General "Draw a card."
- Thread starter CML
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
To hopefully clarify some context, it was this specific exert from the article that made me pause:
I suspect it’s more of a question of degrees, but that seemed a little extreme for me. However, I don't want to give people the idea that having a format where top decking occurs is necessarily a bad or an unusual thing.
As an aside, I thought this was interesting:
The first cliche 5 color good stuff draft decks?
It’s kind of funny that this format seems to commit so many sins: low tempo, powerful cheap removal, weaker threats relative to removal, excessive fixing--but still managed to produce a successful and beloved draft environment.
I suspect it’s more of a question of degrees, but that seemed a little extreme for me. However, I don't want to give people the idea that having a format where top decking occurs is necessarily a bad or an unusual thing.
As an aside, I thought this was interesting:
The first cliche 5 color good stuff draft decks?
It’s kind of funny that this format seems to commit so many sins: low tempo, powerful cheap removal, weaker threats relative to removal, excessive fixing--but still managed to produce a successful and beloved draft environment.
CML
Contributor
yep i'm with you. would require careful power level mgmt though
legacy does only to a lesser extent but you're right. some guy ripped lilly into shardless into deathrite tonight whilst hellbent with his BUG delver deck. it was awesome i ground him out with my dumb manland
christ is that characterization inaccurate. whoever wrote this is a philistine. now that i google it i see it is watkins, whose quantitative analysis is fascinating and excellent -- we here owe a lot to him, and i mean that, and it would be a disservice to him to focus on anything but his numbers and graphs. moving into the realm of text, his twitter feed, for example, once detailed a trip to WotC headquarters where he expressed his admiration and trust for the Modo dev team. this was some time before Kiblergate.
anyway you should trust me instead. there was way more to do on every turn in that format than any other format, more cards in hand etc. this isn't Zendikar "after the dust settles" we're talking about. as for the 5c point, i am sure i've seen it before and used it to ridicule the idea that having that be a thing is bad, since drafting 5c was hilarious and tough to pull off and pretty rare, and there was a lot of counterplay from faster decks. you could do basically anything 2-5 colors. signets were significantly worse than bouncelands.
you're right that maybe it shouldn't've worked, but it's more interesting to me to consider that maybe these attributes, generally looked upon as negative here and elsewhere (and rightly so w/r/t cube), were virtues when considered together. at tied it all together was a low average power level that was pretty flat, or at least context-dependent. that and cantrippin' balls
The guy who won the pro tour (draft rav block) had no signets, bouncelands or cantrips in his deck. Some beat down, fatties and utopia sprawl! I think we need to do a bit more research to understand why it was so good.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/ptpra06/t8decks
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/ptpra06/t8decks
CML
Contributor
there was the "jund deck," which tried to cheese people. with 19 mana sources i'm surprised he didn't play living inferno, along with the traditionally sweet gather courage and silhana ledgewalker.
more importantly:
more importantly:
silhana ledgewalker was one of my favorite cards from Guildpact.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Invisible Stalker 1.0? Really?
If only we had a thread dedicated to comparing scry and card draw...
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/how-many-scry-is-worth-a-card.535/
Cycling and scry are two of the best abilities in the game IMO because of what they do to card quality.
I played a lot of the RWB deck, and I felt like most of the time my creatures were pretty on par with todays, except maybe Blind Hunters or whatnot, which still felt like they had a lot of power and Ostiary Thrull, which was removal I could attack with if I had drawn the rest of my removal. That deck was pretty aggressive but it's creatures tended to stay within the 2/2 range for the most part.
It was also just a lot safer if you had a gruul or jund aggro player at your table trying to prey on the signets and compulsive decks.
Other points:
- I hated drafting 4-5 colours in that format and so did most of my friends. I knew splashing was fine at times but you felt really ripe to be punished in the drafting process and in the games for over reaching and not taking more flexible cards.
- CML is right, I remember a lot of games where I would consistently have multiple lines into late turns, even when I was playing relatively card light archetypes. Mechanics like Haunt and onboard tricks that are less NWO friendly might have had something to do with this, and I know that land sequencing played a big role in this.
- I'm really not sure if I agree with CML on the lower than average power level but I've missed a lot of draft formats since that block.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
yes no yes yes yes no yes yes yes yes no yes yes yes dear god of course not wtf is wrong with you yes no no no no yes no no yes no yes yes yes yes no yes no yes
CML
Contributor
Snakeform should be played in more cubes, seeing as it's an artifact with flash.
Sarcastic comment about how to allocate hybrids?
I don't know if I'm just susceptible to group think or if our ideas all converge around solid principles, but I do like the thought of maximising card draw, cycling and scry effects in order to lead to more interesting, interactive and less mana screwed games. I think there is some intersection here with the reducing aggro/ changing how you design for aggro as to be honest most of the cards we've been talking about here are traditionally for midrange and control.
I think a cantrips only cube might be fun for the novelty factor but I doubt it's good design by itself. One of the mother ship articles about conspiracy talked about parlay and the other "all players draw a card" designs in the set to make sure that all players have 'action' and I think this has merit when considering cantrips etc. I think more cubes should be playing
...Particularly if you utility land draft. Re your massive card list above
Pyrite spellbomb - seems good in principle but not that exciting in practice. Might be okay if it intersects with lots of themes, like the artifact deck cards, furnace celebration, trinket Mage etc.
Akromas vengence- rarely cycled, expensive wrath, not that interesting.
Azorius charm - two colours of mana make it harder to cycle in the early game, unlikely to make you move into blue white, dull.
Carven caryatid - good card, hurts aggro, but not sure that's terrible. You might want to make sure aggro has evasion and falters
Complicate - fine, not the most efficient counterspell but that's not terrible, can be thrilling to force spike a spell and draw a card
Disrupt - depends on how many instants and sorceries you have, but likely to be too variable and will wheel, be left in sideboards
Dragon mantle - I think it's good, comes down to space and direction you want
Erebos - interesting card that makes you prioritise life gain and heavy black spells. I like.
Exclude - can be feel quite mean, but is a more restrictive counterspell, so not a bad thing, I used to run it.
Explore- fine, if a little unexciting but good to help smooth out draws.
Heartwood storyteller - seems a little restrictive and obviously symetrical, would be interested if people give it a try
Into the roil - I think most of us play this, good.
Ninja of the deep hours - I've recently added it, will see how it goes, but like that it puts a bit of proactive pressure on and helps five blue a different flavour
Aether spellbomb - see pyrite above. Might be a better colour but more dull.
Psychic vortex - give it a try, feels a bit restrictive and you obv can't hold up counterspells, what sort of deck would you play it in? Reminds me of aggressive mining.
Radiants judgement - good, like it.
Reprocess - I've never been able to get it work, I don't think the cards are worth the investment, particularly at sorcery speed.
Rerout - feels too restrictive, unlikely to be played.
Scouts warning - I quite like this, have it in my decision cube.
Shadow of doubt - if you have lots of fetches in your cube, then play it, otherwise feels restrictive and potentially feel bad.
Snakeform - I like it and am playing it. Gives more interest to green.
Soul of the harvest - could be okay, but would probably want more for that mana cost, there are other more interesting ways to generate incremental advantage at that cost I think.
Squelch - I think Jason is trying this. Good against fetches, not sure how good it is against other things.
Staff of nin - I like it but not all that powerful, I think it could work if you were taking the cube more in this direction and cool in laz's cube with his tinker package.
Symbiotic deployment - urgh.
Triumph of ferocity- I like and think could be a good addition to green. Nice mini game.
Unearth - fine, not sure it does enough though. Would prob rather have barren moor in my deck. Filler.
Wall of blossoms - sweet.
Well of knowledge - not sure how to evaluate this. A ramp card? Only good if you have stabilised or are winning?
Whispers of the muse - fine, but you're not going to buyback all that often are you? Would you rather have opt?
Wild dogs - need green aggro to be a thing, but I think you want to make your aggro more interesting and robust than this.
Whistful selkie - that mana cost... There are better things to do at 3 unless you have some heavy devotion thing going on.
I think a cantrips only cube might be fun for the novelty factor but I doubt it's good design by itself. One of the mother ship articles about conspiracy talked about parlay and the other "all players draw a card" designs in the set to make sure that all players have 'action' and I think this has merit when considering cantrips etc. I think more cubes should be playing
...Particularly if you utility land draft. Re your massive card list above
Pyrite spellbomb - seems good in principle but not that exciting in practice. Might be okay if it intersects with lots of themes, like the artifact deck cards, furnace celebration, trinket Mage etc.
Akromas vengence- rarely cycled, expensive wrath, not that interesting.
Azorius charm - two colours of mana make it harder to cycle in the early game, unlikely to make you move into blue white, dull.
Carven caryatid - good card, hurts aggro, but not sure that's terrible. You might want to make sure aggro has evasion and falters
Complicate - fine, not the most efficient counterspell but that's not terrible, can be thrilling to force spike a spell and draw a card
Disrupt - depends on how many instants and sorceries you have, but likely to be too variable and will wheel, be left in sideboards
Dragon mantle - I think it's good, comes down to space and direction you want
Erebos - interesting card that makes you prioritise life gain and heavy black spells. I like.
Exclude - can be feel quite mean, but is a more restrictive counterspell, so not a bad thing, I used to run it.
Explore- fine, if a little unexciting but good to help smooth out draws.
Heartwood storyteller - seems a little restrictive and obviously symetrical, would be interested if people give it a try
Into the roil - I think most of us play this, good.
Ninja of the deep hours - I've recently added it, will see how it goes, but like that it puts a bit of proactive pressure on and helps five blue a different flavour
Aether spellbomb - see pyrite above. Might be a better colour but more dull.
Psychic vortex - give it a try, feels a bit restrictive and you obv can't hold up counterspells, what sort of deck would you play it in? Reminds me of aggressive mining.
Radiants judgement - good, like it.
Reprocess - I've never been able to get it work, I don't think the cards are worth the investment, particularly at sorcery speed.
Rerout - feels too restrictive, unlikely to be played.
Scouts warning - I quite like this, have it in my decision cube.
Shadow of doubt - if you have lots of fetches in your cube, then play it, otherwise feels restrictive and potentially feel bad.
Snakeform - I like it and am playing it. Gives more interest to green.
Soul of the harvest - could be okay, but would probably want more for that mana cost, there are other more interesting ways to generate incremental advantage at that cost I think.
Squelch - I think Jason is trying this. Good against fetches, not sure how good it is against other things.
Staff of nin - I like it but not all that powerful, I think it could work if you were taking the cube more in this direction and cool in laz's cube with his tinker package.
Symbiotic deployment - urgh.
Triumph of ferocity- I like and think could be a good addition to green. Nice mini game.
Unearth - fine, not sure it does enough though. Would prob rather have barren moor in my deck. Filler.
Wall of blossoms - sweet.
Well of knowledge - not sure how to evaluate this. A ramp card? Only good if you have stabilised or are winning?
Whispers of the muse - fine, but you're not going to buyback all that often are you? Would you rather have opt?
Wild dogs - need green aggro to be a thing, but I think you want to make your aggro more interesting and robust than this.
Whistful selkie - that mana cost... There are better things to do at 3 unless you have some heavy devotion thing going on.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The problem with Dragon Mantle is that it takes forever to do anything. Unless you cast it on something that can abuse it (which there aren't many), putting mana into while you still have live cads is probably the wrong choice. While it doesn't fit in the "draw a card thread", I think I'd almost always prefer Hammerhand for beating down or mark of fury for trigger abusing. I guess this card sort of does both, which counts for something, but I think my cube would have to slow down a bit before I would use it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
A lot of these are going to be very meta dependent, but commentary on the cards i've run or thought of running.
azorius charm: Narrow because of color requirements, really wants a U/W tempo deck or U/W control deck. Otherwise great.
carven caryatid: Good card, but curve dependent on whether you want aggro facing down a two power and five toughness blocker on turn three.
explore: great
into the roil: Good bounce spell for control decks. The instant speed might be an issue if you are pushing combat tricks.
ninja of the deep hours: Like it, just make sure your format isn't so fast that you can't ninjitsu due to the tempo loss.
shadow of doubt: like it, but worth is proportional to tutor density.
squelch: too narrow for my tastes
wall of blossoms: great card, but again curve dependent on whether you want aggro facing down a four toughness blocker on turn two.
whispers of the muse: This is really good in slow, grindy, formats more focused on late game card advantage.
azorius charm: Narrow because of color requirements, really wants a U/W tempo deck or U/W control deck. Otherwise great.
carven caryatid: Good card, but curve dependent on whether you want aggro facing down a two power and five toughness blocker on turn three.
explore: great
into the roil: Good bounce spell for control decks. The instant speed might be an issue if you are pushing combat tricks.
ninja of the deep hours: Like it, just make sure your format isn't so fast that you can't ninjitsu due to the tempo loss.
shadow of doubt: like it, but worth is proportional to tutor density.
squelch: too narrow for my tastes
wall of blossoms: great card, but again curve dependent on whether you want aggro facing down a four toughness blocker on turn two.
whispers of the muse: This is really good in slow, grindy, formats more focused on late game card advantage.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I could see playing all of the except Sage of Epityr, that card is just terribad. Court Hussar is also a bit suspect, as it really isn't worth it without the body, and 
has better options.
has better options.