General Fight Club

[Onderzeeboot]

I like having a white walker as a control finisher, both Elspeth and Gideon perform that role well. It's just that Elspeth has been a little obnoxious in recent drafts and I haven't played with Gideon in a while either. I don't remember which is more obnoxious. I do think the Gideon card has some really badass flavor though, and I like that he can be picked off with simple spot removal. Then again, he's basically indestructible versus a red deck unless they go big.

They're both pretty much the same power level to me, not sure which is more fun to play with though.

I tried both, and Gideon was far worse (as in: far more obnoxious) than Elspeth, Sun's Champion. That said, I cut Elspeth as well in a recent update. White doesn't really need the planeswalkers to be interesting in my experience.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Does white contribute enough to control without planeswalkers? You have great removal and some solid creatures, but nothing that really draws you into the colour.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Finishers and sweepers?

 

[Jason Waddell]

I like Gideon, but maybe most people don't live in a world that need those sorts of anti-aggro measures.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I found gideon way more beatable than elsepth suns champion

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I like Gideon, but maybe most people don't live in a world that need those sorts of anti-aggro measures.

I'd honestly rather have to design an environment with "how do I make people live past turn four" than ponder how to make anyone want to run aggro and not just durdle around with fatties.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Does white contribute enough to control without planeswalkers? You have great removal and some solid creatures, but nothing that really draws you into the colour.

Rasmus already mentioned a few, here's some more:


Why do you feel white-based control needs cards to draw people into the color and archetype though? Maybe white is too aggro oriented in your cubed you want white to be able to do something else and signal that loud and clear? (I really don't know, just trying to spark a thought here!)

 

[shamizy]

Personally, if I see a card like Elspeth or Gideon early, they're a big draw towards going some sort of Wx Control. You're looking for a finisher moreso than board control in early packs, I usually don't pick up wraths super early unless I know that I'm going aggro (so hatedraft) or to round out a control deck.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Another thing to note about gideon is please find me another creature that hits as hard as he does the turn after a wrath.
Control card sure, but I love a control card that allows them to go on the offensive

 

[Dom Harvey]

Why do you feel white-based control needs cards to draw people into the color and archetype though? Maybe white is too aggro oriented in your cubed you want white to be able to do something else and signal that loud and clear? (I really don't know, just trying to spark a thought here!)

I don't even support conventional white aggro as a strategy, I just find it's difficult for control decks in WR and WB to compete with blue unless you have non-creature sources of card advantage, which barely exist in white outside of walkers (yay Survival Cache, I guess?!)

 

[Chris Taylor]

I don't even support conventional white aggro as a strategy, I just find it's difficult for control decks in WR and WB to compete with blue unless you have non-creature sources of card advantage, which barely exist in white outside of walkers (yay Survival Cache, I guess?!)

Man, I kinda wish there was like a half size gristlebrand with a "activate once during your end step" or some shit on his ability

 

[Dom Harvey]

Based on a comment in another thread:

 

[ahadabans]

I think the art on Cloudgoat is awful personally. And I love the art on the monk, plus she's a human. So that is the card I have typically run in the past, though she can be a little lackluster. Cloudgoat is definitely better. I have no experience with Scion, but it looks interesting. I don't think I'm interested in it at this time though.

 

[Eric Chan]

Cloudgoat Ranger is the only one with enough juice to make most people's cubes here, I imagine. I ran Scion of Vitu-Ghazi for a few months, but it was far enough below the power curve that no one ever considered picking it. Geist-Honored Monk might be a happy medium between the two, though I've never tested her, and I think she hews closer to Scion than to Cloudgoat.

I've gone from loving army-in-a-can cards in constructed to hating them for cube, though, so I prefer these at the white five-drop slot, each of which fits into several white archetypes:

 

[James Stevenson]

I think the art on Cloudgoat is awful personally.

O: what! That's one of my favorite arts. I love the concept!

Re: Those white 5-drops: I run Cloudgoat Ranger. People play it, unlike Scion of Vitu-Ghazi which nobody ever took. I don't find it gums up the field much, it usually goes on offence right away.

 

[Eric Chan]

Lorwyn art is the best. The BEST!

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

You and I are friends Can, I love that entire blocks art.

 

[ahadabans]

There was a really good discussion on art while back. And I think Lorwyn came up specifically. I like the more realistic art personally. Lorwyn for me was too cartoonish and light. But I understand it appeals to some. Cloudgoat is definitely a good card though. I just think it looks like shit is all, and how much I like or dislike art influences whether it gets a spot in my cube. It probably shouldn't, but my cube is about aesthetics not just function. Right or wrong.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I like the old art. It was pure anarachy: the artists just did whatever the fuck they wanted and it was awesome. I just think back to the eclectic mix of styles when holding a circa 1995 grip of cards in my hand and think that this is truly the endless possibilities of Magic. Of course some of the pieces were truly disastrous, but that's a small cost for the awesomeness of it all.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I really enjoyed the free-wheeling style of the original batch of Magic artists. They also tended to use a more abstract, painterly, high fantasy feel, rather than the hyperrealistic 3D rendering technique artists tend to use today. I can understand the creative team wanting more cohesion between pieces in a given set, but I think the price for that cohesion has been too high.

With regards to goofy artwork, I personally love it, as I think it increases a card's charm. But I understand that a whole block worth of goofy artwork is probably overkill for the vast majority of the Magic playing populace, and sales figures would seem to concur. A couple of goofy cards per set is all I ask for.

 

[shamizy]

I like how most of the Lorwyn art looks, but I will never ever ever like Kithkin. Most of them are just squashed up and super fucking creepy to me.

I like a lot of the newer art compared to older stuff, but I definitely miss the old card frames they used. Just so much sweeter than whatever we've had for a while now.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, amen to that. After almost twelve years, it's time for a frame update; the Modern ones have never been all that appealing, just functional and legible. I'm surprised they didn't go all out in giving it a new coat of paint while they went about tweaking the bottom of the frame.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm not an extremist either way on art. I think there's good art all throughout Magic's history, including Lorwyn. I love the art of Clique for example. I love the art that Eric just posted. Those are really awesome examples actually and I can dig every single one of them - old and new.

I also agree that the hyper realistic art goes too far, but some of it is really amazing too. So really, it's a mixed bag for me across the board.

As a general rule, I prefer the old frames to the new frames. Except gold cards. I think the new gold color is a lot better than the old color. I also liked the Future Sight border, and when given the choice I'd probably always choose that card over other options just so I have that style represented in my cube. Future Sight Goyf >>>>>> Modern Masters version due to the frame (despite how cool the art is on the modern masters card).

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I am going to crash the art nostalgia party. Old magic art was strange and weird, and for every Serra Angel or Sengir Vampire, you had dozens of stinkers like these:



What is with carapace? Why does the dude's armor include a ball sack on his back? What is with the blinding blue and light blue beams as the background on recycle? Would a real background have cost too much money? Why is there a frog and a lizard in the foreground of Joven's Ferrets?

Yes...these are full size images to drive this important point home, and make us grateful for what we have today.

 

[James Stevenson]

stinkers like these:

Heard you talking shit about brushwagg >:C Brushwagg's the best. Never seen Joven's Ferrets before, I like that one too. I like weird things.

It wasn't too long ago I posted about this art, but he belongs in this discussion too:

If I recall correctly there are two other art threads and at least one previous thread that derailed into art discussion. Seems Lorwyn art is conversation piece! Well done Wizards!