"Fast" multiplayer cube
- Thread starter Nanonox
- Start date
That's a great point with the +1/+1 counters, but I've found that it comes up a bit short as a theme at my power level (could work as a subtheme though if I wanted to push that).
With Jolrael in green, I'm thinking about supporting her at least a little. Right now I have three 2CMC sorceries that care about the GY in some way.
I am thinking I could cut one and add
as a decent cantrip. The cut would probably be Winding Way.
I've also been eyeing
I really like how it can combine to form some crazy turns with
I could even see myself adding
Bolas's Citadel, Meloku, the Clouded Mirror, Omnath, Locus of Creation to further support the card.
I think the problem is that it is just too narrow. Some decks will use it to great effect, but I'm not sure it enables anything that doesn't exist already with more flexible cards.
With Jolrael in green, I'm thinking about supporting her at least a little. Right now I have three 2CMC sorceries that care about the GY in some way.
I am thinking I could cut one and add
as a decent cantrip. The cut would probably be Winding Way.
I've also been eyeing
I really like how it can combine to form some crazy turns with
I could even see myself adding
Bolas's Citadel, Meloku, the Clouded Mirror, Omnath, Locus of Creation to further support the card.
I think the problem is that it is just too narrow. Some decks will use it to great effect, but I'm not sure it enables anything that doesn't exist already with more flexible cards.
I really like Fastbond, it adds some explosiveness to green that isn’t about turning creatures sideways. I always really liked being able to use wheel effect in a turbo ramp deck...gruul usually wants a wheel effect for Aggro and first picking wheel of fortune and then being able to pivot it from Aggro to Combo/ramp was an option I enjoyed
I’ve run exploration in its place at times when I was trying to tone down the combo in my cube, and like it fine as well. Both are also good with:
and escape the wilds effects
Fastbond also combos with bouncelands bouncing themselves to get multiple landfall triggers in a turn.
I’ve run exploration in its place at times when I was trying to tone down the combo in my cube, and like it fine as well. Both are also good with:
and escape the wilds effects
Fastbond also combos with bouncelands bouncing themselves to get multiple landfall triggers in a turn.
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Funny that Inscho and dbs would like the Fastbond post because I recall drafting both cubes with it and being impressed with how well it was supported. I am also finding myself drawn more to the combo side of both cubes.
What I like in dbs's is that there is a huge infrastructure of fast mana and cantrips and that you can mix and match them with payoffs for some crazy engines.
What I like about Inscho's is the layering of archetypes through card precise card choices.
Both lend themselves to an explorative format with a potential for crazy turns.
With the release of Strixhaven, I realized that the crazy turn potential is something I am interested in, but I want to support it in a way my drafters can understand. Both formats are a little too complex for my playgroup, so I need to rely more on staples with choice payoffs.
So, with explosiveness as a newfound goal of mine, here are some cards from Strixhaven and elsewhere that I should probably reconsider. I remember hearing someone say that in order to be lucky, you have to create moments that allow you to be in a position to be lucky. Same thing here. If you want explosiveness, you have to include the tools to put yourself in that position.
The Apprentice ties Magecraft further in green and makes sense with my decision to have global effects prioritzed on cheap creatures (to incentivize players to draft a lower curve).
I asked about Plumb the Forbidden in the Discord during spoiler season and people said that Village Rites is probably better on average. I think that it's true in most cubes, but the floor on Plumb is higher and the ceiling is too. It ties spells and sacrifice together just like Rites, but in a more powerful way. I have other magecraft cards that will care about the copies on the stack, so I think it makes sense to add this cheap draw spell.
The saga is a favorite of mine and has been played by some in my group too. It's a bit expensive to take a turn off to start the engine, but with more cantrips and payoffs for casting spells, this suddenly makes sense to include again.
I am not sure where I am going with these design choices, as I am kind of winging them at the moment. I will have to sit down at some point and evaluate if I am actually accomplishing my goals. But for now, the creativity is taking over, so I am enjoying the ride
What I like in dbs's is that there is a huge infrastructure of fast mana and cantrips and that you can mix and match them with payoffs for some crazy engines.
What I like about Inscho's is the layering of archetypes through card precise card choices.
Both lend themselves to an explorative format with a potential for crazy turns.
With the release of Strixhaven, I realized that the crazy turn potential is something I am interested in, but I want to support it in a way my drafters can understand. Both formats are a little too complex for my playgroup, so I need to rely more on staples with choice payoffs.
I really like this, as I hadn't considered the diversity it adds to Green.
So, with explosiveness as a newfound goal of mine, here are some cards from Strixhaven and elsewhere that I should probably reconsider. I remember hearing someone say that in order to be lucky, you have to create moments that allow you to be in a position to be lucky. Same thing here. If you want explosiveness, you have to include the tools to put yourself in that position.
The Apprentice ties Magecraft further in green and makes sense with my decision to have global effects prioritzed on cheap creatures (to incentivize players to draft a lower curve).
I asked about Plumb the Forbidden in the Discord during spoiler season and people said that Village Rites is probably better on average. I think that it's true in most cubes, but the floor on Plumb is higher and the ceiling is too. It ties spells and sacrifice together just like Rites, but in a more powerful way. I have other magecraft cards that will care about the copies on the stack, so I think it makes sense to add this cheap draw spell.
The saga is a favorite of mine and has been played by some in my group too. It's a bit expensive to take a turn off to start the engine, but with more cantrips and payoffs for casting spells, this suddenly makes sense to include again.
I am not sure where I am going with these design choices, as I am kind of winging them at the moment. I will have to sit down at some point and evaluate if I am actually accomplishing my goals. But for now, the creativity is taking over, so I am enjoying the ride
The Mirari Conjecture is such a blast. I'm a big fan of that one...I really had some fun decks in Azorius prowess tokens based around:
It's fun. It's easy to wrap your head around.
The rebound spells like Staggershock are really cool with conjecture as well. You can time the rebound cast to coincide with the final stage on conjecture without tying up tons of mana. Similarly with screech you can flashback on the final stage without spending mana.
It's fun. It's easy to wrap your head around.
The rebound spells like Staggershock are really cool with conjecture as well. You can time the rebound cast to coincide with the final stage on conjecture without tying up tons of mana. Similarly with screech you can flashback on the final stage without spending mana.
Now that we are playing with 5 players on a more regular basis, I decided to increase my cube size to make it easy to draft.
6 packs of 15 cards, pick one, burn one. The whole cube gets drafted and you end up with 48 cards. Good enough!
I cut the 5 Prismatic Vistas in favor of a second set of fetches. I decided to add some more generically good cards as well as support for a few more decks. Some new build arounds are
I was able to draft an Omnath deck already and it looks fun! Lots of landfall payoffs and triggers, with some GY synergies. The mana is a little rough because I didn't get the best mix of fethes and duals.
I also want to share a really cool GW tokens deck that I've never seen before
There is a spells matter core of Leonin Lightscribe, Monastery Mentor, Clarion Spirit and Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse. They are powered by 6 amazing cantrips. With planeswalkers, the Monarch and Tireless Tracker there is late game potential. They conveniently trigger Jolrael as well.
There is the basis of an artifact theme with clues, Chromatic Stars, Esika's Chariot with Karn, Scion of Urza being the only real payoff. I'm looking forward for more artifacts matter cards in these colors in the future.
This deck really makes me consider Lovestruck Beast, as a spell, token maker and beatstick. If more decks like this pops up, it will likely be added.
I updated the last page with working cube decks if you want to check out the other spells matter decks that popped up. Really enjoy this package so far!
6 packs of 15 cards, pick one, burn one. The whole cube gets drafted and you end up with 48 cards. Good enough!
I cut the 5 Prismatic Vistas in favor of a second set of fetches. I decided to add some more generically good cards as well as support for a few more decks. Some new build arounds are
I was able to draft an Omnath deck already and it looks fun! Lots of landfall payoffs and triggers, with some GY synergies. The mana is a little rough because I didn't get the best mix of fethes and duals.
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I also want to share a really cool GW tokens deck that I've never seen before
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There is a spells matter core of Leonin Lightscribe, Monastery Mentor, Clarion Spirit and Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse. They are powered by 6 amazing cantrips. With planeswalkers, the Monarch and Tireless Tracker there is late game potential. They conveniently trigger Jolrael as well.
There is the basis of an artifact theme with clues, Chromatic Stars, Esika's Chariot with Karn, Scion of Urza being the only real payoff. I'm looking forward for more artifacts matter cards in these colors in the future.
This deck really makes me consider Lovestruck Beast, as a spell, token maker and beatstick. If more decks like this pops up, it will likely be added.
I updated the last page with working cube decks if you want to check out the other spells matter decks that popped up. Really enjoy this package so far!
Supporting stormless storm
So I quite like how the cantrips and Strixhaven cards are playing a big role in my cube right now. However, I did notice that Blue and Red the traditional spellsmatter colors are kind of left out right now. I will be adding a couple of payoffs to try and boost them:
I've always found that I could use some recursion in my UR decks (a problem solved by splashing Green or Black usually), so having Breach is important. Storm on the other hand I am less sure of. I've had it before in the cube, but the support wasn't even remotely as good as it is now. Worth testing at least.
To add to the fun, I am considering the following enablers with a series of cuts:
As well as doubling up on both Manamorphose and Frantic Search (thanks dbs for the inspiration!).
I'd love your opinions on these as I feel I may be going off the deep end!
Cut
Dictate of Helios: Card is too expensive for what I am doing now, even if the impact is strong. Leonin Lightscribe replaced this for me.
In
Enlightened Tutor: White's contribution to artifact and storm decks are less than what I would like and this tutor allows for some crossover with both.
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Cut
Commit // Memory: Commit has always been a little overpriced for a temporary solution, but it is very versatile. The draw 7 mode is a nice way to recycle your deck when you self-mill hard, but 6 mana for the effect means it's dangerous since your opponents get their hands before you.
In
Timetwister: 3 mana means this can be played in a faster deck looking to refill it's hand. Also, no exile means you can potentially Regrowth it down the line.
or
Time Spiral: Another draw 7, but this one gives you first crack with a new hand. Untapping your lands gives this a higher upside even if the floor is lower (6 mana is a lot).
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Cut
Man-O'-War: Pretty mediocre creature for my format, it was there for blink shenanigans, but I already have Venser, Shaper Savant and Riftwing Cloudskate that are more versatile.
In
Mystical Tutor: Cheap way to get some of the better payoffs and enablers for all sorts of blue decks.
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Cut
Scholar of the Lost Trove: This sphinx has a lot of synergy with what blue wants to do (artifacts, spells, GY, blink), but I think it might be just too expensive.
In
Ancestral Visions: I really don't love this card, but my players play it often in other cubes. My biggest gripe is that past the early turns it's a horrendous top deck. However, it's cheap and can set up future turns nicely.
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Cut
Nullpriest of Oblivion: Not a bad 2 drop, but not exciting either. And if I am only casting it for 6 mana, then I'd rather have other options. I get that modality has value, but for a 5 player game, this seems too weak.
In
Dark Petition: Expensive tutor that refunds mana. Plays nicely with both Breach and Storm that I am adding, but I worry that between this, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, it's too much. I could see myself cutting DT or VT, just don't have much experience with Petition.
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Cut
Doom Whisperer: I love this card, but if I am adding Griselbrand, this feels like a watered down version of it.
In
Griselbrand: Here I think I am going overboard. The goal of adding Griselbrand is to add a potential reanimation suite to the spells deck, but I worry it will just be used in a control deck or something and take over the game. I would also look into adding Sneak Attack if the demon gets in.
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Cut
??
In
Magus of the Wheel: The upside of this one is that you get to wheel end of turn and untap with a new hand. The body isn't embarrassing either. Just not sure it's really needed
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Cut
Mass Mutiny: I love how threaten effects can blow up a stalemate or be used with sacrifice outlets. However, this one isn't great as 5 mana is pretty expensive. That being said, I don't want to run something like Molten Primordial that is too easy to blink/recur and takes over a game. So this slot is expendable.
In
Jeska's Will: Ritual effect or card draw? Both are good options, I just dislike the commander text on it. This could also be Birgi, God of Storytelling, but that card is too much in terms of complexity (wordy, irrelevant boast ability, double sided).
Also considering cutting Explore for a second Manamorphose (so as to give red more cantrips) and also cutting Thirst for Knowledge for a second Frantic Search (free spell that digs towards your next play).
So there it is. A bunch of top of deck tutors, some wheel effects and some draw. All generally good stuff that I know will be played, but might help propel the "combo" decks.
Once again any thoughts, insights or critics more than welcome!
So I quite like how the cantrips and Strixhaven cards are playing a big role in my cube right now. However, I did notice that Blue and Red the traditional spellsmatter colors are kind of left out right now. I will be adding a couple of payoffs to try and boost them:
I've always found that I could use some recursion in my UR decks (a problem solved by splashing Green or Black usually), so having Breach is important. Storm on the other hand I am less sure of. I've had it before in the cube, but the support wasn't even remotely as good as it is now. Worth testing at least.
To add to the fun, I am considering the following enablers with a series of cuts:
As well as doubling up on both Manamorphose and Frantic Search (thanks dbs for the inspiration!).
I'd love your opinions on these as I feel I may be going off the deep end!
Cut
Dictate of Helios: Card is too expensive for what I am doing now, even if the impact is strong. Leonin Lightscribe replaced this for me.
In
Enlightened Tutor: White's contribution to artifact and storm decks are less than what I would like and this tutor allows for some crossover with both.
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Cut
Commit // Memory: Commit has always been a little overpriced for a temporary solution, but it is very versatile. The draw 7 mode is a nice way to recycle your deck when you self-mill hard, but 6 mana for the effect means it's dangerous since your opponents get their hands before you.
In
Timetwister: 3 mana means this can be played in a faster deck looking to refill it's hand. Also, no exile means you can potentially Regrowth it down the line.
or
Time Spiral: Another draw 7, but this one gives you first crack with a new hand. Untapping your lands gives this a higher upside even if the floor is lower (6 mana is a lot).
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Cut
Man-O'-War: Pretty mediocre creature for my format, it was there for blink shenanigans, but I already have Venser, Shaper Savant and Riftwing Cloudskate that are more versatile.
In
Mystical Tutor: Cheap way to get some of the better payoffs and enablers for all sorts of blue decks.
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Cut
Scholar of the Lost Trove: This sphinx has a lot of synergy with what blue wants to do (artifacts, spells, GY, blink), but I think it might be just too expensive.
In
Ancestral Visions: I really don't love this card, but my players play it often in other cubes. My biggest gripe is that past the early turns it's a horrendous top deck. However, it's cheap and can set up future turns nicely.
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Cut
Nullpriest of Oblivion: Not a bad 2 drop, but not exciting either. And if I am only casting it for 6 mana, then I'd rather have other options. I get that modality has value, but for a 5 player game, this seems too weak.
In
Dark Petition: Expensive tutor that refunds mana. Plays nicely with both Breach and Storm that I am adding, but I worry that between this, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, it's too much. I could see myself cutting DT or VT, just don't have much experience with Petition.
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Cut
Doom Whisperer: I love this card, but if I am adding Griselbrand, this feels like a watered down version of it.
In
Griselbrand: Here I think I am going overboard. The goal of adding Griselbrand is to add a potential reanimation suite to the spells deck, but I worry it will just be used in a control deck or something and take over the game. I would also look into adding Sneak Attack if the demon gets in.
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Cut
??
In
Magus of the Wheel: The upside of this one is that you get to wheel end of turn and untap with a new hand. The body isn't embarrassing either. Just not sure it's really needed
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Cut
Mass Mutiny: I love how threaten effects can blow up a stalemate or be used with sacrifice outlets. However, this one isn't great as 5 mana is pretty expensive. That being said, I don't want to run something like Molten Primordial that is too easy to blink/recur and takes over a game. So this slot is expendable.
In
Jeska's Will: Ritual effect or card draw? Both are good options, I just dislike the commander text on it. This could also be Birgi, God of Storytelling, but that card is too much in terms of complexity (wordy, irrelevant boast ability, double sided).
Also considering cutting Explore for a second Manamorphose (so as to give red more cantrips) and also cutting Thirst for Knowledge for a second Frantic Search (free spell that digs towards your next play).
So there it is. A bunch of top of deck tutors, some wheel effects and some draw. All generally good stuff that I know will be played, but might help propel the "combo" decks.
Once again any thoughts, insights or critics more than welcome!
Right now, I have a problem with my black 6+ CMC cards. I have too many of them and I have a tough time choosing what to cut.
Here is what I have/want to run:
Safe
Onyx is a great signpost for spells matter and good on it's own.
Tasigur isn't really a 6 drop so he gets a pass
Gyruda spawns decks all by itself, is a hybrid and has a nice multiplayer component.
To many artifact cards?
Bolas's Citadel is a card with a lot of potential. Plays well with Welders/sacrifice and spells matters.
Marionette Master is a pet card, but requires a lot to function. I have drafted it and made it work, but as the curve gets lower and power creeps up, this might be too slow.
Noxious Gearhulk is a generically powerful card that I like for 2 reasons: life gain and the fact it's an artifact. This feels like the most expendable especially if I keep Citdel.
Signposts
Muldrotha is a good signpost that Sultai has a self-mill archetype. I like that it provides long term value if it sticks around and that it changes the way you draft to some degree.
Griselbrand is a reanimation target, that will sometimes get cast in a control deck. This is also very good in spell velocity deck and might tie together some hybrids like reanimation "storm" or something with Sneak Attack.
So if you had to make cuts, what would you do? I am leaning towards
Potential cuts
Marionette Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Noxious Gearhulk
Here is what I have/want to run:
Safe
Onyx is a great signpost for spells matter and good on it's own.
Tasigur isn't really a 6 drop so he gets a pass
Gyruda spawns decks all by itself, is a hybrid and has a nice multiplayer component.
To many artifact cards?
Bolas's Citadel is a card with a lot of potential. Plays well with Welders/sacrifice and spells matters.
Marionette Master is a pet card, but requires a lot to function. I have drafted it and made it work, but as the curve gets lower and power creeps up, this might be too slow.
Noxious Gearhulk is a generically powerful card that I like for 2 reasons: life gain and the fact it's an artifact. This feels like the most expendable especially if I keep Citdel.
Signposts
Muldrotha is a good signpost that Sultai has a self-mill archetype. I like that it provides long term value if it sticks around and that it changes the way you draft to some degree.
Griselbrand is a reanimation target, that will sometimes get cast in a control deck. This is also very good in spell velocity deck and might tie together some hybrids like reanimation "storm" or something with Sneak Attack.
So if you had to make cuts, what would you do? I am leaning towards
Potential cuts
Marionette Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Noxious Gearhulk
I don't really see the love for Bolas's Citadel here tbh. It seems like it would be especially bad in a multiplayer environment that doesn't have a 40 starting life. It costs a lot, and requires you to have expendable life while you are fighting off multiple opponents. You can cheat it out, but how many decks with the tools to cheat it out will be able to really take advantage of it? Seems too fringe to me, but maybe I just haven't spent enough time with your list.
Gearhulk is kind of dull, but matches up favorably with the other "titans" of the other colors. It seems like exactly what you'd want in a multiplayer context like this. I'd lean towards keeping this.
Master is probably a reasonable cut, and does stick out some at a glance. I've struggled to support it at a lower power level than your cube, and you are dealing with the pressure of multiple opponents. It's easy for me to see it being underwhelming. It also only hits one opponent unlike Syr Konrad, the Grim.
Muldrotha feels a little slow and EDH-y to me. I could see it being a cut as well.
Gearhulk is kind of dull, but matches up favorably with the other "titans" of the other colors. It seems like exactly what you'd want in a multiplayer context like this. I'd lean towards keeping this.
Master is probably a reasonable cut, and does stick out some at a glance. I've struggled to support it at a lower power level than your cube, and you are dealing with the pressure of multiple opponents. It's easy for me to see it being underwhelming. It also only hits one opponent unlike Syr Konrad, the Grim.
Muldrotha feels a little slow and EDH-y to me. I could see it being a cut as well.
How dare you!
See this is why you need an outside look sometimes. I really like the card and have a hard time being objective. Doesn't help that I drafted a couple decks where it seems decent:
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But I suspect you are right that the right conditions lining up is a dream more than anything else. So that's one cut!
Having Tasigur kind of negates the need for Muldrotha as a GY value payoff especially because of the color requirements.
As for Master, I guess it's time to let go. It's a narrow enough card that doesn't necessarily win the game even when things go right. I will be keeping Executioner's Capsule to go with Lurrus and Emry as well as Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast as a powerful card.
With these three cuts (Master, Muldrotha and Citadel) I feel like I could afford one more expensive Black spell. I am thinking of something with an alternate casting cost like:
Or maybe just come back to Doom Whisperer or Wretched Confluence, which are generally playable.
Thanks for the insight @inscho
Oh, you cut Doom Whisperer?
Wretched Confluence is my favorite of the Confluences. It bridges a lot of gaps. It can also selectively fuck up two opponents that are engaged in combat. It's one of those cards you are rarely unhappy to see while also being completely fair and interesting. I'm not saying to necessarily run it over the others you mentioned, but I'm a fan.
Wretched Confluence is my favorite of the Confluences. It bridges a lot of gaps. It can also selectively fuck up two opponents that are engaged in combat. It's one of those cards you are rarely unhappy to see while also being completely fair and interesting. I'm not saying to necessarily run it over the others you mentioned, but I'm a fan.
Yeah, I wanted to slot in Griselbrand and couldn't figure out which 6+ drop for it. So in the meantime I made a fast cut with the Whisperer. I do want it back in though as I've noticed that Baneslayers tend to play well in multiplayer. People don't want to waste removal on a creature that isn't actively bothering them.
Confluence plays really well for sure and my drafters appreciate it too.
Got a draft in online yesterday and it was to the surprise of nobody a good time!
The draft portion went a bit slower than normally, but that is because we are more used to playing with our friend's cube than mine. The less enfranchised players were a bit taken aback by the recent trend of very wordy cards which was also a factor.
I don't have other decklists as we will be using these decks again next time since we only did one game (playing on Tabletop Simulator is still tedious for us).
I drafted a Grixis spells matter deck with a reanimator subtheme
The game was basically people playing a bit of early defense except for Wizo who had a crazy turn 3. He played Sakura-Tribe Elder on 2, played a Lotus Cobra on turn 3 (snake tribal?!), played a fetchland and was able to land a Smothering Tithe! From then on he had near unlimited mana since no one was paying the tax. We were all getting domed by Impact Tremors from Papaya who also had a Blood Artist and a Judith, the Scourge Diva in play. I used my Wretched Confluence to clear the Cobra and the Artist on turn 4 and bring back Kess, Dissident Mage to my hand. I had a more reactive deck and was fine to wait things out.
Med was threatening lethal with Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse + Land Tax for a huge hand. Papaya cast a Rolling Earthquake to clear a crowded board and Wizo cast a Steel Hellkite with a Rhonas, the Indomitable and 12 treasure tokens. Uh oh. He went to kill Papaya, but Cast Out took out the dragon. Nic saw that Papaya was defenseless and sent a dude in for chip damage. However, Wizo was still feeling sore from that Cast Out and dumped all his mana with Rhonas on Nic's attacker. Papaya took 15 damage and lost, meaning Wizo got his dragon back.
I saw an oppening and went for the kill on Wizo. I was going to clear his blocker with a Phantasmal Image cloning Nic's Noxious Gearhulk but Wizo had Teferi's Protection! That negated the life gain I was expecting, saved the dragon and meant I was dead on his turn. My other option was Time Spiral which might have been better. My pleads of mercy were ignored and I died. However, Med who had a few dorks cast a Flickerwisp to remove Rhonas from Wizo, swung in and got him down to 1. Nic finished him off and then there was a bit of a grind between Nic and Med. Med ended up taking him out with his token strategy and a timely Swords to Plowshares to break up Nic's Volrath's Stronghold loop.
The game was fun, with some back and forth. There weren't many board stalls and players were engaged even when not their turn. We had some explosive turns and memorable moments which was great. Players noticed that they enjoyed the experience and realized during gameplay some synergies they missed during deck construction (hinting at decent replay value I hope!).
The standout cards:
A few takeaways:
- Fixing was adequate. Everyone had decent mana bases and didn't get color screwed.
- For all the Xerox aspects I try to get into the cube, we just aren't there. Ponder, Preordain and such were wheeling. This means I can diminish the amount in the cube for other cards, since if a drafter wants the cantrips, he'll get them.
- We are scrubs at heart. Everyone was at like 45+ cards (including Med with a whopping 72!!). I will probably need to start a new cube to explore wacky ideas that won't necessarily get played and reign in what I am doing in this one.
- Removal felt a tad on the low side. I am thinking of adding a few more including some on a body and maybe more exile effects to deal with Enchantments and Gods.
- I was happy that the lower CMC of the cube didn't mean that games were stalling due to lack of finishers.
- I am going to revisit a few Baneslayer type creatures. Steel Hellkite really did a number and has no ETB. I had the same impression playing my friend's cube too.
That's it for now! Pumped for the next play session to see how the game performs.
The draft portion went a bit slower than normally, but that is because we are more used to playing with our friend's cube than mine. The less enfranchised players were a bit taken aback by the recent trend of very wordy cards which was also a factor.
I don't have other decklists as we will be using these decks again next time since we only did one game (playing on Tabletop Simulator is still tedious for us).
I drafted a Grixis spells matter deck with a reanimator subtheme
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The game was basically people playing a bit of early defense except for Wizo who had a crazy turn 3. He played Sakura-Tribe Elder on 2, played a Lotus Cobra on turn 3 (snake tribal?!), played a fetchland and was able to land a Smothering Tithe! From then on he had near unlimited mana since no one was paying the tax. We were all getting domed by Impact Tremors from Papaya who also had a Blood Artist and a Judith, the Scourge Diva in play. I used my Wretched Confluence to clear the Cobra and the Artist on turn 4 and bring back Kess, Dissident Mage to my hand. I had a more reactive deck and was fine to wait things out.
Med was threatening lethal with Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse + Land Tax for a huge hand. Papaya cast a Rolling Earthquake to clear a crowded board and Wizo cast a Steel Hellkite with a Rhonas, the Indomitable and 12 treasure tokens. Uh oh. He went to kill Papaya, but Cast Out took out the dragon. Nic saw that Papaya was defenseless and sent a dude in for chip damage. However, Wizo was still feeling sore from that Cast Out and dumped all his mana with Rhonas on Nic's attacker. Papaya took 15 damage and lost, meaning Wizo got his dragon back.
I saw an oppening and went for the kill on Wizo. I was going to clear his blocker with a Phantasmal Image cloning Nic's Noxious Gearhulk but Wizo had Teferi's Protection! That negated the life gain I was expecting, saved the dragon and meant I was dead on his turn. My other option was Time Spiral which might have been better. My pleads of mercy were ignored and I died. However, Med who had a few dorks cast a Flickerwisp to remove Rhonas from Wizo, swung in and got him down to 1. Nic finished him off and then there was a bit of a grind between Nic and Med. Med ended up taking him out with his token strategy and a timely Swords to Plowshares to break up Nic's Volrath's Stronghold loop.
The game was fun, with some back and forth. There weren't many board stalls and players were engaged even when not their turn. We had some explosive turns and memorable moments which was great. Players noticed that they enjoyed the experience and realized during gameplay some synergies they missed during deck construction (hinting at decent replay value I hope!).
The standout cards:
A few takeaways:
- Fixing was adequate. Everyone had decent mana bases and didn't get color screwed.
- For all the Xerox aspects I try to get into the cube, we just aren't there. Ponder, Preordain and such were wheeling. This means I can diminish the amount in the cube for other cards, since if a drafter wants the cantrips, he'll get them.
- We are scrubs at heart. Everyone was at like 45+ cards (including Med with a whopping 72!!). I will probably need to start a new cube to explore wacky ideas that won't necessarily get played and reign in what I am doing in this one.
- Removal felt a tad on the low side. I am thinking of adding a few more including some on a body and maybe more exile effects to deal with Enchantments and Gods.
- I was happy that the lower CMC of the cube didn't mean that games were stalling due to lack of finishers.
- I am going to revisit a few Baneslayer type creatures. Steel Hellkite really did a number and has no ETB. I had the same impression playing my friend's cube too.
That's it for now! Pumped for the next play session to see how the game performs.
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With MH2 coming out, I want to try and revamp my Green section a little. There are a bunch of cool cards that fit well with the themes I am supporting, as well as having the potential for big splashy plays.
In -> Out
->
->
->
Tireless Provisioner is a second Lotus Cobra, that allows you to keep your mana for when you need it and having a bunch of artifact synergies.
Between this, Gilded Goose, Esika's Chariot, Verdurous Gearhulk and The Great Henge, Green is starting to have solid support. (I usually also cube Birthing Pod, but not while we play online).
I'm not thrilled to cut Grapple with the Past, as I think it is a sweet enabler that brings back most things a Green deck could want, but as I've tested, my playgroup tends to skip over these cards. Since I am adding an extra Regrowth effect with Timeless Witness, I can afford cutting a redundant effect. I could see cutting Satyr Wayfinder instead since they do similar things.
Timeless Witness is just a value dude, but having the Regrowth effect on a body is very strong. The extra GY synergy with Eternalize is enough for me to want to give it a shot. I also like that it has the cheaper mode as a baseline rather than having to work for it like Honored Hydra. It could be that I should keep both to achieve a critical mass of GY cards, in which case, I am unsure of what to cut!
Toski, Bearer of Secrets has played well for me in other contexts, notably the MTG Arena cube. I've been wanting an extra token payoff in Green and this definitely fits the bill. Especially in MP games, because it will encourage attacks and it will be possible to find a random opponent to hit. Nice complement to Edric, Spymaster of Trest, makes me wonder if I should add a Bident of Thassa variant to cement the token card draw theme in Simic. If I were to do that, I would probably need more evasive creatures or tokens in blue.
Surrak is there because one of my drafters like it, but I'm not a huge fan of the vulnerable haste outlet.
I've also noticed that I might have too many token payoffs in Green compared to the token makers.
This has me eyeing the following
Command, Infestation and Beast play nicely in the already existing Mardu spells tokens deck. Combined with Call of the Herd, there is the making of a broad archetype (maybe missing a few pieces, but getting there).
Command's cheap mana value and versatility are enticing, while the Beast is a huge roadblock at the very least or a strong attacker. I could cut
Pest Infestation I am less sure about. The potential is clearly there, but I am afraid of hating out the artifact deck. That being said, there are some rather powerful enchantments and artifacts outside of that deck that could be kept in check.
I have an easy cut with Managorger Hydra, I am wondering how many of these I should fit. I could also see myself cutting Knight of Autumn from Selesnya to fit Infestation, but more is probably better for this kind of removal.
How would you rate these token makers?
Any ideas/comments about the other cuts?
In -> Out
-> -> -> Tireless Provisioner is a second Lotus Cobra, that allows you to keep your mana for when you need it and having a bunch of artifact synergies.
Between this, Gilded Goose, Esika's Chariot, Verdurous Gearhulk and The Great Henge, Green is starting to have solid support. (I usually also cube Birthing Pod, but not while we play online).
I'm not thrilled to cut Grapple with the Past, as I think it is a sweet enabler that brings back most things a Green deck could want, but as I've tested, my playgroup tends to skip over these cards. Since I am adding an extra Regrowth effect with Timeless Witness, I can afford cutting a redundant effect. I could see cutting Satyr Wayfinder instead since they do similar things.
Timeless Witness is just a value dude, but having the Regrowth effect on a body is very strong. The extra GY synergy with Eternalize is enough for me to want to give it a shot. I also like that it has the cheaper mode as a baseline rather than having to work for it like Honored Hydra. It could be that I should keep both to achieve a critical mass of GY cards, in which case, I am unsure of what to cut!
Toski, Bearer of Secrets has played well for me in other contexts, notably the MTG Arena cube. I've been wanting an extra token payoff in Green and this definitely fits the bill. Especially in MP games, because it will encourage attacks and it will be possible to find a random opponent to hit. Nice complement to Edric, Spymaster of Trest, makes me wonder if I should add a Bident of Thassa variant to cement the token card draw theme in Simic. If I were to do that, I would probably need more evasive creatures or tokens in blue.
Surrak is there because one of my drafters like it, but I'm not a huge fan of the vulnerable haste outlet.
I've also noticed that I might have too many token payoffs in Green compared to the token makers.
This has me eyeing the following
Command, Infestation and Beast play nicely in the already existing Mardu spells tokens deck. Combined with Call of the Herd, there is the making of a broad archetype (maybe missing a few pieces, but getting there).
Command's cheap mana value and versatility are enticing, while the Beast is a huge roadblock at the very least or a strong attacker. I could cut
Pest Infestation I am less sure about. The potential is clearly there, but I am afraid of hating out the artifact deck. That being said, there are some rather powerful enchantments and artifacts outside of that deck that could be kept in check.
I have an easy cut with Managorger Hydra, I am wondering how many of these I should fit. I could also see myself cutting Knight of Autumn from Selesnya to fit Infestation, but more is probably better for this kind of removal.
How would you rate these token makers?
Any ideas/comments about the other cuts?
Verdant Command I really like, so I rate that one pretty highly. Incidental GY permission usually rates pretty highly for me. If you feel like you have too many token payoffs, Toski seems to be exacerbating the situation a bit. Is there another token payoff you could swap out instead? That would allow both the Witness and Hydra stay if you go Witness -> Surrak. I can definitely see the logic of including Toski as an Edric effect with the tokens theme, but Hydra is a really good draw for self mill or other GY strats.
I don't think I realized pest infestation didn't need the X artifact/enchant targets. Spicy.
Lovestruck Beast I don't really count as a "token maker" even though it does technically make one.
I don't think I realized pest infestation didn't need the X artifact/enchant targets. Spicy.
Lovestruck Beast I don't really count as a "token maker" even though it does technically make one.
Good points, thanks for posting. I definitely agree with the value of having GY hate, making the Command shoot up in value.
Here are my current token payoffs in Green
Listing them explicitly, makes me realize that the last three are "payoffs".
Leap can let you trade a token for an actual creature, but it's also fine in a grindy BG deck with some sacrifice synergies or even a RG deck with some Threaten effects and disposable mana dorks later in the game.
Chariot, doubles your tokens (even more reason to keep Honored Hydra), but it doesn't actually reward you for going wide.
Finally, Jolrael's pump is pretty conditional, but the card is still plenty fine as just a token maker.
So maybe I am overstating my amount of token payoffs in Green and Toski will be fine.
So I could do something like:
In
Timeless Witness
Tireless Provisioner
Verdant Command
Pest Infestation
Out
Managorger Hydra
Surrak, the Hunt Caller
Grapple with the Past
Knight of Autumn?
Treetop Village?
The last cut is really tough and that's not even counting adding Toski!
Here are my current token payoffs in Green
Listing them explicitly, makes me realize that the last three are "payoffs".
Leap can let you trade a token for an actual creature, but it's also fine in a grindy BG deck with some sacrifice synergies or even a RG deck with some Threaten effects and disposable mana dorks later in the game.
Chariot, doubles your tokens (even more reason to keep Honored Hydra), but it doesn't actually reward you for going wide.
Finally, Jolrael's pump is pretty conditional, but the card is still plenty fine as just a token maker.
So maybe I am overstating my amount of token payoffs in Green and Toski will be fine.
So I could do something like:
In
Timeless Witness
Tireless Provisioner
Verdant Command
Pest Infestation
Out
Managorger Hydra
Surrak, the Hunt Caller
Grapple with the Past
Knight of Autumn?
Treetop Village?
The last cut is really tough and that's not even counting adding Toski!
Double posting, but I think I have a satisfying solution to my problem.
First of, I've been looking for a replacement for Teferi's Protection. It's just too easy to blank anything and everything for a mere 3 mana. I do like it as protection for the aggro player going all in, but in the cube games we've played it's been control players blanking aggro.
Instead, I am adding a card I keep forgetting exists
In 4-5 player games, this is solid value and it hits problematic permanents nicely.
So since I am adding both Dismantling Wave and Pest Infestation, I feel I can cut Knight of Autumn who's main mode is to Disenchant something. Instead, I will be adding Gavony Township as a special land to fetch for Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and Elvish Reclaimer which conveniently pumps tokens too. With this added land, I can cut Treetop Village even though I would like to find room for it again.
Hopefully these changes opens up Green to more colors and cements GY, tokens, spells, artifact and landfall strategies as an "obvious" thing to be doing (thus helping guide my drafters to some possible synergies).
First of, I've been looking for a replacement for Teferi's Protection. It's just too easy to blank anything and everything for a mere 3 mana. I do like it as protection for the aggro player going all in, but in the cube games we've played it's been control players blanking aggro.
Instead, I am adding a card I keep forgetting exists
In 4-5 player games, this is solid value and it hits problematic permanents nicely.
So since I am adding both Dismantling Wave and Pest Infestation, I feel I can cut Knight of Autumn who's main mode is to Disenchant something. Instead, I will be adding Gavony Township as a special land to fetch for Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and Elvish Reclaimer which conveniently pumps tokens too. With this added land, I can cut Treetop Village even though I would like to find room for it again.
Hopefully these changes opens up Green to more colors and cements GY, tokens, spells, artifact and landfall strategies as an "obvious" thing to be doing (thus helping guide my drafters to some possible synergies).
How has Leonin Lightscribe been for you?
Sadly, I haven't actually drafted with it in my cube, but I have drafted it in a bunch of decks where it looks strong. I've also played with/against it in Strixhaven limited where it was really strong and a standard deck where it shined too.
The winning recipe if you want it to shine is twofold for me:
1. Critical mass of spells
You need enough spells to trigger it obviously, but ideally proactive ones. Looking at your list, your White, Blue, Black and Red colors seem to have enough density for it to work. I'd probably try and squeeze some more proactive flashback/escape cards (Battle Screech, Lingering Souls, Smiting Helix, Kaleidoscorch, Scour all Possibilites, Cling to Dust, Rally the Peasants) or maybe some more adventure creatures (Giant Killer, Murderous Rider, Order of Midnight, Rimrock Knight, Brazen Borrower) or even Manamorphose as a free spell.
2. Similar support
You could probably jam it in your list without other support and have it work out, but where is the fun in that?!
You already have a nice spells package in White with Monastery Mentor and Shrine of Loyal Legions and in Red with Young Pyromancer, Dreadhorde Arcanist and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. I'd love to see a Sedgemoor Witch to give the Mardu colors a spells token GY deck. My environment is slower so I personally added Professor Onyx as another Black signpost card so that the Witch is less isolated.
Here are a few decks with the Lightscribe:
BW tokens
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/609d9470379b3d10ef1d0ffc
Low curve and plenty of flashback. Definitely missing a sacrifice outlet (in addition to Plumb the Forbidden) for a combo finish.
GW tokens
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/609913e639064e104b9dda3d
Might be a little light on spells, which is why I wanted to add Verdant Command and Pest Infestation.
Jeskai tempo
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/608eb903a92ae8104ced6cc1
Lots of interaction and cheap spells.
Mardu spells
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/608781e2ee26067fbc5d755b
Love this one with all the tokens and GY interactions. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame is great for the Lightscribe too. Gives it tokens to buff and/or some spells to trigger it.
Hope this helps you chose either way!
The winning recipe if you want it to shine is twofold for me:
1. Critical mass of spells
You need enough spells to trigger it obviously, but ideally proactive ones. Looking at your list, your White, Blue, Black and Red colors seem to have enough density for it to work. I'd probably try and squeeze some more proactive flashback/escape cards (Battle Screech, Lingering Souls, Smiting Helix, Kaleidoscorch, Scour all Possibilites, Cling to Dust, Rally the Peasants) or maybe some more adventure creatures (Giant Killer, Murderous Rider, Order of Midnight, Rimrock Knight, Brazen Borrower) or even Manamorphose as a free spell.
2. Similar support
You could probably jam it in your list without other support and have it work out, but where is the fun in that?!
You already have a nice spells package in White with Monastery Mentor and Shrine of Loyal Legions and in Red with Young Pyromancer, Dreadhorde Arcanist and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. I'd love to see a Sedgemoor Witch to give the Mardu colors a spells token GY deck. My environment is slower so I personally added Professor Onyx as another Black signpost card so that the Witch is less isolated.
Here are a few decks with the Lightscribe:
BW tokens
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/609d9470379b3d10ef1d0ffc
Low curve and plenty of flashback. Definitely missing a sacrifice outlet (in addition to Plumb the Forbidden) for a combo finish.
GW tokens
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/609913e639064e104b9dda3d
Might be a little light on spells, which is why I wanted to add Verdant Command and Pest Infestation.
Jeskai tempo
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/608eb903a92ae8104ced6cc1
Lots of interaction and cheap spells.
Mardu spells
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/608781e2ee26067fbc5d755b
Love this one with all the tokens and GY interactions. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame is great for the Lightscribe too. Gives it tokens to buff and/or some spells to trigger it.
Hope this helps you chose either way!
I've been thinking about this card a bunch and would like some outside opinion. I see this as an artifact Dark Ritual. The reason I want to include it is to help getting some strategies active earlier. Cards like Thousand-Year Storm, God-Pharaoh's Gift, Shark Typhoon, Memory Jar.
The fear is that it can churn out a turn 3 Inferno Titan, but that seems less busted in MP than in a duel. Plus it is card disadvantage to do so.
I've tried other fast mana like Mox Diamond, but the fact that you can repeatedly use it coupled to the 0 mana value was too much for my liking. Plus sometimes you get it blown up early and all of a sudden, you are missing land drops and are out of the game.
Any experience or thoughts on this mana rock/ritual in the context of more explosive cube goals?
It's far more powerful than Dark Ritual.
Dark Ritual gives +2 mana when you play it. Grim Monolith gives you +3 the next turn, which is a massive difference. Early Myr Battlespheres, Immortal Suns and Ugins are very likely. Quite frankly, it goes with everything. Being colorless, it fits in any deck and I would take it P1P1 every time.
Note that while it's not very efficient you can untap Grim Monolith to use the ability again. This way you can drop 6+ mana cards in turns 3 and 5.
Dark Ritual gives +2 mana when you play it. Grim Monolith gives you +3 the next turn, which is a massive difference. Early Myr Battlespheres, Immortal Suns and Ugins are very likely. Quite frankly, it goes with everything. Being colorless, it fits in any deck and I would take it P1P1 every time.
Note that while it's not very efficient you can untap Grim Monolith to use the ability again. This way you can drop 6+ mana cards in turns 3 and 5.
Thanks for the feedback. Here are a few changes I am considering
->
Bouncing a card isn't great in MP, but Spellbomb was there more as an artifact that could cycle. Hard Evidence gives me the same kind of vibe, but actually adds to my board AND draws a card instead of one or the other. I do lose out on Emry and Lurrus synergies, but gain spell based ones.
->
I recognize the power of Boon, but it isn't really exciting. I'd rather play another 1 mana cantrip instead or something even cheaper like Gush! This is just another free spell for storm (which is looking pretty good in the cube, I'll post a decklist) with some fun land synergies. Might be too narrow and would be better off as a second Frantic Search.
->
I've moved away from ninjas and attacking blue creatures in favor of more spells. I might be overdoing the spells matter archetype, but that is kind of the point right now (obvious archetypes for my drafters to catch onto). With more free spells and spell recursion, TitI looks a lot better than it did before. Plus, my drafters know what the DFC does so not much complexity creep.
Here is a deck that I drafted that showcases stormless storm I am aiming for. Basically a pile of cantrips and interaction with Thousand-Year Storm and Professor Onyx as win conditions. I am unsure whether the enchantment is good enough, but it seems like a cool dream to chase. Onyx is really solid however.
Yawgmoth's Will, The Mirari Conjecture and Kess, Dissident Mage to give some lasting power and the token makers to help you survive.
Only 1000 Storm seems overly parasitic, but I don't have another good win condition in mind for this type of deck.
Also drafted a Jund spells tokens deck, but it's missing a token payoff. Any idea of one that would fit this strategy?
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60d37dc003e4fb1053f94ad6
-> Bouncing a card isn't great in MP, but Spellbomb was there more as an artifact that could cycle. Hard Evidence gives me the same kind of vibe, but actually adds to my board AND draws a card instead of one or the other. I do lose out on Emry and Lurrus synergies, but gain spell based ones.
-> I recognize the power of Boon, but it isn't really exciting. I'd rather play another 1 mana cantrip instead or something even cheaper like Gush! This is just another free spell for storm (which is looking pretty good in the cube, I'll post a decklist) with some fun land synergies. Might be too narrow and would be better off as a second Frantic Search.
-> I've moved away from ninjas and attacking blue creatures in favor of more spells. I might be overdoing the spells matter archetype, but that is kind of the point right now (obvious archetypes for my drafters to catch onto). With more free spells and spell recursion, TitI looks a lot better than it did before. Plus, my drafters know what the DFC does so not much complexity creep.
Here is a deck that I drafted that showcases stormless storm I am aiming for. Basically a pile of cantrips and interaction with Thousand-Year Storm and Professor Onyx as win conditions. I am unsure whether the enchantment is good enough, but it seems like a cool dream to chase. Onyx is really solid however.
Yawgmoth's Will, The Mirari Conjecture and Kess, Dissident Mage to give some lasting power and the token makers to help you survive.
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Only 1000 Storm seems overly parasitic, but I don't have another good win condition in mind for this type of deck.
Also drafted a Jund spells tokens deck, but it's missing a token payoff. Any idea of one that would fit this strategy?
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/60d37dc003e4fb1053f94ad6
I don't think Gush is overly narrow, I think it hits a nice balance. The main issue is having two islands in play, which excludes some decks, but other than that it's fine.
I agree it's very easy to go overboard on spells!
I agree it's very easy to go overboard on spells!
I've been very impressed recently with BG-based storm. Here's a completely wild deck one of my players drafted yesterday:
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Basically, turns out 3 out of the four of us were drafting some style of storm so he never saw any rituals or blue cards. He adapted by using land shenanigans for mana and Experimental Frenzy, Bolas's Citadel, Valakut Exploration, Wheel of Fortune for card draw without access to blue. Witherbloom Apprentice was a complete monster - great at pressuring the opponent's life total and giving you extra life to spend with Citadel, Fastbond, and Sylvan Library. In fact, in all the games I saw him play, I don't think I ever saw him cast specifically Tendrils to win. In matches, his deck beat Brain Freeze Ritual Storm 2-1 and lost to Underworld Breach Delver 0-2.
I've been trying to make sure this style of deck is well supported in Green in particular with cards like:
Right now I'm on 2 copies of Green Sun's Zenith. I love how it can go into the spells deck as effective extra copies of Deathrite Shaman and Witherbloom Apprentice but you can keep your total creature count low.
Regarding token payoffs for a Jund deck, I think sacrifice outlets are an easy option. Goblin Bombardment (which you already run) would do wonders to turn all those 1/1's into direct damage pointed wherever needed.
I am currently very happy with
In the utility creature tutoring department. The "ult" mode is something, sure, but very rare. I like it because it can tutor from the graveyard. That makes it more versatile in seeking out key roleplayers. Not only can it tutor up the Sedgemoor Witch or Oracle of Mul Daya, but it can reanimate one too, as needed. Value reanimator and creature tutoring in one package is just so awesome.
I am currently very happy with
In the utility creature tutoring department. The "ult" mode is something, sure, but very rare. I like it because it can tutor from the graveyard. That makes it more versatile in seeking out key roleplayers. Not only can it tutor up the Sedgemoor Witch or Oracle of Mul Daya, but it can reanimate one too, as needed. Value reanimator and creature tutoring in one package is just so awesome.