Erik's "The cool side of Magic" cube

[Erik Twice]

Of course you are not out of place! Feel free to tinker with the cube and improve it any way you see fit! I'm flattered you like it enough to take it as a basis for one of your own.

SPELLS MATTER

I think it's more than possible to extend the archetype to all colours, like you and DBS have done in your cubes. There a couple reasons I haven't:

1) The archetype didn't extend beyond Jeskai until Strixhaven
2) Jeskai Spells Matter is already one of the most common and best archetypes in the cube
3) Most Spells Matters deck are blue decks, which is already one of the top colours in the cube
4) There are already many incentives to pick as many cheap spells as possible
5) Spell matter cards do not crossover with Survival, Pod, Artifacts, Crucible and so on.
6) It was very good stuffy in Temur colours
7) This is the most important one: I am very lazy and it's a lot of work lol

This is why I decided to leave it as a Jeskai archetype. It works, it's fun and it doesn't strike my fancy as much as other archetypes. I'm happy enough with what it does. I also find Memory Lapse frustrating, there are a lot of counterspells I would run over it.

If you want to extend the archetype, I would look into supporting Naya first, then trying other non-blue combinations. Otherwise, you'll have the same blue deck with several different splashes. Start trying Abundant Harvest, Once upon a Time, Berserk and other cheap spells. I haven't done the work here so I can't share you a list of cards beyond that!

GRAVEYARD MATTERS

I'm not the best at working with this archetype so it's a bit wonky. Thankfully, its support cards are great and it ties very well with, well, everything so it works and is fun to play despite my lack of design abilities.

The main issue I have with the archetype is the lack of payoffs in green. You have a lot of them in red, black and blue but green falls behind. This is the issue with Mongrel and its less cool clone: They are enablers, not payoffs. There's three good payoffs and four middling ones:





You can add Wheel of Fortune without problem. I just figured Magus of the Wheel was enough despite running both being a very good option. If you want to try the Mongrels, try both.

Honored Hydra and Champion of Wits are good cards, they are just middling and pretty good-stuffy. I cut Honored Hydra a while ago and never missed it. I think the same could happen with Champion of Wits. The fact is, you have more cards that you know what to do with and neither is that exciting.

STORM

When I first tried storm, I did tun into several drafts in which I had 21 or 22 cards. It should be easier to build a working deck now but the possibility of failure and the fact that I run some good disruption showed me it was very risky. I'm not sure what's the smallest size for a storm deck, though, it might be possible to have it in very few cards.

 

[Nanonox]

There's three good payoffs and four middling ones:

From your cube, I would add these cards to the good/very good payoffs



They also almost singlehandedly build a RG discard aggro deck with these payoffs



Which you can then support more or less with stuff like Hooting Mandrils, Become Immense, Fiend Artisan, Anger, Avacyn's Judgment and such.

They are by no means necessary of course, just personal preference.

This is why I decided to leave it as a Jeskai archetype. It works, it's fun and it doesn't strike my fancy as much as other archetypes. I'm happy enough with what it does. I also find Memory Lapse frustrating, there are a lot of counterspells I would run over it.

If you want to extend the archetype, I would look into supporting Naya first, then trying other non-blue combinations. Otherwise, you'll have the same blue deck with several different splashes. Start trying Abundant Harvest, Once upon a Time, Berserk and other cheap spells. I haven't done the work here so I can't share you a list of cards beyond that!

Thanks for the explanation and direction!

onored Hydra and Champion of Wits are good cards, they are just middling and pretty good-stuffy. I cut Honored Hydra a while ago and never missed it. I think the same could happen with Champion of Wits. The fact is, you have more cards that you know what to do with and neither is that exciting.

I think that is something I often overlook from past cube experiences, pretty good-stuffy cards don't necessarily need to be included!

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[Erik Twice]

I think that is something I often overlook from past cube experiences, pretty good-stuffy cards don't necessarily need to be included!

Ultimately, there only so many slots in the cube. So any card that is good enough to see play but that doesn't promote any interesting archetypes or fun play patterns is a bit of a waste.

I was mostly talking about purely green payoffs. I should have counted Vengevine, but I would love one more spell in that category. Still, I've been thinking about some changes.

>
>
>
>
>


What about trying to support storm like this?

>
>

 

[inscho]

I have a version of storm filed away in the back of my mind based around Brain Freeze + Underworld Breach

Brain Freeze is one of the more interesting storm wincons to me as it can also assist with a Thassa's Oracle win. I like that it can both be a set up piece with Underworld Breach/Yawgmoth's Will and be your win condition upon the recast.

This also overlaps with the aggressive self-mill gro deck that is a little too good for my current high test using some combination of the below cards:



It's feels almost like storm, but wins by turning creatures sideways. Throw this deck-chewing package in with Thassa's Oracle, and you can achieve some crazy quick self-mill wins.

It's unfortunate that I haven't found a way to successfully scale Selesnya and Azorius up in power, because I'd snap include this archetype if I could figure it out. Both guilds require too many goodstuff cards to compete which leads to a drop in archetype complexity and intrigue for me.

 

[Erik Twice]

I'm looking for small piles that will win you the game with Gifts or Doomsday. I know there are a lot of them but I don't really know any. For example, my intuition tells me there's a game-winning combo with some of the following:



I'm so going to look into your high power list Inscho. Must keep stealing ideas for my cube =p

 

[sigh]

If you haven't read this already, safra wrote this pretty in-depth article-post about Doomsday here: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/please-critique-my-first-doomsday-article.1310/

In general, safra is/was (don't know if you are still around on here safra) the resident doomsday aficionado and has many posts on the forum that discuss or touch on it.

 

[Erik Twice]

I have read it! In fact, I've read all that has ever been said about Doomsday in this forum and a good other places. The issue is that 95% of information is about pairing with Laboratory Maniac or Thassa's Oracle. Which is fine, but a 2-card combo is not where I want things to be.

Either way, I've been drafting some tests decks and pondering about the issue and I'm not going to introduce Storm to my cube, at least for now. It is possible and I think a better cube designer could make it. However, I'm not that designer and it would require much larger changes that I'm willing to make. It would also move the cube away from the grindy, recursive plays I like in exchange of more explosive, spell-based stuff.

Looking at my tests, I think it can work, but I end up wheeling the same pieces, which put me into the same deck every time. There must be alternatives, which means other decks, probably combo as well, that can be pivoted from some of the key picks. For example, there are some Legacy decks built around Lion's Eye Diamond that are not storm, like:







Having those decks into the cube would help make Storm a real archetype and less of a drafting combo that you either get or you don't.

The thing is, even just a handful of cards makes a huge difference. It's not that you need moxen and channel to support Storm, per se, it's that they have cards that can help the archetype that you wouldn't run anywhere else. You can play Storm with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as a win condition. You can use Show and Tell to put Dream Halls into play. You have Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, Grim Monolith, Talismans and Signets. You can cheat with Griselbrand or put Spellseeker to use. Even if it's just 5, 10 cards, the difference is massive.

Still, I've noticed that my test builds would just fold to any sort of disruption. In fact, most storm decks in cubes fold to a well-timed counterspell. You can see it if you watch Caleb or LSV draft storm, there are tons of moments where the difference between winning and losing is "did my opponent draw a counter?". So, again, you need to build the archetype around that possibility. That's a lot of work and I'm not really interested in doing that right now.

Perhaps for the next revision I'll try.

 

[astraedm]

i have tried so, so much to finagle a storm archetype that feels like storm without having a bunch of cards that are useless in other decks, and it is oddly cathartic to watch someone at a similar power level go through the same process.

i think we got similar results, those being that it's possible with a relatively small and inoffensive group of cards, but you basically either wheel the same deck or your draft doesn't function, with very little variation in how you're doing your combo, which feels about as counterintuitive to the feeling of playing cube storm as you can get.

the closest i got to something that played out in a variety of ways was building around mana doubling permanents and untappers, something like...



with a suite of land enchants and untap elves, etc. it could audible into a ramp deck if the combo didn't come together, but it never really came together in a way i was satisfied with.

 

[Erik Twice]

Yeah, I think that if you had three supported combo decks using most of the same pieces, it could work. But that's a lot of effort and it leads to even more implications down the line. I also don't think adding spell-based combo to my cube would work. It really is based around gradual advantage engines and grinding value, you are going to look dumb trying to blink your own creatures or recurring them in an Aristocrats shell when people are running around with Brain Freeze.

Either way, my current goal is to finish this iteration of the cube by, say, February. The reason is that I'm very busy right now. I have a bunch of games lined up at the club, I'm getting into Flesh and Blood and there are a lot of boardgames I need to play for my reviews. Hence, I doubt I will play the cube in quite a while. I even have to play Gaslands first, so I have time.

I think I'll take the time to round out a few edges and then I might think about another version of the cube that is more spells-based to accomodate storm or combo or what have you. Or not, who knows!

 

[Erik Twice]

Since my goal is to finish the current iteration of the cube, I'm going to add a few cards to round things out:



Yawgmoth may be overkill, but I don't know what else to add and it's a fun card.

--
I want to say, I'm very proud of my small tribal packages. They introduce incentives in draft similar to those of drafting additional artifacts, spells or snow-themed cards. It's not perfect, but I think it adds more to my cube that it takes. First, there are these four cards:



Supporting humans is very simple because a disproportionate amount of cards are. Champion is an interesting one-drop and Thalia's Liutenant is not only fun as well, but it has blink synergies. Both take very little space but make all Wx decks more interesting.

Gravecrawler is not truly a tribal card, as it will almost inevitably be paired with another zombie if you care about the archetype. Still, I like seeing and counting how many zombies I have and seeing if I can support Gravecrawler that way or not.

Heirloom Blade is an interesting case. On one hand, the card is just brutally good. You can jam it in any deck and every creature will have targets. Practically all creatures have two types so it's inevitable. But pushing certain combinations is interesting. For example, it does make Gravecrawler better if you can sacrifice it and draw another zombie. And some are rather curious. For example, one of the tokens from Young Pyromancer can get you a Shriekmaw.



--

Now, I've been thinking about pushing these mini-tribal themes a bit further with cards like:



Now there are a couple issues with this. The first is that every card you add that supports a tribe is one fewer card that supports another. It's not an issue of drafting on rails, you can solve that, the issue is that you don't get a lot of cards that are zombies AND humans AND wizards. And, more importantly, you don't get a lot of cards that do that, have the right effects for Harmonic Prodigy and so on. The card pool is small. Now, there are a couple cards that fit all those roles:



Look at Jadar. He's a human wizard that creates zombies as sacrifice fodder. How can you not love that? Still, slots are tight and you can't easily replace an elemental with a human that fits the same slot. Harmonic Prodigy is a luxury and I'm not sure I love its play patterns. Think about how brutal this is:



On the other hand, I just drafted this sweet deck:



I think the real question is: How much am I willing to worsen some slots in order to support these synergies? On one hand, I think this would be painful and rather clever:

->
->

Double ignore, doble noble hierarch. Weird, but it should work! However, I don't like these as much:

->
->

I don't know, am I doing something dumb? Or do you think I'm doing something cool? Let me know, please!

 

[Erik Twice]

Talking about tribal, I don't think this card really works:



I feel I end up cutting her or that I run her in shells with so few creatures she would get blow up the moment she got into play.

 

[Nanonox]

I don't know, am I doing something dumb? Or do you think I'm doing something cool? Let me know, please!

The fact that a single card unlocks so many potentially unique interactions is something really cool in my eyes and the deck you posted is a great example.
I like the cuts you are making, but not the Woodfall Primus one. I don't think the deck with the Prodigy will be the same deck playing the Primus. It could come up, but it's already a narrow card, I wouldn't go overboard to support a subset of a small archetype.

Talking about Jolrael and tribal made me think of a deck Drawbacks drafted from my cube that was funny: cat tribal
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/6138b6a202fde81040a5b46f

Jolrael, Esika's Chariot and Felidar Retreat

But on a more serious note, I see Jolrael as a stand alone threat for tempo type decks with a lot of cantrips. She is so cheap you can just cast her + 1 mana cantrip to get value. She is narrow in the color combinations that can play her, but unique enough that I still like her.

 

[Erik Twice]

The issue with Jolrael is that she keeps reading better than she actually is. Look at the deck you posted, there are only four cards that trigger Jolrael and one of them is a land.

I've often found myself I just didn't have enough cards in my deck to support her, even if I tried. I soften find Young Pyromancer a bit narrow because it only says "instant and sorceries" instead of "noncreature". There are far fewer cards that trigger a second draw than there are instant or sorceries and even by putting her in a Temur slot, I've found her lacking.

The other issue is that her body is very poor. If she were a 2/1 or a 2/2, she could happily attack or trade. If you could trigger her once, then she would be two 2/2s for two mana, which is very good. But as a 1/2 her board presence is irrelevant, forcing you to trigger her at least twice. Which again, makes things harder. There are too many games in which I draw cards in the wrong order or she gets blown up on ETB. Her second ability is also worded in such a way that it doesn't work too often, either.

I don't know, even slotting her into Gruul I've been dissapointed by her. And I tried to play her on Magic Arena and I never made her work. I don't know, how are you finding it?

And is it really not that weird to run 2 Noble Hierarchs and 2 Ignoble Hierarchs? Is my logic sound or am I dumb?

 

[sigh]

I don't run Jolrael for much the same reasons as listed above. A green card that finds almost no support within green itself. More like a Temur card in disguise. From what I see, you are only running 7-ish cards I'd consider a cantrip, so it's not super easy to stock up a deck on those (especially considering how high in demand cantrips are). Also only seeing 7 cards with cycling (and across all the colors) and only 5 cards that investigate. Getting that density of incidental sencond-draws just doesn't look like it's very easy in your format, at elast to the level to make Jolrael pop off.

I think Tarmogoyf is just as effective for assisting spells strategies, is easier to read, more iconic, etc.

 

[Nanonox]

I don't know, even slotting her into Gruul I've been dissapointed by her. And I tried to play her on Magic Arena and I never made her work. I don't know, how are you finding it?

I think my cube is built in a way that it actually works well. I doubled up on a lot of card draw that Green decks can use to trigger Jolrael:

Explore
Manamorphose
Gitaxian Probe
Mishra's Bauble
Chromatic Star

That's excluding cards from other colors. But if she doesn't work for you, easy cut.

Look at the deck you posted, there are only four cards that trigger Jolrael and one of them is a land.

That was more of a meme than an actual deck where she shines, but you are right.

And is it really not that weird to run 2 Noble Hierarchs and 2 Ignoble Hierarchs? Is my logic sound or am I dumb?

I find the Hierarchs more interesting than regular mana dorks like the Elf, but maybe not more than the BoP. Maybe keep the Ignoble who triggers off of the Prodigy?

 

[Erik Twice]

Ok, I'm going to start with these two very small changes:

->
->

And then see what more I can change.

 

[Erik Twice]

Question. Do I need two or all three of these cards?



I'm thinking the last one might not actually be necessary

 

[sigh]

If you are going to choose 2, drop the crucible IMO. Ramunap fits in more "mild" lands strategies, and fits in with creature synergies. If you are going to go deep on lands stuff, then the crucible can come in as a third piece.

 

[Zoss]

I think if your question is one of redundancy/sufficient density, then you might want to double up on the ones you like best rather than going for variety. Rather, I think the question to ask is how easily you want these strategies to be disrupted. I personally like the Excavator and LftL, as Crucible is very one-note, but doubling up on either would be great if you're worried about volume.

 

[Erik Twice]

Yes, the question is: Do I need to spend three slots on this kind of effects? Or is two enough for my cube size? I like the variety, for me the question is if I really need the slots. Because a green 3 is a very contested space, for example.

 

[Nanonox]

If you are going to choose 2, drop the crucible IMO. Ramunap fits in more "mild" lands strategies, and fits in with creature synergies. If you are going to go deep on lands stuff, then the crucible can come in as a third piece.

I am usually with you on most topics, but not on this one. Crucible being colorless opens the door to more strategies being viable. Maybe you have a Red deck with Devastating Dreams + Wildfire. In that case, not being locked into a RG deck is a good thing IMO.

Question. Do I need two or all three of these cards?

I would tend to go towards all 3. Reason being you have aforementioned Wildfire deck. You have Stax decks. You have self-mill decks. You have lands decks. All of those would be happy with land recursion.
Also, what are you planning on replacing them with?

I think if your question is one of redundancy/sufficient density, then you might want to double up on the ones you like best rather than going for variety.

That could be a cool option to double up on Life from the Loam seeing that it is both a self-mill enabler, a repeatable sorcery and a GY payoff.

 

[dbs]

I think you want to envision the type of decks that would be playing these cards. Then you can ask: how many copies of this effect would these decks need to function? Fortunately, I think the answer is usually "not many." Life from the Loam works great as a 1-of in a green midrange deck that either has some land synergies (Field of the Dead, Urza's Saga, Fetchlands) or graveyard synergies (Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath). Not drawing LftL is perfectly fine (it's a slow card), but it's a powerful engine when you do.

Likewise, Ramunap can be a 3 drop creature in a green midrange deck that replays a fetch. Maybe sometimes you draw it alongside Wasteland/Cataclysm and really break the symmetry. But your deck does not depend on Ramunap to function and Ramunap is a value creature in the base case. Crucible is more specialized because it doesn't slot effortlessly into a midrange deck. But again, you shouldn't be in a scenario where you need to draw Crucible for your e.g. Wildfire deck to function. It's all upside when you do.

So (1) lands go to the graveyard either naturally or as part of your gameplan, and (2) your deck functions fine if you can't bring those lands back. In that case, how many slots to dedicate should be up to your preference. I'm sure this is oversimplifying things (draft dynamics of seeing one of these cards in pack 1 and assumptions about how much "the lands deck" is supported) but it should be hard to go wrong.

 

[sigh]

Crucible is colorless, but also generally worse than the excavator. Lots of drafters won't go for it nearly as quickly. If there's an archetype going for it anyways, I'm on team all-3 regardless, and as mentioned on team 2 LftL + 1 of each of the others.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I've really soured on Crucible. Being colourless gives it this allure of being playable anywhere but in practice even decks that should want it rarely do. In theory it goes in your Stax or Wildfire deck but if it only really pairs with those cards you now have a mostly dead draw that only works when your deck is already doing its thing. In a normal deck that has e.g. 2 fetchlands, that's not enough to justify Crucible and even that interaction is a slow, gradual form of card advantage (you've built your own more conditional Phyrexian Arena, a card power crept out of most Cubes ages ago).

I don't like Excavator that much easier but the base rate of being a creature is much better and lets it synergize with the 'creature or land' searchers in green (OUAT, Winding Way, Grapple the Past/Pulse of Murasa). The creature/land crossover in Gx (normally GW) is something my lands deck really leans on and I haven't seen a reliable template other than that.

 

[Zoss]

The colorless on Crucible doesn't do much for me either because I've yet to see a non-Green deck use it super well. Maybe it's because I don't run MLD, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a Wildfire deck that isn't at least RGx, and anything with Armageddon is almost certainly too aggro for a 3-drop that really does nothing for their gameplan.