Eric Chan's Modern cube (405)
- Thread starter Eric Chan
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
Both of those are actually quite nice. Kranny I know has had a lot of success with Mutagenic Growth, and I know Searing Blaze in any flavor is sweet
Lucas, I'm gonna man up and say that you were right and I was wrong. You know in that deck I played tonight - my awful BUG reanimator pile - what I really could've used? Yep. Night's Whisper. Totally would've smoothed my draws and dug me into the pieces I needed. I mean, this is as close to a durdly combo deck as it gets in a cube like mine, and what does a deck like that want more than cheap draw twos?
I'd kind of tricked myself into thinking Modern reanimator was a real deck, after doing some sample drafts on cubetutor and ending up with semi playable lists, like this:
And this:
Turns out in a real draft, people are cacking both your fatties for their ungodly 5cc decks, and your reanimation spells (!) for pure value.
I'd kind of tricked myself into thinking Modern reanimator was a real deck, after doing some sample drafts on cubetutor and ending up with semi playable lists, like this:
And this:
Turns out in a real draft, people are cacking both your fatties for their ungodly 5cc decks, and your reanimation spells (!) for pure value.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! +2cards for 2 mana in a format with a lot of midranged decks is pretty stellar!
That was a blast! My RG aggro deck got blown out so many times that night but when it worked it just ran you over in the first 3 turns. I haven't played a deck like that in ages!
Patrick really got my goat with that rebounding burn spell! Not sure what the 2/2 deck is supposed to do about it, but it was a real rush. I wonder how Red and green aggro decks can keep themselves full of gas.
Other highlights:
I forgot how much of a beast wall of omens is.
RG aggro deck losing to delver via briberies.
My friends that never draft winning all of their matches!
That was a blast! My RG aggro deck got blown out so many times that night but when it worked it just ran you over in the first 3 turns. I haven't played a deck like that in ages!
Patrick really got my goat with that rebounding burn spell! Not sure what the 2/2 deck is supposed to do about it, but it was a real rush. I wonder how Red and green aggro decks can keep themselves full of gas.
Other highlights:
I forgot how much of a beast wall of omens is.
RG aggro deck losing to delver via briberies.
My friends that never draft winning all of their matches!
Yep, I agree, Staggershock has been on my shit list for a long time. Matthew (the guy you played against in the last round) looooooooves that card, and he'll just about draft Jund midrange every single time. I'm usually the beatdown, and without fail he nukes me hard with rebound shenanigans too. Consider that card cut.
Man, your friends are ringers. They haven't played since, what, 2003? One managed to draft the nut blue tempo deck, complete with multiple Delvers, Tiago, Runechanter's Pike, and the full set of Rune Snags. Are they Magic-playing prodigies removed from another era?
Heh, it's funny you mention midrange, because one of my primary goals is to get away from all midrange goodstuff mirrors. It's a tricky balancing act, though. As you can probably tell, the pendulum has swung a little too far towards the aggro end, and control decks are not nearly as viable as they used to be. I think that a lot of this has to do with trimming the best planeswalkers (Elspeth, Gideon, and super-Jace), so I'll need to come up with more creative ways to give them a little kick.
Man, your friends are ringers. They haven't played since, what, 2003? One managed to draft the nut blue tempo deck, complete with multiple Delvers, Tiago, Runechanter's Pike, and the full set of Rune Snags. Are they Magic-playing prodigies removed from another era?
Heh, it's funny you mention midrange, because one of my primary goals is to get away from all midrange goodstuff mirrors. It's a tricky balancing act, though. As you can probably tell, the pendulum has swung a little too far towards the aggro end, and control decks are not nearly as viable as they used to be. I think that a lot of this has to do with trimming the best planeswalkers (Elspeth, Gideon, and super-Jace), so I'll need to come up with more creative ways to give them a little kick.
Eric you should do what I do when people argue for the inclusion of a card you consider weak: let people just bring the card with them (or take it from your on-deck binder) and included it in their decks without drafting them. It's what I do with the guy always pushing for Aether Vial. Somedays you'll find a card is stronger then you give it credit for. Usually though it's just players who have pet cards or don't have a strong familiarity with your environment yet.
Of course, as a designer you still have to decide whether you want that card effect in your environment.
Of course, as a designer you still have to decide whether you want that card effect in your environment.
You guys are so full of good ideas.
I'm not sure taking out the staggershock is completely necessary. It's such a cool card, but I cans see how you can be worried about something like that. It's quite the mini bonfire.
I didn't get into enough games to really judge but I felt like I was on the clock every game with my opener and my first 2 draws as the real telling element of the game. It's probably because I didn't mainboard the LD but I also didn't want to lose consistency or have to play my mana elves. I was thinking about how an aggressive deck without an incredible amount of burn was supposed to work it's way out from under a sun titan or value beasts without just keeping them off of those cards. I'm not saying those cards are the problem. I think 4 and 6cc dudes should be game changers, but thinking about how to get around them without playing 3 colours is kinda interesting. It feels like one wall of omens or staggershock really brings you into the realm where a six drop or thragtusk is a possibility and then you crossing your fingers something will go very right vs your koth / equipment / thundermaw. I can only imagine it's scarier vs a card like tamiyo or whatever.
I don't think that's to say I think life should be too easy for the aggro decks. The games I did well in looked like they were absolutely no fun for an oponent trying to draw out of my curve, though they were elated when they did.
I think It was more of a problem of not having enough gas most games though. I can't wait to draft a deck like that again.
It's funny you mention Night's Whisper, because on my way home I was thinking about how a black red aggressive deck usually doesn't have these sort of gas problems or trouble creating early disruption and recovering from losing cards. It is way better when you have a lot of 1cc or free spells but I ram night's whisper in a lot of decks I play confidant in. I wonder how RG aggro gets more cards? I guess it just tries to have relevant guys through more of the game.
Great time though! I was really rusty so it was nice to throw down a bunch of 1 and 2 drops and see it go!
I'm not sure taking out the staggershock is completely necessary. It's such a cool card, but I cans see how you can be worried about something like that. It's quite the mini bonfire.
I didn't get into enough games to really judge but I felt like I was on the clock every game with my opener and my first 2 draws as the real telling element of the game. It's probably because I didn't mainboard the LD but I also didn't want to lose consistency or have to play my mana elves. I was thinking about how an aggressive deck without an incredible amount of burn was supposed to work it's way out from under a sun titan or value beasts without just keeping them off of those cards. I'm not saying those cards are the problem. I think 4 and 6cc dudes should be game changers, but thinking about how to get around them without playing 3 colours is kinda interesting. It feels like one wall of omens or staggershock really brings you into the realm where a six drop or thragtusk is a possibility and then you crossing your fingers something will go very right vs your koth / equipment / thundermaw. I can only imagine it's scarier vs a card like tamiyo or whatever.
I don't think that's to say I think life should be too easy for the aggro decks. The games I did well in looked like they were absolutely no fun for an oponent trying to draw out of my curve, though they were elated when they did.
I think It was more of a problem of not having enough gas most games though. I can't wait to draft a deck like that again.
It's funny you mention Night's Whisper, because on my way home I was thinking about how a black red aggressive deck usually doesn't have these sort of gas problems or trouble creating early disruption and recovering from losing cards. It is way better when you have a lot of 1cc or free spells but I ram night's whisper in a lot of decks I play confidant in. I wonder how RG aggro gets more cards? I guess it just tries to have relevant guys through more of the game.
Great time though! I was really rusty so it was nice to throw down a bunch of 1 and 2 drops and see it go!
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Do you have MrRinger's Blue Tempo List? (It might be Dennix but I'm not sure, you said there was more than one ringer)
Also small quibble: Nights whisper is +1, not +2
Also small quibble: Nights whisper is +1, not +2
Glad you enjoyed it! I think your analysis of red decks, and aggressive decks in general, is on the money. Against the slower, durdly midrange decks, your best bet is often to go under them, by playing enough cheap threats to keep them on the back foot all game. I find that having an ultra-low curve is paramount to succeeding at that goal. Take a look at the red deck that won the last draft we did: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/decks-that-have-3-0d-your-cube.47/page-2#post-1074
It looked to me like your deck did a good job of sticking to a tight curve, though I didn't see exactly how it was laid out. You probably could've used one or two more burn spells to nug opponents hanging on by a thread, but I don't think I would've done too much differently from your seat. Red was definitely the right colour to be in, considering the only other primary red drafter was across from you! Not playing those mana elves was probably the right call, because from what I could make out, you were really essentially an RDW deck with a light splash of green.
On Night's Whisper - and not to dredge up the whole back-and-forth we had - I still wouldn't play it in an ultra aggressive deck, like the one I linked to. I find that reach and tempo are far more important to the aggro decks than draw spells and card advantage. I mean, nobody's turning down a Bob for their attacking decks, but by the same token, Mulldrifter might not have a place in a Delver deck. That's kind of how I see Night's Whisper - something to boost the (admittedly bad) "combo" decks more than a aggro deck hand refiller. Not to say it can't play both roles, of course.
It looked to me like your deck did a good job of sticking to a tight curve, though I didn't see exactly how it was laid out. You probably could've used one or two more burn spells to nug opponents hanging on by a thread, but I don't think I would've done too much differently from your seat. Red was definitely the right colour to be in, considering the only other primary red drafter was across from you! Not playing those mana elves was probably the right call, because from what I could make out, you were really essentially an RDW deck with a light splash of green.
On Night's Whisper - and not to dredge up the whole back-and-forth we had - I still wouldn't play it in an ultra aggressive deck, like the one I linked to. I find that reach and tempo are far more important to the aggro decks than draw spells and card advantage. I mean, nobody's turning down a Bob for their attacking decks, but by the same token, Mulldrifter might not have a place in a Delver deck. That's kind of how I see Night's Whisper - something to boost the (admittedly bad) "combo" decks more than a aggro deck hand refiller. Not to say it can't play both roles, of course.
Denyx (sp?) was there, too, and he drafted a really sweet black/white deck with a lot of synergy. Reveillark for Nekrataal, don't mind if I do.
Brian was the one with the blue/white tempo deck, and unfortunately, it's been lost to the wind (read: I shuffled that whole mess in... whoops). From what I remember, he also had Ancestral Vision, Isamaru, both Champion of the Parishes, and perhaps a Colonnade. Lucas, you played against him - do you have a better recollection?
Brian was the one with the blue/white tempo deck, and unfortunately, it's been lost to the wind (read: I shuffled that whole mess in... whoops). From what I remember, he also had Ancestral Vision, Isamaru, both Champion of the Parishes, and perhaps a Colonnade. Lucas, you played against him - do you have a better recollection?
I think he had
3x Rune Snag
2x Champion of the Parrish
2x Delver of Secrets
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Coral Helm Guy
1x New manowar guy
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Isamaru
1x wall of omens
1x Remand
1x Cancel
1x bribery
1x Ancestral Visions
1x Oblivion ring
1x Jace the new guy
1x some kinda ponder
1x Adarkar Wastes
2x hallowed fountain
1x flooded strand
1x SHELL DOXXX
Can't really remember what else.
Bryan Tran is one of Denix's pals that we've really come to know through boardgame night and the occasional role playing adventure.
3x Rune Snag
2x Champion of the Parrish
2x Delver of Secrets
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Coral Helm Guy
1x New manowar guy
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Isamaru
1x wall of omens
1x Remand
1x Cancel
1x bribery
1x Ancestral Visions
1x Oblivion ring
1x Jace the new guy
1x some kinda ponder
1x Adarkar Wastes
2x hallowed fountain
1x flooded strand
1x SHELL DOXXX
Can't really remember what else.
Bryan Tran is one of Denix's pals that we've really come to know through boardgame night and the occasional role playing adventure.
Also RE: Aggro Night's Whisper
If my late game / mid game probably involves me drawing a lot of dinky burn spells or 2/2 for 1cc one at a time my plan is probably to keep throwing crap at you and overwhelm you. If I'm sorta sitting in that seat I don't mind paying 2 to draw 2 cards when I'm probably already on a life lead.
I think of it like that and I've been there before and loved it. Just think affinity and delver decks guyz
If my late game / mid game probably involves me drawing a lot of dinky burn spells or 2/2 for 1cc one at a time my plan is probably to keep throwing crap at you and overwhelm you. If I'm sorta sitting in that seat I don't mind paying 2 to draw 2 cards when I'm probably already on a life lead.
I think of it like that and I've been there before and loved it. Just think affinity and delver decks guyz
In the deck I linked above, though, I wouldn't cut any of the creatures or spells for a draw two. The entire deck is on Plan A, which is Crack Skulls. I guess that's where we fall on different sides on the divide. What would you remove for the Night's Whisper?
In fairness, I suppose I might side it in in an attrition matchup, where I expected a lot of removal, and needed to make up for the card disadvantage. I don't think I would maindeck it, though.
Also, even if I personally wouldn't use it in aggro, the fact that other people would makes me lean towards including it, because it's the kind of card that has the potential to go across archetypes. It'll be in for the next draft!
In fairness, I suppose I might side it in in an attrition matchup, where I expected a lot of removal, and needed to make up for the card disadvantage. I don't think I would maindeck it, though.
Also, even if I personally wouldn't use it in aggro, the fact that other people would makes me lean towards including it, because it's the kind of card that has the potential to go across archetypes. It'll be in for the next draft!
I'm not sure which deck you're talking about sadly. I'm not always using all of my mana as an aggro deck, 2 is well within the range and I tend to run out of spells quickly.
It's nice to see more cards, at a low impact, when your deck is built around the idea of consistency, inevitability and speed. Are all your spells good for 2 or more damage? Do they stick around for very long? If not then why yes I'd like to roll the dice on seeing two more cards please.
If you don't ever find yourself in those situations where you are really excited to see the top 3 cards of your deck in a turn or 4 over the next two turns then yeah I guess it isn't the card for you.
And yeah, I do tend to like that card because it fits into a million decks kinda seamlessly, but that's my opinion. You guys are a good counterpoint to that. Clearly this is a card people don't know what to do with so it looks like a crappy pick.
It's nice to see more cards, at a low impact, when your deck is built around the idea of consistency, inevitability and speed. Are all your spells good for 2 or more damage? Do they stick around for very long? If not then why yes I'd like to roll the dice on seeing two more cards please.
If you don't ever find yourself in those situations where you are really excited to see the top 3 cards of your deck in a turn or 4 over the next two turns then yeah I guess it isn't the card for you.
And yeah, I do tend to like that card because it fits into a million decks kinda seamlessly, but that's my opinion. You guys are a good counterpoint to that. Clearly this is a card people don't know what to do with so it looks like a crappy pick.
It's this red/black aggro deck, which took down the draft last time we had one:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/decks-that-have-3-0d-your-cube.47/page-2#post-1074
On a completely unrelated note, I was amused at how my group's supposedly most experienced player, himself the owner of a powered cube, was completely oblivious to the fact that my cube has a Modern constraint, until someone pointed out this tidbit in the middle of the third pack. Heyo!
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/decks-that-have-3-0d-your-cube.47/page-2#post-1074
On a completely unrelated note, I was amused at how my group's supposedly most experienced player, himself the owner of a powered cube, was completely oblivious to the fact that my cube has a Modern constraint, until someone pointed out this tidbit in the middle of the third pack. Heyo!
Chris Taylor
Contributor
It slips by you sometimes, since so many good cards are new anyways.
Makes me sad you get AEther adept instead of man-'o-war though
Makes me sad you get AEther adept instead of man-'o-war though
You run some non-modern cards though... I could see being oblivious. Maybe.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
You mean the allied fetchlands?
Bingo.
I've got five of those in a 405 card cube. They're Modern-bordered, even!
I'll bet it was the Mirage Stone Rain that threw him off. Or Finkel. Doesn't staring at Finkel throw everyone off?
I'll bet it was the Mirage Stone Rain that threw him off. Or Finkel. Doesn't staring at Finkel throw everyone off?
CML
Contributor
Night's Whisper is a sweet one, I dunno what all the 'not an aggro card' talk is about with MBS standard vampires running Sign in Blood and so forth
Cutting Staggershock seems sacrilegious, like it hosed the FUCK out of aggro in Rise but that's cuz they'd spend a gazillion mana leveling a guy and hey presto huge tempo blowout and why hello it's an 8/8 for 8. in cube though eh its fine i guess, there are any number of cards that i feel hose aggro.
also as a constructed player i am skeptical of the idea that anything with red mana in the cost can ever be overpowered
Cutting Staggershock seems sacrilegious, like it hosed the FUCK out of aggro in Rise but that's cuz they'd spend a gazillion mana leveling a guy and hey presto huge tempo blowout and why hello it's an 8/8 for 8. in cube though eh its fine i guess, there are any number of cards that i feel hose aggro.
also as a constructed player i am skeptical of the idea that anything with red mana in the cost can ever be overpowered