful enough when drafted?

i had a deck w/ 3 of them and i went 1-2 when we drafted through cockatrice + skype

http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/inaugural-riplab-draft-february-9th-sunday.412/page-3#post-14336
list is here, there's vids on the next page

edit: speaking of that we should totally do that again

 

[CML]

For the record I was also running, like, triple Gitaxian Probe. I pretty much maximized the conditions for YP and didn't feel it was really worth it. Well, maximized it short of Storming out. I'm sure Dom has a different take.

i vaguely agree, i guess we're running these to maximize UR tempo as a thing? well good fucking luck with all those gravecrawlers. and even if it worked it wouldn't be worth the slots / lost diversity

i really just don't like breaking singleton unless there's a very good reason to do so, in which case, you know, do your thing. but it does have some downside that we should probably talk about a little more on these pages?

4 Pods
3 Crawlers
4 Brainstorms
2 Ponders
2 Fetches
2 Shocks

 

[Changling Bob]

i had a deck w/ 3 of them and i went 1-2 when we drafted through cockatrice + skype

http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/inaugural-riplab-draft-february-9th-sunday.412/page-3#post-14336
list is here, there's vids on the next page

edit: speaking of that we should totally do that again

Looking at that deck list, if you're trying to get value out of young pyro while the cube's power level is inferno titan and bonfire, I'm not convinced it's going to work out. That's some pretty disparate power level.

 

[anotak]

Looking at that deck list, if you're trying to get value out of young pyro while the cube's power level is inferno titan and bonfire, I'm not convinced it's going to work out. That's some pretty disparate power level.

the constructed format where i've seen pyromancer be the most effective is legacy, so i'm not sure if comparing it to the power level around it alone is really correct

 

[Changling Bob]

Well sure, if you have free choice of any extant card to put in your deck, you can build whatever combo you feel like (modulo ability to win turn 2 or whatever the target is). If you have to draft the cards, the chances of the good pyro deck coming together is lower than the chance of the good inferno titan and bonfire deck coming together.

 

[anotak]

I DID have a deck where pyromancer should shine though, where 10 of my cards interacted positively with it, and then i had 3 pyromancers, and it was still quite weak. this was in addition to the purphoros, god of the forge that also makes them stronger

and perhaps you misunderstand, the legacy decks running it are not combo decks but tempo decks. they trigger it with cards like lightning bolt, brainstorm, cabal therapy, and daze.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Yeah, it shouldn't be too difficult to make young pyro good. I haven't watched the videos yet, were there any cards in particular that you played against that hurt it?

 

[Jonas]

I've been kicking ass with young pyro, but you need something like ogre battle-driver, or purphy or something else that actually makes him do something.

 

[Dom Harvey]

The key to making Young Pyromancer good isn't getting some minor additional value out of your spells but exploiting the tokens - Opposition, Attrition/Grave Pact, Dark Prophecy/Fecundity, equipment, Purphoros, Dread Return, Windbrisk Heights, whatever.

If you are going to mess around with it by playing a bunch of spells, it has to be more effectual than just Gitaxian Probe; something like Prey's Vengeance as a two-shot combat trick + way of forcing through damage that also happens to give you two tokens.

Also most of the people who want to do 'fair' things with it disavow not just Storm but cards under that general umbrella - stuff like Snap or Frantic Search - and as a result you're just playing a worse fair game than people with a normal plan.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I've got double young pryomancer and he's really great. Whenever he lives for any period of time, he's churning out a lot of tokens, and most people just kill him on sight here.

Seriously, red 2 drops don't need this much building around. R1 for a 2/1 make 2-3 guys is more than fine.

 

[Changling Bob]

Seriously, red 2 drops don't need this much building around. R1 for a 2/1 make 2-3 guys is more than fine.

And I suspect the cubes for which pyro don't make a good showing, that's not good enough because of heavy top-end or heavy control, and that's probably too much power in the cube. My prefered power level is below that; it's probably one of those 'do you prefer games to feel like constructed or limited' things.

 

[Lucre]

I'm with bob on this one. Lots of cubes here are doing more interesting things than attacking for two and generating small advantages. I'm surprised it didn't work in jason's but I expect it's a problem of putting a lot of force behind a lightweight and expecting serious results. I like that card because it does a lot of cool things to help strategies that used to be kinda shallow, and you'll notice the company I recommended with it. It's a card you'll love if you are interested in cards like frantic search or the like. If you are interested in delver or other weird cool stuff.

 

[CML]

The key to making Young Pyromancer good isn't getting some minor additional value out of your spells but exploiting the tokens - Opposition, Attrition/Grave Pact, Dark Prophecy/Fecundity, equipment, Purphoros, Dread Return, Windbrisk Heights, whatever.

If you are going to mess around with it by playing a bunch of spells, it has to be more effectual than just Gitaxian Probe; something like Prey's Vengeance as a two-shot combat trick + way of forcing through damage that also happens to give you two tokens.

Also most of the people who want to do 'fair' things with it disavow not just Storm but cards under that general umbrella - stuff like Snap or Frantic Search - and as a result you're just playing a worse fair game than people with a normal plan.

yo get ppl to draft your cube