General Fight Club

sigh

sigh

Yeah Brutality and Bone Shards are both welcome includes, but one-off timing can really make it tricky to put the effect at the correct spot in the game. I Guess for now I stick with the Dragoon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I might try the

inscho said:
1/3 for 1B that gains deathtouch when you discard :cool:
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Something like this would be perfect for a grindier setup.
 
sigh

sigh

inscho said:
I see you aren't running



Which can be serviceable as a Jalum Tome, but can give your reanimated piece evasion once they hit the board. It's also very relevant in aggro especially if you run creature pump or saboteur dorks.
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I can see trying this out again, and I probably wouldn't have much trouble finding a slot. treasure map isnt the most critical piece to keep, that's for sure...
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

sigh said:
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I prefer Olivia's Dragoon in this fight. I think it's a much better beater and being able to gain evasion is super relevant. I know it's one of the first cards I would add if I were looking for a repeatable discard outlet, it's probably in the top 3 best versions of that effect.

Oona's Prowler and Putrid Imp are both good options as well in this slot. I know some people don't like the fact that the opponent can discard to Oona's Prowler to make it smaller. I've never had this happen before in one of my games with it, so I think the "downside" of the card is pretty small, but it's worth thinking about. Putrid Imp is an efficient, small, evasive beater that goes well into aggressive shells. If you ever expand your Zombies archetype, it would be a great inclusion.
 
inscho

inscho

I like Oona's Prowler a lot, but in my cube I'm more scared of what my opponent does with those discarded cards than I am concerned with my Prowler getting smaller. That shouldn't be as much of a problem in other cubes tho.
 
sigh

sigh

inscho said:
I like Oona's Prowler a lot, but in my cube I'm more scared of what my opponent does with those discarded cards than I am concerned with my Prowler getting smaller. That shouldn't be as much of a problem in other cubes tho.
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This is where I'm at with Prowler. Lots of decks in the cube can like discarding cards, I don't want to give the opponent a free leg up on the matter.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Brad said:
Is Key actually good? Seems a lot worse than a Looting or a Grapple and there's quite a few variants of each.
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Key was terrible by the time I stopped playing it, but I suspect that was partially because my Cube's power level increased between the time I added it and the time I cut it. I think it's a good card for Cubes in the Penny-Pincher part of the power band, but I think It becomes significantly worse as your cube starts becoming faster and more powerful.

I'm not sure it would be good in the Black Cube, but I think you could work it into your Onslaught Cube if that's what you're after.
 
japahn

japahn

It looked bad in my cube too, like a clunky Jalum Tome (which is already not playable in my cube). I suppose it can be good in graveyard heavy decks and cubes when discarding is more upside than downside, though.
 
Brad

Brad

K. I have a heavily artifact dependent version of The Black Cube brewing and didn't want to miss it. It won't be added.
 
Brad

Brad


Maybe not a fight so much as me looking for opinions. I hear Death talked about highly and I've seen Vaults talked about lowly, but they seem pretty similarly powerful in the right environment. Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Living Death is far better in practically every cube.

First, it destroys creatures which is more significant than doing the same with artifacts. Second, it brings back creatures which tends to be more abuseable than artifacts and enchantments. Lastly, Living Death can be a fine addition to any fair deck while the other two need to be built around. You cannot jam Scrap Mastery in a typical Jund deck but you can do it with Living Death.

I would also rather have Daretti, Scrap Savant, Goblin Welder or Replenish to cheat a single target than to bring all the artifacts and enchantments I have back to play.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Brad said:

Maybe not a fight so much as me looking for opinions. I hear Death talked about highly and I've seen Vaults talked about lowly, but they seem pretty similarly powerful in the right environment. Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?
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5 mana > 6 mana. It's so much easier to cast those other two cards because they cost a little bit less. Getting a board full of creatures out of the graveyard is also much stronger than getting a bunch of random artifacts and enchantments in most Cubes.

To be fair, I don't think Open the Vaults is bad, but it is difficult to use as effectively as Living Death. The fact that it's a little more expensive and a little less relevant makes it much worse.
 
japahn

japahn

They are really far away from each other in my mind map. Both like self-milling as enablers, true, but that's as far as the similarities go.

Living death reanimates creatures, which die naturally. Open the Vaults requires you to work to fill the hard with artifacts and enchantments.

Living Death is a wrath.

Living Death is problematic when your opponent has lost a lot of creatures. Open the Vaults never runs into this issue because the opponent did not draft around it.

Living Death works with sacrifice well. Open the Vault works with eggs and spellbombs flavors of artifacts.

Living Death can be ok in random decks, since most decks run creatures. A Living Death deck can function ok without it. Open the Vaults requires drafting a very specific deck around it, and the deck need other sorts of payoffs to make up for the strange composition.
 
Brad

Brad

What if all three were in the Mirrodin plane? There's probably like 65-80% as many artifacts as creatures there. That's what I'm seeing as the main issue, yeah? Lack of artifacts in normal environments?
 
sigh

sigh

It's not really an "issue". It just the cards operate very differently. Even if literally every creature was an artifact, open the vaults would operate very differently from Living Death.
 
Brad

Brad

TrainmasterGT said:
Getting a board full of creatures out of the graveyard is also much stronger than getting a bunch of random artifacts and enchantments in most Cubes.

a little more expensive and a little less relevant makes it much worse.
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japahn said:
Living death reanimates creatures, which die naturally. Open the Vaults requires you to work to fill the hard with artifacts and enchantments.

Living Death is problematic when your opponent has lost a lot of creatures. Open the Vaults never runs into this issue because the opponent did not draft around it.

Living Death works with sacrifice well. Open the Vault works with eggs and spellbombs flavors of artifacts.

Living Death can be ok in random decks, since most decks run creatures. A Living Death deck can function ok without it. Open the Vaults requires drafting a very specific deck around it, and the deck need other sorts of payoffs to make up for the strange composition.
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sigh said:
It's not really an "issue". It just the cards operate very differently. Even if literally every creature was an artifact, open the vaults would operate very differently from Living Death.
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Sorry, but most of the comments were directed at the ease of utilizing creatures for the payoff rather than artifacts. In fact, Scrap Mastery as the middleman was entirely glossed over. I get that they operate differently, but I'm curious about a comparison of effects. I guess what I'm actually more interested in, then, would be:

These are closer together and probably a more representative comparison for the environment where I was considering Death+Scrap+Vaults. I'd like to hear experiences/differences with these two. How significant is the extra mana? The wrath effect?
 
japahn

japahn

In artifact heavy environment, I think they are a lot more similiar, yeah. Would be an interesting archetype to have in a Mirrodin cube.

The wrath part is extremely relevant still, for good and for bad. That's what makes Living Death so swingy, flipping the game completely, and it is what allows you ample time to set it up while ignoring opposing creatures - the opponent either overcommits to the board and maximized pressure or has to be patient and exert just enough pressure for you to have to pull the trigger wiping out a small board.

5 to 6 mana is also relevant, but not as much as the wrath part.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Brad said:
Image.ashx
Image.ashx

These are closer together and probably a more representative comparison for the environment where I was considering Death+Scrap+Vaults. I'd like to hear experiences/differences with these two. How significant is the extra mana? The wrath effect?
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Well, in this fight, Living Death still wins. You can actually build around Living Death as a combination of Wrath+Make a Giant Board, something which isn't possible with Twilight's Call. The call, costing extra mana and not having that neat effect, just isn't nearly as good. It's still a fun build around, but the power level is much lower than that of Living Death.
 
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