"Fast" multiplayer cube

After drafting my cube a bunch and having some anonymous user on CubeCobra do a lot of drafts (thanks random stranger!), I am thinking there is some fat to trim. Not that there are any bad cards, but probably some unnecessary ones. The 540 podcast also had an episode on diminishing cube sizes and that was the final straw that motivated me.

Here are cuts I can make that aren't too painful along with an explanation.



I don't have enough spells for the Leoning Lightscribe to be consistent enough and I usually end up playing some dubious or off theme ones to make it work.

Maul of the Skyclave is just too expensive to equip. When 2-4 other players are here to mess you up, you don't have time to pay 4 mana to attach it to another threat.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant might actually not be a cut, but right now I have too many 4 mana token makers in White! I don't love losing the evasive ability here though.

Cast Out is a sweet one, but it was mostly cycled because of how expensive of a removal spell it is. Plus it doesn't fit any theme in particular. Also, with the fact that we play with fewer than 8 players, I can afford to be picky with my removal since there is more than enough to go around.

I don't have a great reason to cut Archangel Avacyn, but I don't really have a great reason to keep it in other than it is powerful. Not sure what to do.



Not a lot of cuts to be had in Blue IMO. The Cyptologist will probably be replaced by the new cantrip Consider. Meloku on the other hand is a little slow and clunky as well as being fragile for 5 mana. It does enable sweet plays, but it's a luxury more than a necessity.



With the addition of Ophiomancer, I have a decent amount of recursive dudes and this one is an ok blocker, but I dislike the play patterns that accompany it. Hold up 2 mana, chump a dude and repeat. I'd rather have Scrapheap Scrounger that is meant to get in and won't be an infinite road block.

Liliana, Rankle and Whisperer are GY filling cards with various upsides. None are essential, but Black needs some amount of self-mill to function. So a few will need to come back. Not sure which.

I just added Marionette Master as well as some extra treasure generators, but I am still conflicted on the card. For 6 mana it is narrow payoff in a color that doesn't have much synergy with artifacts. It does win games though and is a great build around.



Dragonkin Berserker is a filler 2 drop. It's actually pretty good, as first strike and a late game mana sink are exactly what an aggressive MP deck wants. However, it's the only Boast card and it doesn't do anything for micro archetypes. This cut might be reversed if I want more 2 drops.

Feldon is a complement to the Sneak Attack, Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant cheat package in Red. However, it is slower than these because of summoning sickness and has {R}{R} in the cost making it tougher to splash.

I included the saga because I think threaten effects play very well and help mesh a few archetypes together (spells + sacrifice or blink depending on the enabler). However, I find that they aren't very competitively costed or have some pretty big restrictions. Except Zealous Conscripts, I haven't found another threaten effect that I want to run. I could run the saga, but it's at the awkward 4 drop slot, doesn't untap or give haste and has a bunch of text that is likely to get you attacked. I'd love a 3 mana threaten that cantripped or something!

Anger doesn't fit into many decks which is why I chose to exclude it from this downsize. I do love a free haste enabler though as that can win games out of nowhere.

Cavalier of Flames is a tough one. It does a lot of things: fill the GY, mass anthem and lands payoff. However, I don't know if I want another Red 5 drop. He will come back in if I can find another cut.



I hate cutting 2 drops and Jolrael is one of the more interesting ones. Encourages you to go after cantrips and has a late game impact. It doesn't fit in many decks though.

Greater Good is 4 mana and requires a board and big creatures. It has its place in some decks, but not the majority.

Birthing Pod is another conditional one, but it is well loved in our group. It's probably reason enough to keep it, but when space is tight it is tough to justify keeping a narrow build around that doesn't always come together. Food for thought.

Gearhulk is just there as a way to get Green into the artifact game. I can live without it until there is more Green artifact support.

See the Unwritten is a clumsy way to bring Green into the cheat archetype. One card isn't enough and at 6 mana, it's too late.



I doubled on Lingering Souls to get more White spells for the likes of Leonin Lightscribe, turns out it's probably just better to cut the cat.

Soulherder is a rough cut, but it's a very fragile value engine. White already has a ton of blink effects and blue has Yorion and Thassa.

The Kavu is a strong beater, but I dislike how wordy it is. That being said, I may still play it as it does a lot of things RG decks want.



Just like with Soulherder, Panharmonicon is a clunky value engine. The upside here is that it is colorless and theoretically it could enable some deck with Terror of the Peaks or something. That's the thing with downsizing though, you lose out on some possibilities.

GPG follows the trend of removing these high mana value engine cards. This one has potential with Welder/Daretti and has served me well in the past, but in this iteration of my cube, lower mana costs is what I am experimenting with.

Finally Factory is out because my cube has more and more 3+ colored decks and this makes it tough to justify the colorless creature land. Plus, with AFR Red and White got 2 new ones, meaning aggressive decks still have access to these threats.

Whew, that was quite the write up! Cutting 30+ cards isn't easy, but writing out the reasoning for each cut helped me reconsider some. If I can't clearly explain why I am making this choice, then it's time to think some more.

I tried a few drafts with the new list, here are some quick pros and cons:

+ Drafting feels smoother and less all over the place which will be good for my less experienced drafters.
+ Archetypes feel stronger as there is less "chaff".
- I've isolated Green more since I've cut some bridge cards.
- I cut a bunch of cards that pushed through damage. Will need to playtest to see if I went too far.

Time to playtest more :p
 
i really like these cuts! i would quibble over a few individual cards (Jolrael in particular), but i think the overall direction is a good one. definitely cutting a lot of fat here!
 
nooooo my man Feldon
Yeah, this one hurts. Easily one of my favourite cards for fair reanimation/value, but I don’t think it is necessary with the other Red cheat cards.
If you have a convincing argument I’m all ears!

i really like these cuts! i would quibble over a few individual cards (Jolrael in particular),
Thanks! Say no more, she is back in. Adding more 2 drops is a low bar for me to clear, especially one with late game value potential.

looking at my list some more, I’ve identified some more potential cuts. Not sure on these though as they play well, I’d love outside opinions:

 
If you have a convincing argument I’m all ears!
That was my argument :\

For real though, it's actually as fast as Daretti, and faster than sneak attack (but obviously less bursty than attack), being able to activate for the first time on T4, mana shenanigans aside. I also like that it interacts with any creature like Attack, not just artifact creatures, and those creatures come in as artifacts, helping with artifact count for whatever purpose. It feels like a good complement to Daretti and Attack, because those two help with dumping creatures into the yard, and Feldon can then yoink copies of what is dumped. Extra synergy bonus points for being able to make an artifact for Daretti to sac later that turn to get the "real" version from the grave permanently.
 
Yeah, this one hurts. Easily one of my favourite cards for fair reanimation/value, but I don’t think it is necessary with the other Red cheat cards.
If you have a convincing argument I’m all ears!


Thanks! Say no more, she is back in. Adding more 2 drops is a low bar for me to clear, especially one with late game value potential.

looking at my list some more, I’ve identified some more potential cuts. Not sure on these though as they play well, I’d love outside opinions:

on this list, i’d be especially suspicious of Plumb, Garruk, and Krenko. Normally i’d be looking to cut Slime as well, but it gains some value as a rattlesnake in multiplayer, so if it still plays well, probably ok to leave in.
 
Hi Nanonox, hi everyone!

I’ve felt in love with your creation in the past weeks and have been drafting alot of it on CubeCobra.

Thanks for the endless entertainment it brings me ;)

I like it so much that I’m actually bringing a physical copy (greatly inspired by your list) to my MTG night with 2 friends tomorrow. Can’t wait!
 
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For real though, it's actually as fast as Daretti, and faster than sneak attack (but obviously less bursty than attack), being able to activate for the first time on T4, mana shenanigans aside. I also like that it interacts with any creature like Attack, not just artifact creatures, and those creatures come in as artifacts, helping with artifact count for whatever purpose. It feels like a good complement to Daretti and Attack, because those two help with dumping creatures into the yard, and Feldon can then yoink copies of what is dumped. Extra synergy bonus points for being able to make an artifact for Daretti to sac later that turn to get the "real" version from the grave permanently.
What you say is true, but there are a bunch of reasons why I think there is a pretty big difference between it and Daretti/Sneak
- Double Red mana
- Has summoning sickness (so needs to survive a whole turn cycle)
- Is a creature (more vulnerable)
- Cheat is temporary and expensive to activate

All these reasons are why I chose to tentatively cut it. You are probably right that it's still good and interesting enough to include (especially if I cut Krenko).

on this list, i’d be especially suspicious of Plumb, Garruk, and Krenko.
Good stuff. Plumb might become a second Night's Whisper, Liliana of the Veil or Rankle, Master of Pranks

Instead of Garruk, I am eyeing a Green creature land. Treetop Village or Lair of the Hydra. I don't know if there is a point where there are too many creature lands, but I really like how they play and effectively give you an extra "free" spell for you deck.

Hi Nanonox, hi everyone!

I’ve felt in love with your creation in the past weeks and have been drafting alot of it on CubeCobra.

Thanks for the endless entertainment it brings me ;)

I like it so much that I’m actually bringing a physical copy (greatly inspired by your list) to my MTG night with 2 friends tomorrow. Can’t wait!

You have no idea how awesome that is to hear. I hope the list will serve you well and would love for you to post about what worked and what didn't if you are up for it.
As for all the drafts, a huge thank you. Having outside input is very valuable as cubes can become a bit inbred because of how much time we spend thinking about them.

Here are some sweet ones you drafted:

Lurrus Saga








Tokens Reanimator











Temur Population








 
i’ve been finding Lair a bit awkward in constructed, but sizing up past 3/3 is likely quite relevant in multi, and it doesn’t necessarily come in tapped which is always a big plus. big fan of Night’s Whisper too
 
I also cut Feldon. He's just too vulnerable for such a demanding card. You need to draft big creatures, fill the graveyard with them and pay a minimun of six mana to get your Corpse Dance effect. If he gets blown up or things don't line up, you are in an awful position. It's kind of like playing a bad reanimator deck.

I can see it being good and interesting in the right cube but I'm not sure yours is the place for it.
 
I am eyeing some more discard/self-mill for Black and landed on these 4 candidates with only 2 slots available



Rankle + LotV seem like a nice disruptive package for more aggressive decks.

LtLH + demon would fit into a more controlling combination.

Any 2 cards that would make sense to anyone?
 
I am eyeing some more discard/self-mill for Black and landed on these 4 candidates with only 2 slots available



Rankle + LotV seem like a nice disruptive package for more aggressive decks.

LtLH + demon would fit into a more controlling combination.

Any 2 cards that would make sense to anyone?
For a self-mill card in Black, could Mindwrack Demon be a candidate?
 
For a self-mill card in Black, could Mindwrack Demon be a candidate?

It has been in my cube in the past, but my drafters weren't able to get over the downside (in their defense, the tools might not have been as present as they are today to support delirium in my cube). But you are right that it does everything I want. Cheap enough, evasive, big body and self-mill. I could see myself trying it again. Thanks!
 
So I have three slots to play around with and decided to add Birthing Pod again as it ticks a few boxes (ETB, sacrifice and artifacts) and is a fun, splashable build around.
I'd like some opinions on other cards that could fit a similar role (synergy build around I guess?). One that I love that isn't realistic is Bolas's Citadel. It fits into artifacts, storm and sacrifice decks nicely.

Also I've been eyeing



as a replacement to Reclamation Sage. It's a lot more efficient at removing trouble permanents and the one mana difference doesn't seem like a huge deal as I don't have many Green 4 drops.

Also as I look more critically over some cards I haven't considered cutting before, I am liking these less and less



Doom Engine is 6 mana for a pretty low impact creature. It was included because I was short on artifact fatties, but since then I've added two 9 drops (typing it out feels weird) and it's the less impactful of my 6+ artifacts.

Venser is a card I absolutely love in 1vs1, but the value is more dubious with multiple opponents. 2/2 body is nothing and bouncing a single card is difficult to justify at 4 mana.

Riftwing is similar, but I like it better since it has different casting costs and has evasion. Still not amazing by any means.

Instead of these, I like the idea of Breya, Etherium Shaper that I saw in blacksmithy's cube. Nettlecyst is also a strong contender as is Managorger Hydra that I miss.

These last few slots are really difficult to fill, maybe the new Innistrad set will offer some goodies for my environment!
 
i like the druid as a potential 3-for-1 and because it blocks well, both being good multiplayer features.

Breya has played quite well for me, and i think Managorger scales awesome for multiplayer. i haven’t tested nettlecyst but i hear good things.

As far as blue cards to replace Venser and Cloudskate… maybe Standstill? it seems pretty funny in a multiplayer context and i’ve enjoyed it greatly in play so far.
i also like Fae of Wishes, even if it was ultimately a little too slow for my environment, it’s cool and good value
 
I like the druid because it's a more interesting version of the effect and has a more relevant body than the alternatives. I'm a big believer that, if you can choose an unusual or more interesting effect for your cube, why not do that over the standard?

I love Venser and Cloudskate but I agree they might not be at their best in multiplayer, especially the first one. I also agree that Scuttling Doom Engine is low-impact, but be aware that there are not many alternatives. I'm testing Nettlecyst and I like it but I think it needs a few more artifacts in the cube.
 
Added the druid, should play well as both of you've said.

As far as blue cards to replace Venser and Cloudskate… maybe Standstill? it seems pretty funny in a multiplayer context and i’ve enjoyed it greatly in play so far.
For some play groups that would be a great suggestion, but having each opponent draw 3 won't fly with my players. I am not necessarily looking for Blue cards though. These are some flex slots.

i also like Fae of Wishes, even if it was ultimately a little too slow for my environment, it’s cool and good value
I have never considered her before, but it could actually be a decent add. Grabbing a splash card, a situational card or generic one that you couldn't fit is great.
I've played with it in the MTG Arena cube and it was serviceable there.

Wanted to showcase 2 decks that Drawbacks drafted (<3) that really exemplify what I want my cube to be able to do:

Boros Parfait










So a classic strategy, a Boros token deck. The cards are powerful enough individually to hook my drafters (a problem I had before when I lowered the power level too much).
But what has me so happy is a silly little card: Ashnod's Altar. The token player can now transform his primary ressource (creatures) into a new one, mana. And there are some good mana sinks here with all the X spells.
Then there is another layer made possible by Chandra, Acolyte of Flame. Not only can it provide the fodder a normal token deck wants, but it also helps cast said X spells if they are already used.

Esper Saga











First of all, same observation: the cards in the deck are all individually powerful (necessary for my playgroup preferences).
Second of all, the curve stops at 4. That is quite the feat for a MP deck, but at the same time, I don't think deck is lacking in win conditions. The Antiquities War, Monastery Mentor and Urza's Saga (which in turn grabs equipments) can do a lot of work.
Finally, the engine pieces are brutal! Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Emry, Lurker of the Loch, Yawgmoth's Will and Yawgmoth, Thran Physician allow you reuse almost all the components from your deck or keep the cards flowing.

These types of decks are my favorite as they blend together a whole bunch of themes together into one coherent machine. I'd love to see decks some of you may have drafted in your cubes to use as inspiration or if you have ideas that would further all my cube to pump out these decks.
 
how many skullclamp do you run? i love that card but it’s one i have banned due to unfair levels of power. i suppose in multiplayer it’s a little easier to overcome via politick. that’s the common thread i see here, and agree the individual card power is really high on average in each deck.
 
how many skullclamp do you run?
« Just » the one. It’s definitely one of the top 5 most powerful cards in the cube, but yeah. In MP cubes you have more leeway to run power outliers since you can find yourself in a 3vs1 which is rough.
Might still be unreasonable to run it, but it is fun.
 
Skullclamp adds so much to your cube, I would keep it if it's being kept in check. You have plenty of powerful stuff and, while extremely strong, it fits into an inherently weak archetype. It doesn't seem like it would be an issue with several players around you to keep it in check.
 
yeah i’m not saying it’s something you should ban. in fact i would consider if it’s an effect you want MORE of (if you can solve the problem of making sure one player doesn’t get all the Clamps)
reasoning being, if it’s powering the decks you want to see, then maybe it’s OK that it’s “too” good? like brainstorm and flooting haha
 
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in fact i would consider if it’s an effect you want MORE of
That is a good point, but I don't think I am willing to add a second Skullclamp. I do have Yawgmoth, Thran's Physician in black that plays similarly, but is obviously worse.

I am however ok including tutors to go and fetch the equipment.
Currently have Enlightened Tutor, Stoneforge Mystic, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Urza's Saga.
This naturally makes BW a great clamp deck as they can reliably fetch it and have plenty of fodder to sacrifice.

Now onto a serious matter, finding cuts! I posted my includes here which is nice and all, but now for the tough part.

There are a few easy ones in the cube that are out for my includes:



Plunderer never really worked, it needs fodder and costs 4 mana and all it does is give you mana. Doom Engine is a little slow and low impact with my current list and as much as I like having cheap versatile interaction, I have a ton of Golgari cards, so one has to go. A little imbalance doesn't bother me, but I think I have 7 cards there right now (including 2 hybrids, but still).

I will be switching Infernal Grasp for Go for the Throat. I want to be able to hit my fattest targets and most are artifact. They are resilient though so it isn't the end of the world if they get removed. The life cost will make for some interesting decisions.

On the subject of removal, I will probably remove one of my existing White options for the new Fateful Absence. The two potential cuts are Grasp of Fate and Unexpectedly Absent. I like the multiplayer aspect of Grasp, but dislike it being an enchantment (as I have nothing that cares about that card type) and it has the potential to blow up in your face. Absent has more play to it being an instant and still hits multiple card types. I am leaning on cutting Grasp of Fate.

As for my tests, I would like to try Adeline and she would likely take the place of another beater.

->

I am scoring some big Blacksmithy points here lowering the curve. Also adding a multiplayer mechanic which is cool. The downside is that Hero is well known and loved around these parts so even if the cube might be better off with Adeline, I'm not sure it's the best decision for my players.

->

I believe that the Massacre is a more flexible card than Bastion as it can go into aggressive decks and controlling decks both. It serves as a mana sink as well. The downside is that adding another wrath might slow games down too much. At the same time, I want there to be competition between cards especially if different archetypes (macro and micro) want it. Should I cut on Damnation or Living Death as well, to keep my amount of wraths?

-> ???

Really unsure about this one. My lands decks tend to go in two directions: landfall or land recursion value. This one helps with recursion to be sure while also beating face. It just feels a little narrow (even if the base case is fine) and I am not sure I actually need more land matters cards that have Green in them. The archetype is already solidly planted in that color.

I'm particularly interested on your thoughts regarding my White removal situation as well as my testing cuts.
 
some thoughts on cuts:

Slogurk - cut a Golgari card. Probably Fiend Artisan or Meren.

White removal - i would actually look at your artifact/enchantment removal here as it seems like there’s a bunch. Dismantling Wave or Angel of the Ruins would be my cuts for Fateful Absence, but you know your format and if those are legit maindeck material, then i think Grasp is probably an OK cut here.
you could also cut some random white fatty for extra bonus “blacksmithy points” haha
 
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