I wasn't actually trying to promote discussion. Sorry
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I wasn't actually trying to promote discussion. Sorry
Laz
Developer
/salt
All cards that probably shouldn't be in cube lists (I suppose that you could make a case for Eidolon)? Or our new Modern overlords?
Though, given this is the Fight Club thread, I would say Eidolon is probably preferable, although it definitely defines your role in the matchup in a similar way to Sulfuric Vortex. The others feel far too narrow, requiring a density of either Artifacts, Eldrazi or Infect creatures/pump that is difficult to obtain in an unthemed list. Wurmcoil has the opposite problem, in that it fits everywhere and is a very strong stabilizer/finisher that is really hard to remove early.
That was my first assumption, but I'm trying to value the better counterplay against this package we almost all seem to value very highly:
gravecrawler
bloodsoaked champion
bloodghast
carrion feeder
doomed traveler
xathrid necromancer
flesh carver
hangarback walker
etc etc.
And as you mentioned, good against kitchen finks and co.
gravecrawler
bloodsoaked champion
bloodghast
carrion feeder
doomed traveler
xathrid necromancer
flesh carver
hangarback walker
etc etc.
And as you mentioned, good against kitchen finks and co.
Most of those cards you mention are black, which means you are likely to be playing some of those as well. If that's the case then you don't want to exile your own creatures.
It's a bit different if you're talking about something like anger of the gods though.
It's a bit different if you're talking about something like anger of the gods though.
I'm not sure that I'd want the "black sac" deck to get this card. Look at all the support the average cube is giving it. Innocent blood? Fleshbag marauder? why not give UB control, GB rock, etc a counterplay card?
EDIT: And if we want to move outside of black more, here we go:
tuktuk the explorer
flamewake pheonix
chandra's pheonix
mogg war marshal
pyreheart wolf
alesha, who smiles at death
loyal cathar
glen elendra archmage
strangleroot geist
All I'm sayin' is:
We got people sayin' that aggro is getting a little too easy. Black sac-aggro is a prominent archetype among our cubes, Infest effects are good against aggro anyway, so why not give a little pushed counterplay to the "easy mode" decks. I think I'll be trying it out at least, but keeping watchful if it should just be DiS.
It's up to you whichever you prefer and how prevalent your recurring creatures are. If you want to balance it then go for the exile effect, but in a vacuum the scry on drown in sorrow is 'better'.
look, Anger of the Gods rules and so does Drown in Sorrow, and the new exile Infest doesn't, it's just cool. The black control deck that's on the back foot against the Gravecrawler deck will be helped by most wraths or pseudo-wraths, but imo the control player is a titch more likely to maindeck Drown in Sorrow, and the scry can help them find a way to interact with the recursive threats anyway. Getting to do that at the same time for sort-of zero mana is huge, but this is still a pretty small edge gained when you consider that now aggro decks don't want Infest. Midrange decks often do real well with a wrath just thrown in for value; one of the coolest things about the graveyard aggro decks is their ability to shrug off their own wraths and therefore play differently some games against, like, tokens, or walls, or whatever.
Right nnw, 'Tider Squadron picks use the AND operator. Drown vs Tendrils makes a compelling case for the OR squadron!
should we also be cubing Hallowed Burial or other ways to up the density of this effect? I was playing Angel of Finality until a little while ago (it's good, I cut it for Resto) and there's just so few Cube-worthy options for maindeckable graveyard hate
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It's also mega lame to hate on all graveyard decks, like ones trying hard to cultivate late game advantage through carefully seeded graveyard value in your cubes, just because it's mega frustrating to deal with endless efficient creatures backed up with removal and some force multiplier like blasting station.
Yeah I dunno wish there was a cuter version of cremate that might be swell, people like their relics too but I'm telling you boys and girls we gotta be careful. Terminus is better but burial is pretty decent too. Exile point removal spells are pretty decent but using a ring to mess with a crawler or a ghast that's been to the grave and back already and taken one of your cards with em. Journey is a fine card but condem path and swords are the real cool customers. Just too bad you can always sac any of them to your bombardment or aristocrat.
Efficient removal is better, though I'm always wary about cards like arc bolt or adding more copies of stuff like swords, but those are certainly the kinda roadblock that helps. I do have to say it makes you feel pretty disappointed to have someone totally neuter your card you drafted to do cool inevitable recursion stuff with but thankfully this won't happen every time. Good blockers help too but the real problem is that these black creatures are free cards and they can be triggering things off them and using removal the free extra attackers can really add up. Don't even get me started on mutavault people.
Try not to force people to fight bloodghasts and swift spears with o rings, demise or tribal flames. It can kinda make a guy lose hope ya dig?
Yeah I dunno wish there was a cuter version of cremate that might be swell, people like their relics too but I'm telling you boys and girls we gotta be careful. Terminus is better but burial is pretty decent too. Exile point removal spells are pretty decent but using a ring to mess with a crawler or a ghast that's been to the grave and back already and taken one of your cards with em. Journey is a fine card but condem path and swords are the real cool customers. Just too bad you can always sac any of them to your bombardment or aristocrat.
Efficient removal is better, though I'm always wary about cards like arc bolt or adding more copies of stuff like swords, but those are certainly the kinda roadblock that helps. I do have to say it makes you feel pretty disappointed to have someone totally neuter your card you drafted to do cool inevitable recursion stuff with but thankfully this won't happen every time. Good blockers help too but the real problem is that these black creatures are free cards and they can be triggering things off them and using removal the free extra attackers can really add up. Don't even get me started on mutavault people.
Try not to force people to fight bloodghasts and swift spears with o rings, demise or tribal flames. It can kinda make a guy lose hope ya dig?
Re: Bloodghasts and such
I'm on team Efficient Removal, so it's not as much of an issue here.
Magma Spray is always an option, too.
Also, just as a general tax on huge armies (token strategies etc.)
I'm on team Efficient Removal, so it's not as much of an issue here.
Magma Spray is always an option, too.
Also, just as a general tax on huge armies (token strategies etc.)
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Flaying Tendrils, but I have a ton of stuff that gives value when it dies and my controlling black decks could use the helps
Eric: cut both, play another Primeval Titan
Eric: cut both, play another Primeval Titan
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Woodland Bellower has been so much fun!
I think I like them both quite a bit but the regrowth is cooler to me. If that card seems low impact and durdly, it's probably because your cube or deck is and you don't have enough interaction putting stuff into the graveyards, or don't have enough efficient plays to even get excited about doing a second time.
Both have been more middling and durdly than I expected or wanted, so I'm looking to cut one of them
I really love the breadth of 2s and 3s you can get with bellower but I think I like consistency big witness offers more, despite how fun it can be to draft around the tutor can also be a liability. Big witness isn't the biggest splash when you play it for six mana but it certainly finds you ways to spend your mana and if your spells aren't utter poop you should you still be at a good advantage even if you have to throw your bro into a trade with polukranos or something.
Plus you guys know I'm the biggest fan of command or X-spell + regrowth on the block. And it makes green control decks so much more possible.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
One of the things I've been noticing with our grid drafts, is that removal density can be very finicky both in the draft and in game. So you can sometimes get decks with, say 3-4 removal pieces, but prone to take a more controlling stance. In that situation, the removal has to be somewhat effective for the games to be good, and if there are too many disruptive tools (either in outright disruption or the quality of the threats), than it becomes difficult (if not impossible) to really warp the game around your removal, which is what a control deck kind of wants to do.
The other scenario, you draft a reasonable removal density, but due to randomness, you end up only seeing a few pieces of it in your game. If your individual removal pieces lack the ability to warp the game around themselves, than you are in a similar spot where you can't really execute your gameplan.
In some of the penny cube grid drafts we've been doing, we've had decks with somewhat lighter removal suites, get into spots where individual spells can still start to warp the game around themselves. Even if your deck is feeding badly, or the draft went kind of weird, you can still get there with high impact spells/strategies like slaughter, recurring executioner's capsule, darkblast, bone shredder tricks, or just mnemonic wall/archaeomancer. The ability to create removal recursion helps make up for those variance issues, and puts the control deck on more equal footing with the value strategies that the aggro or midrange decks can produce.
With a lot of higher power control strategies, the traditional removal piece that warped games around its presence was wrath of god, which just looks so clunky against todays threats.
The other scenario, you draft a reasonable removal density, but due to randomness, you end up only seeing a few pieces of it in your game. If your individual removal pieces lack the ability to warp the game around themselves, than you are in a similar spot where you can't really execute your gameplan.
In some of the penny cube grid drafts we've been doing, we've had decks with somewhat lighter removal suites, get into spots where individual spells can still start to warp the game around themselves. Even if your deck is feeding badly, or the draft went kind of weird, you can still get there with high impact spells/strategies like slaughter, recurring executioner's capsule, darkblast, bone shredder tricks, or just mnemonic wall/archaeomancer. The ability to create removal recursion helps make up for those variance issues, and puts the control deck on more equal footing with the value strategies that the aggro or midrange decks can produce.
With a lot of higher power control strategies, the traditional removal piece that warped games around its presence was wrath of god, which just looks so clunky against todays threats.
Flying vs easier mana cost? More interaction without flying? Which is better? Fight!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Flying vs easier mana cost? More interaction without flying? Which is better? Fight!
This isn't a fair fight imo but i just wanted to post these cards next to each other:
I hate gurmag angler so much you guys. If anyone is running it instead of tasigur because tasi is too good or whatever, please take gurmag angler out of your cube and replace it with muckdraggers. You will thank me later i promise.
Page 56 and onward should be interesting for you. Tombstalker got into the previous fight pretty quick.
That was helpful, thanks.