General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
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Sea Drake: 5% (0% in a deck with Bounce Lands)Could you give me an estimated ranking of how likely these cards are to be played in a deck with zero landfall?
Edit: the other blue archetypes are Ninja Tempo, Spells Matter Control, Blink and Draw Go Control.
Deprive: 65% (95% Draw Go)
Living Tsunami: 25%
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, percentages are really power level and speed dependant. I would estimate maindeck % in my cube, which is probably a 4/10 in power and 5/10 in speed, for those cards:
Sea Drake: 20% (a 4/3 flier for 3 is really really strong, and casting on T4 or T5 is a reasonable play, but players would evaluate it lower than they should. IMO optimally it should be more like 40%)
Deprive: 20% (this would be one of my worst counterspells, and countering early game is pretty necessary)
Living Tsunami: 10% (a 4/4 flier for 4 is strong, but the drawback is huge)
In the context of your cube, I think Sea Drake and Living Tsunami go up due to power level, and Deprive stays about the same. Sea Drake is heavily punished by removal power, while Living Tsunami is not. Deprive is better as the environment gets slower.
Sea Drake: 20% (a 4/3 flier for 3 is really really strong, and casting on T4 or T5 is a reasonable play, but players would evaluate it lower than they should. IMO optimally it should be more like 40%)
Deprive: 20% (this would be one of my worst counterspells, and countering early game is pretty necessary)
Living Tsunami: 10% (a 4/4 flier for 4 is strong, but the drawback is huge)
In the context of your cube, I think Sea Drake and Living Tsunami go up due to power level, and Deprive stays about the same. Sea Drake is heavily punished by removal power, while Living Tsunami is not. Deprive is better as the environment gets slower.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That is a good reason to play Deprive indeed. Maybe if you run a UtilityLand Draft it might get better.
If you make Deprive your only cc2 hard counter in your cube, I see it as a normal counterspell with a different cost than say Dissolve or Dissipate, which cost more mana but make up for it with a small upside, while Deprive has a drawback in most decks but is still a cc2 counterspell (which the other mentioned aren't). In a dedicated deck, it's drawback also isn't a drawback anymore, but maybe a small one or even a small upside.
I find it harder to justify the two creatures mentioned besides Deprive in a similar way.
I find it harder to justify the two creatures mentioned besides Deprive in a similar way.
Oh, it's not like the environment hasn't any landfall in it. In fact, my current plan for 600 will have 6 cards with actual landfall trggers in blue, plus Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Glasspool Mimic and Trade Routes as well as Adventuring Gear in colorless. I just wanted to make sure, that the next blue landfall enabler didn't necessarily need all the green stuff to have a realistic chance of seeing main deck play.
I was very close to just taking Sea Drake, but I don't like that it becomes removal roulette sometimes. Maybe I should be cubing the Tsunami, but I figured my blue decks want counterspells more often than undercosted beaters.
You know what? I had one open spot left in blue and this is going to be my last new card. It might not be super powerful, but it might hit the sweet spot between
landfall and spells, as well as fitting nicely into the mono color/devotion theme I'm having.
The final reason I am sticking with Deprive for now however, is my latest draft. My girlfriend build a sweet fish-like tempo deck, playing all the Savannah Lions and Sunhome Stalwarts, backed up with bounce and counter magic. Deprive did nice work in that deck from turn 3 or 4 on, where she could add another cheap aggressive creature to the board or play a Pacifism while keeping the counter backup.
I was very close to just taking Sea Drake, but I don't like that it becomes removal roulette sometimes. Maybe I should be cubing the Tsunami, but I figured my blue decks want counterspells more often than undercosted beaters.
Deprive really wants
You know what? I had one open spot left in blue and this is going to be my last new card. It might not be super powerful, but it might hit the sweet spot between
landfall and spells, as well as fitting nicely into the mono color/devotion theme I'm having.The final reason I am sticking with Deprive for now however, is my latest draft. My girlfriend build a sweet
fish-like tempo deck, playing all the Savannah Lions and Sunhome Stalwarts, backed up with bounce and counter magic. Deprive did nice work in that deck from turn 3 or 4 on, where she could add another cheap aggressive creature to the board or play a Pacifism while keeping the counter backup.There are actually people who want Mystic Sanctuary banned in modern because it can pull off a pretty decent softlock with Cryptic Command, and because you can grab it with fetchlands.
I think it should be alright in Cube, though.
I think it should be alright in Cube, though.
Banned in Pauper. Card's the real deal. It'll be safe to play with nothing to loop it, though. Deprive-lock could be an issue.
Yup, hate that combination. Pauper clearly suffered from it.
On the other hand, pauper still has all the monarch shit going on..
On the other hand, pauper still has all the monarch shit going on..
I think in a slow, low power environment, deprive is definitely a shoo-in to many decks. Maybe a 65% play rate is generous for a non-controlling blue deck, but in a draw-go deck where you just want as many counterspells as possible, I can see it being good. A bad 2-mana hard counter is still a 2-mana hard counter. A deck that wants a Counterspell is going to play it.
If you play lands with etb effects like the temples or gain lands it's even an upside for a draw-go deck.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think you're talking yourself into it. It's still a downside, just less of downside.
Yeah, if draw-go gets to the point where it prefers scry 1 to having an extra land on the board, it's already close to winning.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You are still going to draw land naturally over the course of the game, especially if you're playing draw-go. I can't envision a scenario where I wouldn't rather have a Mana Leak or even Prohibit in my deck. I mean, I can certainly think of situations where I'ld rather have the Deprive in hand, but that doesn't mean it's better in the deck. Bouncing a land really is an awful drawback, especially when you're trying to grind out a match and get to the late game.
vs Should I replace FoW with Pact of Negation in my cube? (I don't want Force of Negation)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Is your environment the place where people want/need a 0 mana counterspell?
Often I found cards like these weren't worth the card/temp loss
Often I found cards like these weren't worth the card/temp loss
Pact of Negation plays poorly in my experiences with the card. Even if you pay the mana, you still often lose the game on the subsequent turn(s). It is literally only good if it is protecting a winning card or combo that will finish the game before the
Should I replace FoW with Pact of Negation in my cube? (I don't want Force of Negation)
comes due.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I played FoW, and I cut it (a long time ago), because it basically has no reason to be in your cube, unless you need it to protect or protect against combo decks. If combo is a big part of your cube, that does make FoW (and Pact of Negation) good.