vs Maybe I could find it on an earlier page but I'm too lazy and the last block introduced a lot of new gy-interactions.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
vs Maybe I could find it on an earlier page but I'm too lazy and the last block introduced a lot of new gy-interactions.
Reclamation then. Next:
vs
Leap seems to be stronger, so I won't put both of them into my cube.
I want the cube to be more balanced, and as I'm playing Vampiric Rites I wonder if I should cut Leap and add Mysteries instead.
vs Leap seems to be stronger, so I won't put both of them into my cube.
I want the cube to be more balanced, and as I'm playing Vampiric Rites I wonder if I should cut Leap and add Mysteries instead.
I found leap a little dull, and Jason's post really mysteries has got my interest.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Uh... I disagree. This all depends on the power level of your cube. Mysteries doesn't require you to hold up mana and makes creatures when you sac a clue, which isn't irrelevant. It's also a lot better against sweepers. I'm not saying it's more powerful than Evolutionary Leap, but to call it really bad and uninteresting... Well, that's just your point of view
oh no A SINGLEUh... I disagree. This all depends on the power level of your cube. Mysteries doesn't require you to hold up mana and makes creatures when you sac a clue, which isn't irrelevant. It's also a lot better against sweepers. I'm not saying it's more powerful than Evolutionary Leap, but to call it really bad and uninteresting... Well, that's just your point of view
!!!even the turns where all you do is cycle Leap are not expensive and you're probably casting spells after combat / they try to pop your war doughnut anyway so the mana efficiency argument is fallacious imo
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
oh no A SINGLE
even the turns where all you do is cycle Leap are not expensive and you're probably casting spells after combat / they try to pop your war doughnut anyway so the mana efficiency argument is fallacious imo
How many games have you lost because you missed a land drop on turn 3? Keeping up a single mana is a real cost in the early to mid turns, and you will simply not be able to deploy your threats as efficiently if you are forced to keep one land untapped all the time. Not to mention the times where you need double green for something with only two green sources out and Leap in play. Of course you aren't required to keep up a green mana, you can also ignore Leap in the early to mid turns and grind out value later, but the fact that Mysteries does not require mana is an advantage. Also, all I implied was that calling Mysteries really bad and uninteresting just because it doesn't interact with tokens is short-sighted. I think Meltyman is ignoring some small advantages and cute interactions Mysteries offers in favor of raw power. Nowhere am I denying that Leap is the more powerful card.
Wouldn't it be super sweet to get them both in play? Porque no los dos?
Well i know how the card worked in the stock draft. It was okay. Not the best. You need 5 mana to gain any value from it and you need a dude of yours dead.
Evolutionary Leap just works. It's pretty close to Survival of the Fittest, not as strong, but Leap has its applications where Survival couldn't be as sweet, since you have a sacrifice outlet from leap.
Also isn't Tireless Tracker just the better version of Mysteries?. Gives you lots of card draw and a threat?
Dom Harvey
Contributor
no, they are completely different cards
also if your mana is constrained such that you can't activate Leap, you're not cracking all those clues God gave you either
also if your mana is constrained such that you can't activate Leap, you're not cracking all those clues God gave you either
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That is true, but those clues stick around for you to crack them on a later turn, unlike a Leap activation.
mea culpa you're totally right
Tracker and Mysteries in my mind tries to outvalue the opponent by gaining card advantage. Tireless Tracker is generating that value more easily, while Mysteries require a lot of setup to be of any use. 1/1s aren't that exceptional in my opinion to go nuts over Evolutionary Leap.
Leap makes your graveyard bigger, makes your opponents removal worse exile or non-exile, always gives you business, can be activated more easily since you can ditch tokens.. the list goes on..
Mysteries could work in a cube with a lower power level, but in a broader sense it's outshadowed by Tireless and Leap.
I really like Mysteries, and although I wouldn't call my cube a powered one, I guess I run Leap over it. Tracker is in there, too.
The next step would be to open a thread for my very own cube on riptidelab. Guess I can't hold it back any more.
The next step would be to open a thread for my very own cube on riptidelab. Guess I can't hold it back any more.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
What a weird discussion between Ulvenvald mysteries and evolutionary leap.
Ulvenvald mysteries can't compete with evo leap in terms of raw mana efficiency. Even in those mana constrained scenarios, evo leap performs better, because it requires less overall mana investment to function. The fact that you might occasionally waste a mana with evo leap by holding a green up, doesn't negate this.
Mysteries, however, is probably better at generating raw card advantage in a long game, unfortunately, there are not a lot of green midrange decks that are going to be natively excited about such a slow, purely card advantage focused gameplan, and the 1/1 bodies it generates to impact the board (while perhaps fine for retail draft or sealed) don't create the sort of meaningful board presence those decks want. Tireless tracker is a variant much more in line with midrange strategies: a meaningful board presence that generates value while negating removal.
Mysteries seems like a great card for retail limited, where format inefficiencies can allow very slow, but creature filled decks, that want chump blockers, and which can be focused on such a purely card advantage focused plan. There just isn't a great role for that sort of card in most cubes (though possibly still a more fringe role), and a lot of the stupid stuff you could do with the card, is negated by it not triggering on token deaths. Most people are probably better off just running tracker.
Ulvenvald mysteries can't compete with evo leap in terms of raw mana efficiency. Even in those mana constrained scenarios, evo leap performs better, because it requires less overall mana investment to function. The fact that you might occasionally waste a mana with evo leap by holding a green up, doesn't negate this.
Mysteries, however, is probably better at generating raw card advantage in a long game, unfortunately, there are not a lot of green midrange decks that are going to be natively excited about such a slow, purely card advantage focused gameplan, and the 1/1 bodies it generates to impact the board (while perhaps fine for retail draft or sealed) don't create the sort of meaningful board presence those decks want. Tireless tracker is a variant much more in line with midrange strategies: a meaningful board presence that generates value while negating removal.
Mysteries seems like a great card for retail limited, where format inefficiencies can allow very slow, but creature filled decks, that want chump blockers, and which can be focused on such a purely card advantage focused plan. There just isn't a great role for that sort of card in most cubes (though possibly still a more fringe role), and a lot of the stupid stuff you could do with the card, is negated by it not triggering on token deaths. Most people are probably better off just running tracker.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah how about a little more sane comparison:
I have thought about slotting in fecundity from time to time as less awkward but downside Grim Haruspex
I have thought about slotting in fecundity from time to time as less awkward but downside Grim Haruspex
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Fecundity sucked for me. The drawback is really, really bad.
If we want to talk about probably-only-decent green enchantments, how about
?
Refardless, I think mysteries is more in the boat with these kind of enchantments than with Leap. Leap is a very proactive tool that can be used in response to things or simply to build hand quality off of, say, Strangleroot geist
?Refardless, I think mysteries is more in the boat with these kind of enchantments than with Leap. Leap is a very proactive tool that can be used in response to things or simply to build hand quality off of, say, Strangleroot geist
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I still wish Greater Good was great or good
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Exactly: the main problem with those cards is that they either can't, or struggle, to proactively do anything, and in a cube world increasingly geared towards casting efficiency (see ETB arguments), paying 3 or more mana into plays that struggle to immediately impact the board state (or doesn't lead to unfair magic), can put you in a precarious position.
Evo leap is cheap enough where it doesn't really inhibit spell velocity too much, and it generates card advantage at a reasonable mana expense.
Evo leap is cheap enough where it doesn't really inhibit spell velocity too much, and it generates card advantage at a reasonable mana expense.
The only thing about Foster I like is putting 'the rest into your graveyard'. Not worth two mana more than Leap, though.